Public Notice Calling For The Repentance Of Douglas W. Phillips

I’ve been contacted by a number of people, some of them representing various Christian organizations, who have asked me to provide them with a brief one-page statement documenting some of the more serious sins and moral failures of Doug Phillips.

The reason I keep getting asked for this is obvious. Many people who share our concerns about Doug Phillips are referring friends and family and members of their organizations to my blog. However, there’s now so much to read that it can be a bit overwhelming. Having a highly condensed overview of some of the most significant aspects of our Doug Phillips’ story could prove to be a useful tool in “Exposing Doug Phillips’ Ecclesiastical Tyranny.”

If you’d like a pdf version of this Public Notice, suitable for emailing, you can download it here.

Public Notice Calling For The Repentance Of Douglas W. Phillips

List Of Charges:

  1. In 2004, Doug Phillips produced and sold the deceptive documentary, “Raising the Allosaur.” In the video, Mr. Phillips claims that a group of home school families was responsible for “the biggest dinosaur discovery of the year.” So much public controversy arose from the “documentary” that Mr. Phillips pulled it from the market without explanation, in spite of the fact that the video produced significant revenues for Vision Forum, Inc. Mr. Phillips has never repented or even offered a public explanation for the numerous misleading statements and misrepresentations in the video. 1
  2. As a self-appointed, unordained, sole elder of Boerne Christian Assembly, Mr. Phillips pronounced an “excommunication” on a member family of his church in 2005. 2 The “excommunication” was vindictive and appears to have been motivated over a difference in political views. 3 The “trial” was conducted without any due process in what can only be described as a Kangaroo Court. The accused were tried in absentia. No witnesses were called. No defense was afforded the accused. No specific, detailed list of charges was made. No evidence was provided. Any actual valid excommunicable sins had already been repented from, including a pre-conversion sin that had been repented of fifteen years prior. 4 A prominent Pastor has since described the excommunication as “the Salem Witch Trials.” The family has attempted ever since to be reconciled with Mr. Phillips, but he has refused all offers to meet with them, thus confirming his vindictiveness.
  3. After being “excommunicated,” the entire family was shunned, including the family’s children. The children were never charged with any sins. Yet they, too, were punished. One of the daughters had received an award as a runner-up in a Vision Forum writing contest, but Mr. Phillips ordered that her name be removed from the Vision Forum web site.
  4. Doug Phillips is known as a leader in what is known as the “Patriarchy” movement. However, his conduct as a pastor makes it apparent that he is more of a misogynist than a Patriarch. “Let the women keep silent” (1 Cor. 13:34) is taken to such an extreme at BCA that women cannot make prayer requests or even introduce their guests. Women aren’t even permitted to get the elements of the Lord’s Supper for themselves. If their husbands aren’t present, they must be served by another man, or one of her sons, even if that son is too young to take the Lord’s supper himself. Mr. Phillips’ treatment of women is degrading and demeaning, and he does not treat them as fellow heirs of Christ Jesus. 5

Many of Mr. Phillips’ other views and practices are far more than just controversial, they are extremist and unbecoming of a pastor and a well-known Christian spokesman who many look to for godly leadership. 6 This notice calls Mr. Phillips to public repentance and to make restitution to the numerous Christians that he has harmed and offended.

_______________

  1. http://ministrywatchman.com/?p=74
  2. https://jensgems.wordpress.com/2006/12/18/doug-phillips-political-payback
  3. https://jensgems.wordpress.com/2006/12/16/doug-phillips-its-always-the-womans-fault
  4. https://jensgems.wordpress.com/2006/12/18/doug-phillips-excommunicates-by-star-chamber
  5. https://jensgems.wordpress.com/2006/12/12/muzzling-women
  6. https://jensgems.wordpress.com/2007/04/24/home-school-leaders-warned-about-doug-phillips

143 Responses to “Public Notice Calling For The Repentance Of Douglas W. Phillips”

  1. Dave Jones Says:

    Wow.

    Doesn’t proverbs speak of people like you and Mark who are “right in their own eyes?”

  2. ReformedCalvinist Says:

    “Of what sins there were that were valid had already been repented of.”

    You must miss David.

  3. Craig Says:

    Its getting old Jen… Can you please just move on with life? Go find a community that will accept you and let the rest of us buy Phillip’s CDs if we want. Just go get a life and move on, why continue? It isn’t accomplishing anything and Phillips is obviously still doing quite well with his ministry endeavors. He’s an established leader and despite your efforts to bring him to confess (assuming he actually did something), it isn’t working. Admit it, he’s an established successful ministry with a broad market place, and you’re an internet blogger that really just needs to go enjoy their life. Time to relax!

  4. Corrie Says:

    RC,

    What do you mean? Who is David? Who misses him? And why do they miss him?

  5. Lynn Says:

    I for one am looking forward not only to reading Jen’s blog, but there is an apologetics ministry that has been around for years that I’ve just heard is devoting their next journal, and perhaps subsequent journals to the Patriarchy movement, and I am looking forward to reading that journal as well.

    I would also like to know what the comment about David refers to, RC

  6. Lynn Says:

    I don’t understand Craig. Apparently, many people wanted the Cliff notes of this blog, and Jen provided them. If it’s getting old for you, just skip it, but it’s news to some, apparently.

    Speaking of Doug’s current visibility, here are two links I found:

    http://www.homeschoolbookfair.org/speakers.html
    http://www.homeschoolbookfair.org/program.html

  7. J Says:

    Concerning this blog…

    John 8:7 …He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone…

    Proverbs 10:18 He that hideth hatred with lying lips, and he that uttereth a slander, is a fool.

    1 Timothy 2:9 In like manner also, that women adorn themselves in modest apparel, with shamefacedness and sobriety; not with broided hair, or gold, or pearls, or costly array;
    10 But (which becometh women professing godliness) with good works.
    11 Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection.
    12 But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.
    13 For Adam was first formed, then Eve.
    14 And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression.

    Matthew 7:18 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.
    19 Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
    20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.
    21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
    22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
    23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

  8. Cynthia Gee Says:

    John 8:7 …He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone…

    Well, J, I think it was Doug who did that, when he “excommunicated” the Epsteins. But I really don’t think that he would go so far as to claim sinless perfection… would he?

  9. Cynthia Gee Says:

    “Proverbs 10:18 He that hideth hatred with lying lips, and he that uttereth a slander, is a fool.”

    J… Jen hasn’t slandered anyone, so you obviously aren’t aiming this Scriptural dart at them. That being said, it isn’t nice to call ANYONE a fool, especially your own cohorts.

  10. Cynthia Gee Says:

    “1 Timothy 2:9 In like manner also, that women adorn themselves in modest apparel, with shamefacedness and sobriety; not with broided hair, or gold, or pearls, or costly array;10 But (which becometh women professing godliness) with good works.”

    I wonder if pool houses, maids, and nannies are kind of like costly array….

  11. Cynthia Gee Says:

    “11 Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection.
    12 But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.
    13 For Adam was first formed, then Eve.
    14 And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression.”

    Really, it doesn’t matter whether it was Jen or Mark who was first decieved by the hyperpatriarchal heresy at Bourne. The important thing is that they are telling the truth about it now to EVERYONE, to keep any other sheep from wandering over thataway and ending up as Bourne mutton.

  12. Cynthia Gee Says:

    “Matthew 7:18 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.
    19 Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
    20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.”

    Concerning the fruits of hyperPatriachy , one word:
    ….. Rivendell.

  13. Cynthia Gee Says:

    21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
    22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
    23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity..

    And your point is? I haven’t seen the Epsteins going around trying to do “many wonderful works”, or prophesying, or casting out devils (though they have shined a light on some devillish behavior and some heretical beliefs.) You have the wrong Bible story.

    The Epsteins are more like the widow in this parable:

    Luk 18:2 Saying, There was in a city a judge, which feared not God, neither regarded man: Luk 18:3 And there was a widow in that city; and she came unto him, saying, Avenge me of mine adversary. Luk 18:4 And he would not for a while: but afterward he said within himself, Though I fear not God, nor regard man; Luk 18:5 Yet because this widow troubleth me, I will avenge her, lest by her continual coming she weary me. ”

    …only in this case, the “widow’s” adversary IS the judge, and he’s not a judge, he’s a lawyer.

    Nil desperandum, fortis est veritas.

  14. Jen Says:

    Dave, Craig, and J – you must misunderstand what I’m doing here. I am calling Doug Phillips to repentance for public sins that affect, or may eventually affect, a large number of people. When you call someone to repentance, it is important that you name specific sins. Some on this blog have asked me to name them specifically, so I have done so.

    All along, I have stated that I have not been informed of my specific sins. Stating vague, general allegations is not enough to call someone to repentance. I cannot repent of “categories” of sin. If I was informed of my specific actions that were sinful, then I would repent. But I can’t repent, because I don’t know what to repent from. I am not claiming sinless perfectionism; I am asking to know what I’ve done wrong.

    So, this particular article is an example of how it should be done when calling someone to repentance. I am calling Doug Phillips to repentance here. He says he is calling me to repentance also. So all I am asking is that he do the same thing I have done here – describe my sins.

    RC, please explain yourself.

    CJ, your biblical exposition is HOT tonight!

  15. K. Says:

    moral failures . . . .

    en:

    I have “moral failures” – I would like to not have them documented . . .

  16. Jen Says:

    K, I have moral failures, too, and if my moral failures are grave enough to be excommunicated for, I would really like to have them documented. See the difference?

  17. Cynthia Gee Says:

    “CJ, your biblical exposition is HOT tonight!”
    Eh…I dunno. Some women have hot flashes and night sweats, I sit up all night burning up the keyboard. 😛

  18. J Says:

    I do not believe it is your responsibility to broadcast to the world someone’s faults, plus provide a forum for discussion on that point. You invite gossip, slander, and dissension on this blog.

    If you and your husband felt that your church elder was in error, you bring a rebuke on the basis of 2 or 3 witnesses. You lack that, as your situation was based on unanimous vote.

    You have appealed to other authorities concerning this. They don’t support you.

    That leaves you with two choices.

    The first is that perhaps you are right. You have stated your case to your authorities and they are wrong, but continue on their way. Is murmuring and complaining your response? No, I think God is big enough to take up the wrongs done to someone else and do something about it. Your response should be prayer, and leave it in His hands. If He is who the Bible says He is, He will deal justly with those who have wronged you. (“…will not the judge of the earth do right?”). You are not the Holy Spirit. Let the Holy Spirit convict of sin and do the dealing with people. If God wants the sin broadcast to the world, He will do it (look what He did to Israel).

    The second is that you are wrong. Based on those authorities and people directly associated with this problem, the case does not favor you. If you are wrong, you need to perform some self evaluation, while ceasing from this activity, because you will certainly reap what you are sowing.

    Consider the counsel of Jonathan Edwards concerning self evaluation:

    Always join self-reflection with your reading and hearing of God’s Word. When you read the Bible or hear sermons, reflect on yourself, comparing your own ways with what you read or hear. Ponder what agreement or disagreement there is between the Word and your ways. …[W]hen you read the commandments given by Christ and His apostles, ask yourself, Do I live according to this rule? Or do I live in any way contrary to it?

    If you do things that are generally avoided by people who are discerning and mature, be especially careful to ask yourself if such activities might actually be sinful. Perhaps you have argued with yourself that such and such a practice is lawful; you don’t see any evil in it. But if the thing is generally condemned by godly people, it certainly looks suspicious. You may be wise to consider conscientiously whether it is actually displeasing to God. If a practice is generally disapproved of by those who in such cases are most likely to be right, you ought to consider all the more carefully whether the thing in question is lawful or unlawful.

    Ask yourself whether on your deathbed you will have pleasant memories of the way you have lived. Ask yourself solemnly…whether you are doing anything now that might trouble you on your deathbed. Think over your ways and test yourself with the sobering expectation of soon going out of the world into eternity. Earnestly endeavor to judge impartially what things you will be glad for on a deathbed—as well as what you will disapprove of, and wish you had left alone.

    Consider what others may say of you. Although people are blind to their own faults, they easily discover the faults of others—and are apt enough to speak of them. Sometimes people live in ways that are not at all appropriate, yet they are blind to it themselves. They do not see their own shortcomings, though the faults are perfectly plain and evident to others. They themselves cannot see their failings, yet others cannot shut their eyes or avoid seeing where they fall short. So when we hear of others talking against us behind our backs, no matter what the spirit of the criticism, the right response is to reflect upon ourselves, and consider whether we indeed are guilty of the faults they lay to our charge.

    When you see others’ faults, examine whether you have the same deficiencies in yourself. Too many people are ready to speak of others’ faults when they have the very same shortcomings. Nothing is more common than for proud men to accuse others of pride. Likewise it is common for dishonest men to complain of being wronged by others. Therefore when you see others’ faults, when you notice how someone else acts amiss, what an unkind attitude he shows, or how unsuitable her behavior is, when you hear others speak of it, or when you find fault with others in their dealings with you—reflect. Consider whether there is any similar shortcoming in your own conduct or attitude.

    Consider how others are blind to their own sins, and ask yourself if you suffer from the same kind of blindness. You know that others are blinded by their lusts. Could it be that some carnal appetite or lust of the mind has blinded you? You see how others are blinded by their worldliness. Ask whether your own attachment to this world might be blinding you in a way that causes you to justify things in your life that are not right. You are as prone to be blinded by sinful desires as others. You have the same deceitful and desperately wicked heart. “As in water face reflects face, so the heart of man reflects man” (Prov. 27:19).

  19. Jen Says:

    RC, I figured out your comment. Yes, I miss David, so I have employed another means of taking care of those pesky situations!

  20. Lynn Says:

    “I do not believe it is your responsibility to broadcast to the world someone’s faults, plus provide a forum for discussion on that point. You invite gossip, slander, and dissension on this blog.”

    If this were a private matter, I would agree with you, but this isn’t a private matter. An excommunication is a public thing, and Doug wants Mark and Jen to not just go away quietly. He wants them to make other churches aware of it when they try to join. This is because he wants all churches to uphold his excommunication pronouncement and not ignore it.

    So Mark and Jen have the freedom to discuss this. Tough luck for Doug! He’s the public figure who made this a public matter first.

    Furthermore, I have read through Joe Taylor’s statements, what Ed Watt said about the first arbitration agreement, and my conclusion is that Doug’s documentaray was indeed a “fakumentary,” and I am GLAD that people are being told about this. For those who purchased the video, the record ought to have been set straight not swept under a rug, and for those who didn’t buy it but are interested in Creation matters, it is good to be warned about “stuff” like this going on.

  21. Esther Says:

    “I do not believe it is your responsibility to broadcast to the world someone’s faults, plus provide a forum for discussion on that point. You invite gossip, slander, and dissension on this blog.”

    Lynn beat me to this one but I would like to add that this is not about ‘faults’ as if DP overeats or something. It is much more serious. It is about false teaching and spirital abuse. Because DP is a public person (by choice) not only as a pastor but also as a businessman who markets his brand of ‘Christianity’ as a lifestyle it is imperative that Christians be warned.

  22. Esther Says:

    “If you and your husband felt that your church elder was in error, you bring a rebuke on the basis of 2 or 3 witnesses. You lack that, as your situation was based on unanimous vote.”

    J, BCA is a cult. If you go there…you need to really understand that.

    Just consider this: Do you know of other pastors who have colleagues of such character as Mrs. Bino and Fed Up? If you do, then run away as fast as you can.

  23. K. Says:

    Jen et al:

    Vision Forum is “alive and well” – you have not “squelched” patriarchy nor been able to add many people onto your side. I am thankful our family support this invaluable ministry. Please notice the comment from the VF blog regarding the Jamestown Quad for the week of June 11-15. :

    We are blessed and overwhelmed by the outpouring of response from America to our Jamestown Quadricentennial. At this point, we have several thousands of registrants and have reached maximum capacity for our week-long pass.

  24. Esther Says:

    K wrote: Vision Forum is “alive and well” – you have not “squelched” patriarchy nor been able to add many people onto your side.”

    Unfortuantly, Islam and Mormanism are growing, too. Numbers have NEVER been an indicator of truth…i.e. Noah or Lot.

  25. Lynn Says:

    K, I agree with Esther. Getting into a battle of “we have more on our side than you do” kind of makes me think of the crowd standing around when Jesus was sentenced to crucifixion. Not a good idea of yours to talk about numbers and financial success, as though these things are of much account in God’s eyes.

    I agree with Esther’s point. There are many missionaries in Islamic nations, and I know of a retired missionary where a Moslem man told him he was unsuccessful in converting the nation he was serving (a hospital ministry). I forget exactly what Jerry shared back with the man, but it was priceless. I *think* Jerry said, “And as long as I’ve been here, I still love Jesus and am serving him, and you haven’t converted me, either, so there!” It was meant to be a light-hearted riposte, not nasty at all, and I think the man who said that to this man was a friend of his in fact.

    They *were* used by God to save some in that country, but not the millions, that’s all.

  26. Esther Says:

    This is off topic of this particular article (or is it?) but has anyone else seen this site about the deception around ‘Raising the Allosaur” documentary?

    http://dinodeception.com/

  27. Mark Epstein Says:

    K.,

    I don’t know from whence you obtained your Jamestown quote, but I have it on pretty good authority that Doug said there are another 700-800 vacancies available – and that was yesterday in Dallas.

  28. Mark Epstein Says:

    Esther,

    Yes! I visited the site this morning. Chapters 1 and 2 are currently available. 🙂

  29. Praying For Reconciliation Says:

    J, thanks so much for the Jonathan Edwards quote. Excellent, excellent counsel, and something that each of us should take to heart.

    You know, as I read the commentary and Bible verses posted by you, and K, and Lucy and Ann, and others, I know that you all mean well and that you really believe it all applies to Jen, and only to Jen. But you’re completely missing the fact that it often doesn’t apply very well to her at all. You’re making big assumptions that lead you to believe that it applies to her, but assumptions are dangerous because they’re often wrong. You’re also making assumptions in ignoring the fact that the very Scriptures and commentary that you try to apply to the Epsteins in reality actually applies to Doug Phillips. Again, assumptions are dangerous, and you should make more effort to discern how your Scripture quoting and commentary actually does apply extremely well to Doug Phillips, and not well at all to Jen.

    Isn’t what you’re doing exactly what Jesus condemned the Pharisees for? Preaching God’s living Word in a dishonest and misdirected way such that they turned it into dead letter?

  30. Lynn Says:

    Esther, thanks for the link.

  31. K. Says:

    Mark – check out the VF blog. It is on there – I took it directly from that.

  32. K. Says:

    And by the way, I believe they still have spots left it says on the blog as well. I was merely pointing out that is going to be quite the crowd in Jamestown.

  33. Lynn Says:

    Jen, there was some discussion of your letter to homeschool leaders on this Yahoo group. The conversation took place at the end of April, and I chimed in with my two cents today:

    http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HEM-Networking/

  34. Praying For Reconciliation Says:

    Wow, Jen! Your blog is once again on the WordPress Top Blogs Of The Day list. #87 today.

  35. Jen Says:

    K, I’m pleased to hear that Doug’s hard work and promotional efforts for the Jamestown 400 are paying off. I wish him success, not only for the Jamestown 400 but success with Vision Forum in general.

    If anyone thinks that I’d want to see Vision Forum experience a downturn in business, they’d be wrong. I’ve never suggested that anyone not patronize Vision Forum, and I won’t do that. I don’t think that’s my place. If I thought that was my place then I would have tried to organize a Vision Forum boycott of their products a long time ago. I haven’t done that and I don’t plan to.

    If the Jamestown 400 actually does have thousands of participants then I think that’s great!

  36. Mark Epstein Says:

    Praying for Reconciliation said: “You’re also making assumptions in ignoring the fact that the very Scriptures and commentary that you try to apply to the Epsteins in reality actually applies to Doug Phillips.”

    An outstanding observation. Phillips was given ample opportunity to come clean about the excommunication. Thus far, he has refused all private and public efforts and the private efforts took place long before we went public.

    I completely agree with Jen; we have no animosity toward Doug Phillips that would cause us to wish his business harm, because we are more interested in his spiritual estate. Doug has sinned greviously as a shepherd and, as the scriptures tell us, he is far more accountable for his actions than Jen or I.

    We cannot get around this fact: Regardless of what sin we are accused of committing, Phillips (1) had to document specifics and (2) provide us a trial. He has done neither, which negates his little foray into Star Chamber decisions.

    As long as Doug persists in his refusal to repent for his outrageous conduct, then this blog and my blog will remain alive and well.

    Phillips is reaping what he sowed during a bogus excommunication. To discontinue the reaping, he needs to repent and make restitution. It really is that simple.

  37. Lucy Says:

    PFR: “…as I read the commentary and Bible verses posted by you, and K, and Lucy and Ann, and others, I know that you all mean well and that you really believe it all applies to Jen, and only to Jen. But you’re completely missing the fact that it often doesn’t apply very well to her at all.”

    PFR, on the contrary, my posts have stated repeatedly that these verses apply to all of us. If you remember, they were verses that reflected a rather important tone in scripture — which is the responsibility to look at yourself first, and the command to live in peace. I do NOT belie the importance of shepherds being held accountable for their actions, but as J so perfectly put it, this is not (ultimately) your responsibility. The power belongs to the Holy Spirit. If you’re right before God, the truth will come out in the end. The commands to peace, forgiveness, and introspection apply to ALL Christians. Jen is not exempt from them, and for every verse you quote about “exposing” people, I can quote five more that stress the importance of peace. It’s a pretty astonishing ratio when you pause to look at it.

    To me, this clearly shows that while God is very serious about the conduct of the shepherd, he is also equally serious about the conduct of the flock. Do not take power from the Holy Spirit.

    Mark: “Doug has sinned greviously as a shepherd and, as the scriptures tell us, he is far more accountable for his actions than Jen or I.”

    Mark, the scriptures also say that GOD will be the one to hold Doug accountable. You are responsible for you. Please be careful.

  38. K. Says:

    Lucy: What you stated was very eloquent. I agree with you wholeheartedly that there are more scriptures about peace vs. exposing people.

  39. K. Says:

    Jen – what is up with the comment RC made and your response? Are talking Mr. Linton? What pesky situation are you referring to?

  40. Cynthia Gee Says:

    K. wrote, “Lucy: What you stated was very eloquent. I agree with you wholeheartedly that there are more scriptures about peace vs. exposing people.”

    K., that is true, and Lucy was right when she said, “The power belongs to the Holy Spirit. If you’re right before God, the truth will come out in the end.”

    But the Holy Spirit works through the people in whom It indwells, and for Truth to come out, someone must be willing to stand up and witness to the Truth. Jesus “said there’d be days like this”, 😉 —
    He said, in Mat 10:34 ¶ “Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword. For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law. And a man’s foes [shall be] they of his own household. He that loveth father or mother more than me is not worthy of me: and he that loveth son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me. “

    As for peace, we get what we are willing to pay for.
    TRUE peace is rare and tends to be hard-won, usually at considerable personal cost to those who are brave enough to stand against lies and injustice.
    Then there is counterfeit peace, the cheap knock-off of the real thing, which is had for little cost by men who cry “peace at all costs”…. such cheap “peace” forms the stock in trade for every petty bully and two-bit dictator that comes down the pike.

  41. Jen Says:

    K: “what is up with the comment RC made and your response? Are talking Mr. Linton? What pesky situation are you referring to?”

    K, I made some grammatical errors and RC made a joke about them. That is the “pesky situation” I was referring to, in a joking way!

    Lucy: “for every verse you quote about “exposing” people, I can quote five more that stress the importance of peace. It’s a pretty astonishing ratio when you pause to look at it.”

    Yes, it is quite astonishing! That tells me that we should be exposing a whole lot more sin, at a rate of 1:5. We obviously have way too much peace in the church, tolerating way too much sin. Be careful in using numbers this way, Lucy. Your logic trail can be used against you just as easily.

    I know what you are trying to say about balancing peace and exposing sin. There definitely should be a balance there. And it is the rare circumstance that I would either recommend or advocate doing what I am doing here. But remember that Scripture clearly does provide for exposing these deeds of darkness, especially when it involves a wolf in sheep’s clothing. And there are half a dozen examples in the New Testament of this very thing being done. Yes, this is a very hard thing, a very painful thing, but a very needful process as well. I pray for the perseverance to continue until God brings forth fruit, whatever fruit He deems appropriate here.

  42. Cynthia Gee Says:

    People, you all really ought to go over to watchman and read the new comments on Raising the Allosaur. It about blew my socks off when somebody pointed out that Visionforum was charging folks $1,000 a piece to go on a dig!
    Think about that — $1,000 a head?????
    Given the fact that most homeschooling families are rather large, if Mom, Dad, and 8 kids went on a dig, they would be shelling out $10,000!!!
    A wise man once told me that whenever something was going on that didn’t seem quite right, but you couldn’t quite put your finger on WHY it seemed fishy, all you had to do was to look around to see who was making money off of the situation and you would likely find the explanation for its occurrence.
    This explains a lot of things….

  43. Esther Says:

    Cynthia, Out of the 1000.00 per head he gave Creation Institute just 175.00!

    Nice profit and it was not even his land..I would say that DP is quite the hustler. He sure has been making a nice profit off homeschoolers.

  44. Cynthia Gee Says:

    Hmmph. Sort of helps explain Doug’s support of movements like Quiverfull, too.

    He’s asking $1000 a head for these digs, and if only one parent and one child attend out of a family they will pay $2000 for the day’s entertainment. That’s an entire month’s income, before taxes, for a person who earns $12.50 an hour. It’s obvious that Visionforum, its message and its products are aimed primarily at young professional families — the new Christian aristocracy — and not toward the Church as a whole.

  45. Lucy Says:

    Jen — I’m not sure I understand what you said, there. I was talking about how many times the saints are called to unity and peace as opposed to how many times they are called to expose false teachers. Both need to happen, but there are undeniably MANY more commands to peace…. how did you come away with, “We obviously have way too much peace in the church, tolerating way too much sin.”?

    Could you give me some scripture that would speak against having “too much peace” in a church? Even if someone needs to be rebuked, do you not believe there’s a peaceful way to do it?

  46. Cynthia Gee Says:

    Lucy, there IS such a thing as too much peace. It’s an attitude, called “peace at all costs”, and it allows evil men to get away with all kinds of stuff because good men are unwilling to disturb the peace and call a spade a spade.
    It is true that the Bible calls us to peace much more often that it calls us to “expose evil”, but if we DO hold our peace at the time when we should speak out, the result is no less disastrous for the rarity of the situation.

    Ecc 3:1 ¶ To every [thing there is] a season, and a time to every purpose under the heaven: A time to be born, and a time to die; a time to plant, and a time to pluck up [that which is] planted; A time to kill, and a time to heal; a time to break down, and a time to build up; A time to weep, and a time to laugh; a time to mourn, and a time to dance; A time to cast away stones, and a time to gather stones together; a time to embrace, and a time to refrain from embracing; A time to get, and a time to lose; a time to keep, and a time to cast away; A time to rend, and a time to sew; a time to keep silence, and a time to speak; A time to love, and a time to hate; a time of war, and a time of peace.

  47. Lynn Says:

    Lucy, why in the world are people like the John the Baptist, the Apostle John, and Paul allowed by God to talk about the sin of others, naming them, but the Epsteins can’t?

    Your reasoning about how many times peace is mentioned in Scripture doesn’t convince me that the Epsteins aren’t free to talk about what happened to them in this instance, after all the other venues they have tried. And as I just commented in another thread, you still haven’t dealt with Paul talking about Alexander — warning about him — to my satisfaction.

    And Lucy, I’m sure others have pointed this out, but why don’t you just follow your own advice? You are being divisive here, and are attempting to warn, and expose, the Epsteins on Jen’s own blog, for crying out loud! Can’t you see how hypocritical this looks??? Why not just walk away and pray for the Epsteins, Lucy?

  48. Lucy Says:

    Fair question, Lynn. I suppose my concern is for the public format, and consequently, the number of people (some of whom I’ve met) who have no context for Doug, or hyperpatriarchy, or the whole Epstein situation, who are stumbling across this blog and getting very confused because of it. My hope is to provide the truths of scripture as a whole…. and hopefully, an alternative resolution for the Epsteins.

  49. Morgan Farmer Says:

    Lucy: “for every verse you quote about “exposing” people, I can quote five more that stress the importance of peace. It’s a pretty astonishing ratio when you pause to look at it.”

    Jen: “Yes, it is quite astonishing! That tells me that we should be exposing a whole lot more sin, at a rate of 1:5. We obviously have way too much peace in the church, tolerating way too much sin. Be careful in using numbers this way, Lucy. Your logic trail can be used against you just as easily.”

    Lucy: “Jen — I’m not sure I understand what you said, there. I was talking about how many times the saints are called to unity and peace as opposed to how many times they are called to expose false teachers. Both need to happen, but there are undeniably MANY more commands to peace…. how did you come away with, “We obviously have way too much peace in the church, tolerating way too much sin.”?

    Lucy, Jens comment about too much peace was made in the context of your comment using the 1 verse for exposing people versus the 5 verses calling for peace. That is why Jen added the ADDITIONAL COMMENT FOLLOWING :”be careful in using numbers this way Lucy…”. You pulled out one phrase of Jens comment and totally made it something that it was not.

    Your use of the 1:5 ratio in a perverse way actually SUPPORTED Jens tongue in cheek response. It’s the very abundance or ‘ratio’ if you will….of these ‘peace verses’ that the bullies use against those that speak out against church tyranny.

    Of course there are ‘peaceful’ ways to rebuke a person…we all know this but just because the peace verse ratio is greater seems to me to be throwing the baby out with the bath water. Christ certainly did not lay His life down for the peace of the church. He laid it down for the payment of our sins.

    May I reccommend Bonhoeffers :”The Cost of Discipleship” for a treatise on ‘cheap grace’.

    Excerpt below from: http://www.crossroad.to/Persecution/Bonhoffer.html

    “Cheap grace is the deadly enemy of our Church. We are fighting today for costly grace.
    Cheap grace means grace as a doctrine, a principle, a system. It means forgiveness of sins proclaimed as a general truth, the love of God taught as the Christian “conception” of God. 45

    Cheap grace means the justification of sin without the justification of the sinner. Grace alone does everything they say, and so everything can remain as it was before. “All for sin could not atone.” Well, then, let the Christian live like the rest of the world, let him model himself on the world’s standards in every sphere of life, and not presumptuously aspire to live a different life under grace from his old life under sin. That was the heresy of the enthusiasts, the Anabaptists and their kind…. 46 ”

    Happy Monday 🙂 !!!! Best, Morgan

  50. Lucy Says:

    Regarding Paul and Alexander: I did address your example when it was originally mentioned, and I said that it was valid. I just didn’t see these two situations as being similar enough to justify it. I’m just not comfortable comparing the Epsteins to Paul and John the Baptist. I’m sorry if that isn’t to your satisfaction, Lynn, but I really don’t know what else to say about it.

  51. Lucy Says:

    Thank you, Morgan. I love Bonhoeffer, and I realize grace comes at a cost. Again, I do not believe that the Epsteins are in the wrong to challenge Doug. I’m just questioning the public format. I don’t believe the good it has done outweighs the confusion it has caused, or the strife it invites.

    “If any of you has a dispute with another, dare he take it before the ungodly for judgment instead of before the saints?”

  52. Cynthia Gee Says:

    “If any of you has a dispute with another, dare he take it before the ungodly for judgment instead of before the saints?”

    Lucy, that verse is talking about settling things in the Church rather than in the civil courts, AND I think that most of the people who read this blog are Christians anyway.

    Sure, some non-Christians read it too, just as they might “visit” at a church service; but whether they see us airing dirty linen in real time or in E-time, at least they’ll learn that REAL Christians DO deal with dirty linen, rather than shoving it under the bed and pretending it doesn’t exist.

    Hypocrites tend to run out of clean sheets REALLY fast, don’tchaknow…

  53. Lucy Says:

    Cynthia, I understand what you’re saying, but I still think it’s a risk not worth taking.

    …and I know for a fact that there are several non-Christians reading this sit.

  54. Lucy Says:

    …site. 🙂

  55. Cynthia Gee Says:

    😀 Gee, tanks…

  56. Cynthia Gee Says:

    I do hope that there are more than a few nonChristians reading this site. NonChristians tend sometimes to view us as a bunch of self-righteous Pharisees who believe all kinds of crazy stuff, and who would like nothing better than to take over the country and run it like a 21st century Plymouth Colony (gee, do ya think they’ve been exposed to reconstructionist-think? Hmmm…) The fact that orthodox conservative Christians are coming out against the reconstructionist heresy and all of this hyperPatriarchal B(ologna)S(ausage) just might convince some of them that they should
    investigate Christianity further.

  57. Morgan Farmer Says:

    Lucy says:
    “If any of you has a dispute with another, dare he take it before the ungodly for judgment instead of before the saints?”

    Morgan:
    Jen is not asking for any kind of judgement here on this site. Jen is not taking the stand that she has the authority to judge she is taking the discernment stand. Discerning that Doug Phillips has shown himself to be less than honest and forthright in his dealings in different areas of his life and philosophy.

    Discernment is not judgement.

  58. Edwin the Calvinist Anglican Says:

    If the Jamestown event is ANYTHING like the History of the World Conference from last year, two things will occur:

    1. Heavy doses of Theonomy will be flowing…and
    2. Lots of people will be treated to hours of the sound of Doug Phillips’ voice, whether they want to or not.

    Paying good money for something like this is bad stewardship, in my opinion.

    Edwin the Calvinistic Anglican

  59. T. Reformed Says:

    “My hope is to provide the truths of scripture as a whole”

    Lucy, why would you even consider yourself the least bit qualified to “provide the truths of scripture”? You’re not any more qualified to expound Scripture than you are to know God’s will for Jen. All you’ve done is provide your poorly reasoned personal opinions in a perpetual stream of redundancy. What little Scripture that you have provided has been twisted and contorted to fit your uninformed personal opinions. You need to conform your opinions to the Word, not twist Scripture to conform with your opinions.

    “…. and hopefully, an alternative resolution for the Epsteins.”

    So when will that be happening, Lucy? When are you going to provide this “alternative resolution for the Epsteins”? I don’t want to hear any more of your Scripture contorting, but I’d love to see your “alternative resolution.”

    We’re all eagerly awaiting the formal announcement of “The Lucy Alternative Resolution Plan.”

  60. Jen Says:

    Lucy: “I suppose my concern is for the public format, and consequently, the number of people (some of whom I’ve met) who have no context for Doug, or hyperpatriarchy, or the whole Epstein situation, who are stumbling across this blog and getting very confused because of it. My hope is to provide the truths of scripture as a whole…. and hopefully, an alternative resolution for the Epsteins.”

    Lucy, this is not about us. We are only one small part of the story. This site is not about telling my story, but exposing Doug Phillips. If we were to reconcile with Doug Phillips at this point, it would have to involve his repentance for all the other abuses he has heaped upon other people as well. I know LOTS of stories, Lucy, about how Doug abuses fellow believers, and I also understand why people are afraid to speak out. I am here as one voice speaking out for the many. Even if I were 100% wrong in what I did, the point would still be that we are calling Doug to repentance for a pattern of behavior toward many people.

    So, Lucy, I just don’t see how there could be an alternative pattern for the Epsteins. We cannot quietly reconcile with Doug Phillips and pretend like everything will be all right. This is a public sin, a public pattern, and the public needs to be warned. The longer this goes on, Lucy, the more public it will become, just by the very nature of this blog remaining up. Yes, Lucy, I still have a responsibility to warn others, and will continue to do so until God clearly leads me otherwise.

  61. Morgan Farmer Says:

    This is a post of Lucys from a previous blog post by Jen, it was made this AM.

    Lucy Says: (from DP School of Logical Fallacies)
    May 14th, 2007 at 9:14 am
    T.R. – If you could provide even one example of how I’ve ridiculed, heckled or mocked Jen, I’d be happy to apologize for it. I don’t believe I have. Those were unfortunate comments to make about me.

    I’ve never said that I know the full extent of God’s will for Jen’s life. I’m talking about God’s will for ALL of us. The specific prescription He has given us for how Christians are to behave is clearly spelled out. I think we can know His will by studying the whole of scripture, and not just the parts that agree with our agenda. This is why I accept the importance of calling out false teachers, but with methods that have been compared to the commands in scripture.

    This is also why I can’t give you the step-by-step syllabus for what Jen should do. I believe it will involve more time in prayer and the Lord will handle the particulars.

    I can, however, tell you what I would have done……

    Day 1:

    – I call BCA and ask if I can visit.
    – They tell me “no”.
    – I pray for them and their unfortunate attitude of separatism.
    – I attend somewhere else, and encourage others to do the same if they ask me.

    This way I have not ignored the commands against sitting under false teachings, I have warned others in an appropriate way, I have caused no confusion or divisiveness in a church body (let alone two other churches), and I’ve been peaceful.

    The Epsteins are much deeper into the problem, but I still believe it’s never too late to quiet down and pray. The public has been warned against Doug. It’s time to let the Holy Spirit take over. In my opinion, of course.

    Morgan says: Lets talk about ‘context again’.

    Lucy Dear…first let me say I mostly disagree with just about everything you have posted on this website. Your latest post(s) though are not just a bit too much to ignore. The post I copied and pasted above gives all of us a better insight into how you are thinking.

    Context: How should other people solve their problems? The way that suits their needs. Not the way(s) that suit ours and thats what this posts shows. That you firmly believe that Jen & Mark need to solve their problems the way you would have. You firmly beleive that you have it all figured out as far as showing them the way.

    As In your comment above:” My hope is to provide the truths of scripture as a whole…. and hopefully, an alternative resolution for the Epsteins.”

    Why do you feel the need to provide an alternative for the solution to their issue(s) with Doug Phillips for them? Why do you feel the need to provide the ‘truth of scripture” for them? How is it that you have taken up this great burden for yourself?

    What qualification(s) do you bring to the table that Mark & Jen should heed your advice? In other words…who made YOU the beginning and the end of all knowledge in the universe regarding peace in the church and conflict resolution? That’s what you are holding yourself up as…the penultimate answer for ALL of us here participating in this discussion.

    THAT dear is completely wrong. People do not all solve problems the same way. People do not deal with life and church issues the same way. I actually dealt with MY Church situation in much the way you would have. Does that make me the decision maker and guide for Mark & Jen????

    Certainly NOT!!!!!

    You claim above that you don’t know Gods will for all of us….

    “I’ve never said that I know the full extent of God’s will for Jen’s life. I’m talking about God’s will for ALL of us.”

    But by the very ACT of admionishing Mark & Jen because they are not doing what YOU would have done….you hold out to them and to the rest of us that you DO KNOW GODS WILL for Mark, Jen and everyone else here in this little group, and that we had all better step in line because Lucy is here and she has her stick!

  62. K. Says:

    Lucy, this is not about us. We are only one small part of the story. This site is not about telling my story, but exposing Doug Phillips. If we were to reconcile with Doug Phillips at this point, it would have to involve his repentance for all the other abuses he has heaped upon other people as well. I know LOTS of stories, Lucy, about how Doug abuses fellow believers, and I also understand why people are afraid to speak out. I am here as one voice speaking out for the many. Even if I were 100% wrong in what I did, the point would still be that we are calling Doug to repentance for a pattern of behavior toward many people.
    Jen by the words above maybe you better examine what Morgan just wrote to Lucy. Who made YOU the beginning and the end of all knowledge in the universe regarding bring someone to repentance in such a public manner?
    MOrgan I suggest you hand Jen that stick and we all step back . . . everything said on this blog can be pointed right back to ourselves.
    Do me a favor go to the mirror and point the finger in the mirror, look at your hand and how many fingers are pointing back at you (I mean this to ALL of us) – my husband loves this example.

  63. Lynn Says:

    K, Jen has shared BCA documents which, as I understand it, break the laws of Texas. She has also shared on here advice given to wives who are struggling in abusive and potentially violent situations, and it is my firm belief that the advice given was very bad advice.

    These are items of public interest.

    Mark and Jen both state they were not at their trial, and what they described sounds like a gross mockery of what justice should be.

    And Jen has also ventured to write about “Raising the Allosaur” and Joe Taylor’s attempt to deal with Phillips here.

    And what has Lucy done? When Jen wrote about these things, Lucy has basically said Jen’s heart isn’t right and what she is doing is going against the Bible and she shouldn’t be doing it.

    My response to Lucy is the same as I would talk about Matt Chancey — by Lucy’s own argumentation and reasoning (which I don’t agree with), then Lucy shouldn’t be posting here, either.

    But I don’t agree with Lucy’s reasoning to Jen. Jen has the freedom to share her side of the story, because she wasn’t allowed that at her trial. Jen is also free to correct misconceptions that arose when Phillips supporters named her and Mark and leaked more items of clergy privilege on the internet.

    I don’t blame Jen for wanting to answer these things. She has the right to have her say. And she is allowing Lucy and you to have your say as well.

  64. Lynn Says:

    “And she is allowing Lucy and you to have your say as well.”

    Which is more than I can say for a lot of people, including Doug Phillips. K and Lucy seem bent on getting Jen to shut-up, whatever reasoning they use, but Jen isn’t making *them* shut-up, nor is she telling them they are in sin because they say she is sinning. No, she is answering them as quietly and as reasonably as I have seen anybody ever do.

  65. Lynn Says:

    “K, Jen has shared BCA documents which, as I understand it, break the laws of Texas.”

    Not *Jen’s* sharing the documents, but the fact that Doug breached counseling confidences in the documents. It is my understanding that this is in violation of Texas law.

  66. Morgan Farmer Says:

    K Says:
    Jen by the words above maybe you better examine what Morgan just wrote to Lucy. Who made YOU the beginning and the end of all knowledge in the universe regarding bring someone to repentance in such a public manner?
    MOrgan I suggest you hand Jen that stick and we all step back . . . everything said on this blog can be pointed right back to ourselves. ”
    Morgan says: Context…context..context.
    For you to use my phrase “beginning & end of all knowledge in the universe….and turn it onto Jen’s actions is completely wrong. Jen has taken it to the church…the court of public scrutiny is now the internet. Same intent…different format. My point is: We are not here to judge the WAY Jen has or has not asked that DP repent. Jen is not holding herself up as anything more than what she has stated…..an abused sheep. Her proof & arguments have been well prepared and presented.
    Jen has been kind enough to open this blog..her internet home if you will to comments. What if she had left the comments section ‘closed’. What if the only recourse any of us had to answer her was through nasty emails and blogs of our own?
    Thats the problem with a lot of the posting…its subjective instead of objective. K & Lucy…dears take note. This blog has never been about Doug Phillips PERSONALLY. It’s been about HIS ACTIONS.
    Big Difference.

  67. Cynthia Gee Says:

    Morgan says,
    “K & Lucy…dears take note. This blog has never been about Doug Phillips PERSONALLY. It’s been about HIS ACTIONS.”

    Of course, actions do speak volumes about who a person is, personally.

  68. Lynn Says:

    Cynthia:
    “Of course, actions do speak volumes about who a person is, personally.”

    True.

    On the one hand . . . a minister who refuses to listen to a husband’s plea to not disclose confidential information, and an excommunication and trial where the accused were not present . . .

    And somebody who writes about these incidents on her blog . . . after the first person made them public issues.

    Two different sets of actions.

  69. Morgan Farmer Says:

    Cynthia Gee says:
    “Of course, actions do speak volumes about who a person is, personally.”

    Morgan says: AGAIN….
    context context context….
    …but people do not always SEE the same things when they look at other people or their actions. There are those that view Mark & Jen ‘subjectively’ there are others view it OBJECTIVELY.
    Having been through a ‘horriffic church insanity’, I am constantly amazed at the tenor of the pursuit of justice that Mark & Jen have exhibited here. Most people would have been cowed into submission ( 🙂 ) long ago. Most people would have ranted and raved (me), gone off the deep end (me again)…and just been generally B****Y, (yep, me again too). So in realizing just HOW ROTTEN I would have been had I chosen a public forum I guess Jen & Mark just come across to me as decent people making a public point.

    So my point is, the Epsteins’ actions for me have been a blessing…as well as the other participants here have been a blessing. I have learned a lot about ‘what is really out there’, and let me tell you from my vantage point:

    Christianity is a pretty scary place right now.

  70. Jen Says:

    K: “Who made YOU the beginning and the end of all knowledge in the universe regarding bring someone to repentance in such a public manner?”

    Well, as Morgan so eloquently explained, I did not use those terms with anybody here, nor do I begin to think that of myself. However, would you rather have a warning straight from the horse’s mouth, or would just like to hear bits and pieces of this story floating around the homeschool community for years, with no one ever knowing the truth? Which do you think would be more advantageous? I choose the eye witness’ account.

  71. Cynthia Gee Says:

    “Having been through a ‘horrific church insanity’, I am constantly amazed at the tenor of the pursuit of justice that Mark & Jen have exhibited here.”

    I am amazed by how many people are trying to shame the Epsteins into keeping quiet. I’d be willing to bet that what happened to Mark and Jen at BCA is only one of the skeletons in the Visionforum/Phillips closet, the skeleton that got out and is now parading around, much to Doug’s chagrin.
    A lot of money flows through the homeschooling business — I only really realized how just much money, when I heard that VisionForum charges $1000 bucks a pop for dino-daytrips. VF wouldn’t ask those kind of prices if they didn’t have clients who are willing and able to pay that kind of money, without batting an eye, for a day’s educational amusement.
    There is big money changing hands here, folks, and big money creates the environment for big misdoings.

  72. Brenda Says:

    Cynthia, you are right that there is a lot of money that flows through the homeschool movement, however, the trips that you are discussing were not day trips. These were weeklong trips in which participants did receive some meals, seminars, etc. It is still more expensive than I could ever afford, and probably most people as well. I do think that there were some families that saved sacrificially from a modest income to attend some of these tours. To get a better perspective about what the typical cost of a trip would be, you would do better to compare this price to the cost of a five to seven day secular dig in which the participants received an above average “entertainment” value (i.e., not just labor intensive work, but also family activities). I think that general one day digs in this type of secular establishment used to run from $60 to $100 a day, but I am not positive.

  73. Brenda Says:

    The cost of the tours did not include lodging or all meal costs, but I think that it did cover entrance fees to the National Monument and the Museums…however, I am not completely certain about that.

  74. Cynthia Gee Says:

    Week long trips? Ok, that’s better, but $1000 a head is still a lot of money, especially with bed and board not included. Can you imagine a family of nine trying to afford something like this?

  75. Cynthia Gee Says:

    Brenda, I hope you don’t mind (and I’m a doofus, because I didn’t think to ask you) but I had also made statements about $1000 a day dino-digs on Ministry Watchman, so I quoted the info from your comment, above, over there. Sorry for not asking first, I wasn’t thinking, and thanks for setting the record straight on the pricing.


What do you think?

Fill in your details below or click an icon to log in:

WordPress.com Logo

You are commenting using your WordPress.com account. Log Out /  Change )

Google photo

You are commenting using your Google account. Log Out /  Change )

Twitter picture

You are commenting using your Twitter account. Log Out /  Change )

Facebook photo

You are commenting using your Facebook account. Log Out /  Change )

Connecting to %s

%d bloggers like this: