Hi Jen,
I thought I would forward the email response I received after requesting removal from [Vision Forum’s] mailing list. Please know you guys are in my prayers. After several hours reading your site, SFU and Matt C’s Mrs. Binoculars it became rather obvious what is going on as I have experienced this kind of thing before. While in a Christian high school in Alexandria, Va. the same type of individuals directed some of the same kind of accusations and judgment toward me. Unfortunately the classmate of mine that I was falsely accused of immorality with went home for Christmas vacation and committed Suicide. This occurred in 1985 and has affected my life greatly. In reading some [of] your daughter’s comments (that were posted by the ex-interns on SFU) I’m reminded of long term hurt and bitterness, and to be totally honest hatred that came into my heart because of these people. I guess I’m real slow to forget, as I think of my friend everyday and it has tarnished my Christmas for years. I pray your daughter is able to see these people for who they are and finds peace in a real church, that cares about people. I pray daily for your family and know God will give you eventual Justice. I know this all has to wear on you guys and pray the Lord strengthens your resolve daily.
I really think Doug and friends are beginning to really feel the “heat”, as some of their posts on SFU are getting down right bizarre. Believe it or not your situation is being discussed among the home school crowd quite a bit up here in Northern Va. I really appreciate your speaking out on the importance of a quality education, regardless of a child’s sex. No parent has the right to under educate their daughters for an idealogical view. That is really sick. I took a look at Jennie C. mother & stepfather’s courtship service website. I think I would rather stand on the street with a sign (wife wanted) before going that route.Some of these people are scary weird. That questionnaire was something else.
Bless you,
RR
———- Forwarded Message ———-
Dear Mr. R:
Thank you for your note. Respectfully, you are sadly and significantly mistaken as to the facts below. Vision Forum does have a statement concerning the internet attacks which you are welcome to read here http://www.visionforum.com/about/issues/ep/
While we are saddened that you have believed the false claims of such individuals, we respect your decision and will remove you from our list as you have requested.
We wish you and your family all the best.
Sincerely,
Bob Renaud
Personal Assistant to Doug Phillips
Vision Forum Inc, and Vision Forum Ministries
210-340-5250 ex. 201
—–Original Message—–
From: rr@netzero.com
Posted At: Monday, May 21, 2007 4:22 PM
Posted To: President
Conversation: remove from mailing list
Subject: remove from mailing list
Mr. Phillips, recently Vision forum and yourself came up at a lunch time conversation and I was sternly warned to avoid dealing with your company.Normally I’m rather dismissive of these “suggestions” but since it was coming from someone of very reliable reputation, I agreed to check out a site (Jen’s Gems) as well as your local church site. Although it seemed a bit over the top, I was even more shocked by Matt’s site Mrs. Binoculars and another still fed up. Having friends and a few ex-interns run interference of this sort makes you look rather scummy to be quite frank. Still I was just kind of thinking things over when the Arlington book fair rolled around. That pretty much convinced me that you personally are out of control and that the elders of your church have really botched a local church issue, turning it into something now being discussed in Northern Va. I hope you reevaluate and are able to end this mess soon.
Please remove me from your mailing list.
Additionally please cease from selling my info. to other marketers.
Thank You
RR
Jen's Gems -- Doug Phillips' Ecclesiastical Tyranny and Abuse 
June 11, 2007 at 11:17 am
Hank Haanegraff doesn’t believe in the psychological manipulation in terms that are as strong as I do. I cited them in the reference list of the New Cults paper along with an article from Paul Martin (psycholgist with a clinic for ex cult members.
Hank should find out about it when the MCOI article pops up!
June 11, 2007 at 11:26 am
Blah,
I cited the Passantino’s in the article, Hank Haanegraff’s favorite cult people… Paul Martin wrote an article to counter one that BAM put out a few years ago.
Sorry, the names didn’t get all the way out of my brain, down into my fingers and onto the keyboard.
June 11, 2007 at 11:28 am
“Doug is a very strong proponent of taking the second commandment literally…… but now he has this carved image of a frog in his dining room. I wonder how he justifies it.”
Do you mean that Doug believes that all images are sinful, or that only statues are a sin, or that only carved (graven) statues violate God’s word?
Maybe DP justifies Jeeves on the basis that the frog is pottery, and is therefore molded, not carved.
Regardless of how he justifies the frog, though, such an extreme view of graven images is Snickers bar logic: any way you slice it, it’s nutty.
June 11, 2007 at 11:43 am
I have been wandering around the internet, and had not realized that VF claims Faith Presbyterian Church made these claims:
FPC:
“[O]ur Session agreed that taking a private matter of church discipline to the court of public opinion via the Internet is at least as great an offense as taking a brother to court before a watching local heathen community.”
To which Spunky replied:
“A private excommunication is an oxymoron. Excommunication is a PUBLIC act of discipline NOT a private church discipline issue as Faith PCA alleges in their letter. Private discipline actions include such things as a personal rebuke or the refusal of the Lord’s Table. But excommunication is by its very definition a PUBLIC declaration to the church following the directives of Mathew 18 not to have anything to do with the excommunicant. The intention of such a public act is in the hope that they will be shamed into repentance.
II Thessalonians 3:14 says: And if any man obey not our word by this epistle, note that man, and have no company with him, that he may be ashamed.
The Epsteins may be guilty of a list of offenses bigger than my pile of laundry, but going public isn’t one of them. So it is erroneous for anyone to claim or fault the Epsteins for making this a public issue. They didn’t.”
I don’t know if this has been quoted over here, but it bears repeating. Doug Phillips was the one who made this a public issue first, NOT the Epsteins. And FPC is wrong in what they said. Which makes me wonder how competent they are to teach Bible doctrine, if they claim something like an excommunication is a “private matter.”
Kudos to Spunky for pointing out their nonsense.
June 11, 2007 at 11:43 am
Come on, folks. Sometimes a frog is just a frog. It’s a Jeeves character, not a black serving boy. It wouldn’t matter if Doug had a hundred obvious racist items around the house — THIS one is not.
We are making ourselves out to be just as extreme as we are claiming Doug to be — by picking OUT every little detail of just about every little thing to pick AT. We need to focus on the actual issues that matter, not frog statues or fedoras or Doug’s height on any of that other nonsense. It makes us look both petty and pretty stupid to carry on over all this peripheral stuff so much. I have a hard time distinguishing this from K’s comments about posting in the middle of the night and other nonsense.
One of the commenters at that site went on and on about all the “symbolism” Doug was trying to portray. It was even more stupid that SFU gets — and I didn’t know that was possible. She said something like, “It’s small, like a boy — to represent calling grown black men ‘boys.’ It’s in the corner, to symbolize something about punishment or lack of equality.” REALLY stupid comments.
It’s just a frog, fer cryin’ out loud!
And there is no connection between a small statue — or a large one — and the commandment against graven images, unless there is evidence that people are WORSHIPPING that statue. That commandment had to do with worshipping idols. I may be going out on a limb, here, but I doubt that Doug bows down before that frog statue every morning with an offering and a prayer. I do not consider the Jefferson Memorial or the Statue of Liberty to be idols, either. I’m weird like that.
June 11, 2007 at 12:22 pm
Mike, I realize that the second commandment has to do with worshiping idols, but that is not what Doug teaches. Any picture of any created thing was forbidden, including nature scenes in his home. For some reason, this did not include pictures of people. In his living room is a picture of the founding fathers signing the Declaration of Independence. It is about 10 feet tall and quite stunning. I was also quite stunned when I first saw it, because I knew his stance on the second commandment. I was even more stunned when he put up a picture in his dining room of the Christians being fed to the lions.
It’s about hypocrisy, Mike.
June 11, 2007 at 12:27 pm
Like I said, Snickers bar thinking.
June 11, 2007 at 12:34 pm
“It’s about hypocrisy, Mike.”
Possibly, but not necessarily. It could be just an indication of inconsistency with his own teachings.
As a point of logic — Jen did not do this, but just in case anyone is tempted: It’s a logical fallacy to point to his failure to live up to his own teaching as evidence of the falsity of the teaching. IOW, if he does claim that any “image” for any purpose is a violation of that commandment — and then if he does violate that teaching by having an “image” — that does nothing to disprove his claim. All it does is show that he is inconsistent with his claim.
June 11, 2007 at 12:35 pm
Mike, Mike, Mike…I think it is an issue of matter to discuss Doug’s height AND the height of his fedora!
And can you be absolutely certain that there is no frog worship in their household? Can you? Huh? Huh?
OK, I’m just kidding…
June 11, 2007 at 12:37 pm
“I was even more stunned when he put up a picture in his dining room of the Christians being fed to the lions.”
Maybe that symbolizes that the lions are not “still fed up.”
BWAAAAA-HAAAAAA-HAAAAAA!!
June 11, 2007 at 12:39 pm
“And can you be absolutely certain that there is no frog worship in their household? Can you? Huh? Huh?”
Don’t mind Rebecca. She likes to ribbit me.
June 11, 2007 at 3:06 pm
Mike, Doug’s not following his own teachings may not necessarily prove that his teachings are false. But it DOES make him look a lot like the Pharisees, whom Jesus rebuked for putting heavy burdens on people, burdens that they themselves did not bother with.
(Not saying that I care whether or not the Phillips family has a frog statue in their dining room, mind you! You’re right, picking just for the sake of picking makes people look silly…when there’s SO MUCH in this situation that actually reeks of wrongdoing…)
June 11, 2007 at 3:14 pm
I really thought that Phillips was just a local wacko. But apparently not:
“About 3,700 paying guests have registered to attend a weeklong celebration that’s kicking off Monday and is billed as an alternative to the official Jamestown 2007 festivities.”
I am flabbergasted that *thousands* of folks (obviously not just from San Antonio) would flock to some hokey river reinactment be indoctrinated by him. And PAY for it, to boot! I’m not sure just what you get for your money, but if the Botkin video clip, and the dominion rhetoric, and the providential this-that-and-the-other-thing that so freely flows from Phillips is any indication, I’d need more than dramamine to survive this river expedition.
And, thanks for the heads-up on the Botkin release (I’m not sure who posted that). I was shocked to see some folks from my neck of the woods apparently wrapped up in that debacle. These crackpots are springing up everywhere! Like the nutgrass in my yard. Unfortunately, there’s no RoundUp for ecclesiastical weeds.
I have greatly underestimated the reach of this guy’s teaching.
Have a pleasant day,
Jean
June 11, 2007 at 3:29 pm
Jean said,
“About 3,700 paying guests have registered to attend a weeklong celebration that’s kicking off Monday and is billed as an alternative to the official Jamestown 2007 festivities.”
We are at least 12 hours from there and nowhere near Texas. Our friends left Sat. a.m. to participate. They attended the Father/Daughter retreat at over $600.00. DP’s influence is very far reaching.
June 11, 2007 at 4:48 pm
Concerned,
That just blows my mind! I can school both my children for less than $600 a year! No way would I pay that for some creepy father/daughter retreat or some dominionist-biased field trip. Fools and their money truly are soon parted I guess.
DP has found a slick way to access the deep pockets of a segment of sheepish homeschoolers. What a gravy train. What a brilliant con. Someone please tell me how this is any different than being fleeced by a crooked televalgelist.
Have a pleasant day,
Jean
June 11, 2007 at 5:10 pm
“Someone please tell me how this is any different than being fleeced by a crooked televalgelist.”
The televangelist is in it for money. The dominionists are in it for money and power — they want to make their screwball heresy the law of the land, and force it down everyone’s throats.
June 12, 2007 at 1:05 am
” I really thought Phillips was just a local wacko but apparently not, 3700 people have registered ….
That’s nothing ! Just wait till I finish building my papermache tyrannosaurus Rex out of old Vision Forum catalogs, bury it and video my two year old niece digging it up. You don’t know what a crowd is, I’ll have a line around the block after I mail the Vision Forum list. I have already started writing the promo:
The tyrannosaurus REX was the real king of the beast not wimpy, lazy lions. The Rex was widely know for its strict supervision of the family and proud standing among animals with Patriarchal tendencies. Although their roar was loud they actually were tempered by the smaller and more intelligent JENosaurus.
You reckon I could have the Botkin sisters record my promo, they are very well spoken for folks living in OZ under the teachings of the wizard himself. (remember the little wizard, hiding behind tricks and gadgetry to make himself taller & louder ? ) He was also exposed, by a woman named Dorthy. I’m not saying that necessarily correlates as much as the JIM JONES thing but still I think we should all watch the Wizard of OZ and notice the metaphors.
June 12, 2007 at 12:19 pm
Scott wrote: You reckon I could have the Botkin sisters record my promo, they are very well spoken for folks living in OZ under the teachings of the wizard himself. (remember the little wizard, hiding behind tricks and gadgetry to make himself taller & louder ? )
That’s why the Veinot Gothard expose’ uses “the man behind the curtain” as a motif for Gothard. It should give one more cause to consider the Napoleonic complex problem as a factor in all of this. Hhmmm
June 12, 2007 at 12:28 pm
Scott: “The tyrannosaurus REX was the real king of the beast not wimpy, lazy lions. The Rex was widely know for its strict supervision of the family and proud standing among animals with Patriarchal tendencies. Although their roar was loud they actually were tempered by the smaller and more intelligent JENosaurus.”
That’s quite a compliment, Scott! Now I am a small dinosaur. Hmm. I’ll have to think about that one! You are very creative, Scott. But you’re right, Doug never reckoned for someone like me! I’m not exactly a man-eating dinosaur, but I’m not content to just munch on a few herbs either!
June 12, 2007 at 2:08 pm
Jen wrote:
“I’m not exactly a man-eating dinosaur, but I’m not content to just munch on a few herbs either!”
I suspect that DP and his supporters would take exception to that statement! Not only are you content to munch on a few Herbs, But Dougs, Bobs, and Matts as well! You carnivore, you! 🙂
June 12, 2007 at 2:10 pm
Can’t wait for the sequel: “Raising the JENosarus: The true story of how a homeschooling patriarch attempted to bury a family through ecclesiastical tyranny, but is blunted in his attempts through the power of the Internet”
June 12, 2007 at 2:42 pm
It’s true, the Epstein’s don’t eat a whole lot of meat. I do recall Jennifer adding more fish to her families diet though so maybe she is more of a water-based dinosaur, something like a plesioaur.
June 12, 2007 at 6:24 pm
Brandon,
I don’t know. I think she likes rootbeer floats. 🙂 What kind of dinosaur likes rootbeer floats? Or is that because of evolution?
June 12, 2007 at 8:02 pm
Corrie, only the type that tries to keep her dinosaur friends out of bars!
June 12, 2007 at 10:27 pm
Bryan, I like the way you put that.
Actually there is more truth to it than humor. The DOUG really did underestimate the power of the internet and of TRUTH SHATTERING LIES.
Deceitful, power hungry, egomaniacs tend to begin to believe their own lies. Then when they are confronted with their inconsistent statements they go into attack mode. In the Doug’s case, SFU & Fat Matt’s site Mrs. Binoculars are a perfect example. The Doug is rapidly becoming famous for his temper tantrums when someone disagrees with him. I have seen this before with manipulative bullies and liars. One day he will bully the wrong guy and his Munckan handlers Peter Braddrick and Bob Renaud won’t be around to protect him from facing the moment of truth. Not everyone in this world is pushed around as easily as Jen’s young son was. There are plenty of Jenosaurus types still roaming the earth that would have ripped a guys head off for pushing their child. Some Phillips type idiot pulls that with my niece or nephew ,and they will wish they were in the Land of The LOST being chased by a couple of dinosaurs.
Does the Doug really think everyone in this world is intimidated by ” who is your ecclesiastical authority, what are your elders names ” ? Threats of criminal prosecution for non-existent or misquoted sections of the criminal code. The fact that he is an attorney (that apparently has never litigated a single case) and can threaten groundless lawsuits that could result in him being sanctioned by the court system or even disbarred. (Don’t think it can happen Dougy, read up on the Duke Lacrosse case in Raleigh.) Members of the BAR are expected to conduct themselves with integrity, not act like they just came out of a different kind of bar during happy hour ( leave that to R.C Spourl JR , he is an expert).
Someone should inform the entire staff of Oakbrook law school about the conduct of a certain student Mr. BOB Renaud and the site SFU. Their names are on their school site. Bill Gothard will probably be disappointed to see a student of his “prestigious school” conducting himself this way. Future attorneys aren’t supposed to act like that Mr. Renaud, so you better shape up. Looks like you have been exposed to the bad habits of a mentor that couldn’t hack it in the legal world. Stay in Oakbrook and you will end up like all the other ” attorneys” that studied there and can’t get hired within the legal community. Just check out the Alumni section and read about all five graduates. Sad and pathetic !
June 12, 2007 at 10:41 pm
Jen,
Ha! SHHHH!!! You promised you wouldn’t tell!!
June 13, 2007 at 10:33 am
Now, finally, Ken Ham’s strongarming of a ministry away from its appointed management and cheating thousands of subscribers out of a magazine they had paid for will be of interest to this blog:
[url=http://www.answersingenesis.org/articles/2007/06/12/american-patriotic-award-goes-to-aussie]Doug Philips Honors Ken Ham[\url]
June 13, 2007 at 10:42 am
RefCal,
So glad that you bring this up! I was one of those subscribers that really liked the Creation Ex Nihilo magazine. I was switched to the Answers magazine and it was a sorry replacement in my opinion. More of a catalog for AiG really. I cancelled my subscription and asked to be removed from the AiG list. Now there is a tie between Ham and Phillips. Just confirms my disgust with both of them. It is disappointing that such nonsense will likely detract from the Creation Museum. Or is that just more smoke and mirrors, too? What’s with these guys? They need to be taken to the wood shed.
Have a pleasant day,
Jean
June 13, 2007 at 11:19 am
From what I’ve read about the Creation Museum (and it’s been covered pretty extensively in the media), it’s top-notch. The gospel presentation is an integral part of the program. I’d love to visit it but as long as Ken Ham is involved and unrepentant, I’ll stay far away.
Unfortunately for Ken Ham’s chances of repentence, the Museum is now a cash cow that can support AIG’s inflated salaries even if former supporters desert in droves.
June 13, 2007 at 11:58 am
Where is some documentation of what Ken Ham did (allegedly, of course)? This is the first I’ve heard of this, and I would like to educate myself.
Also RefCal, it appears there is nothing at the AiG link you posted above.
June 13, 2007 at 12:11 pm
Never mind. Found a link here .
June 13, 2007 at 12:50 pm
Bryan,
Click on my name and go to the bottom of the page for links to the AIG debacle. Most of the discussion of this is going on at infidel blogs, several of which have linked to my blog, and it’s driving traffic up so high I can’t get on my own blog (or maybe there’s some other reason)!
Trying again on the link:
http://www.answersingenesis.org/articles/2007/06/12/american-patriotic-award-goes-to-aussie
BTW, AIG is a very fine organization on the whole. As far as I can tell it’s only rotten at the very top. Sad to say this seems to be a pattern now going back 20 years when the editor of CREATION EX NIHILO initiated a massive (literal) witch-hunt which resulted in such turmoil that he was excommunicated from his own Baptist church (something that hardly ever happens). Only in the past year, he has somehow come back into the good graces of Ken Ham (who had asked him to leave back in ’87), without ever publically repenting.
Next, we’ll see him sharing the stage with The Doug?
June 15, 2007 at 3:12 pm
Cindy K,
I’m thinking it was you–at any rate, if the shoe fits, wear it–who wrote on another thread about a working father of eleven children whose family “had to go on welfare.”
Such a statement really gets my dander up, because even though both of my grandmothers received welfare–either payments through Aid to Families with Dependent Children or socialistically obtained dairy products from the Department of Agriculture–it wasn’t because my grandfathers weren’t physically able to provide for their families (which were large by today’s standards). The reason why their families were in such need was that one was a lunatic and the other an alcoholic.
But somehow both of my parents grew up thinking that it was the father’s responsibility to provide for his family, not the state’s. Perhaps it had something to do with the social stigma that was attached to being on welfare back in the 1930’s and 40’s.
But by the time I was going to school in the 1970’s and 80’s there was no stigma at all attached to getting either a free education or a free lunch at the local public school. I thought that I was making off pretty well on the backs of such suckers who would give me for free what my sane, teetotalling father was perfectly capable of paying for himself.
And when I was having children in the 1990’s there was no stigma attached to getting food through the WIC program (although qualifying for it was something akin to the first day in boot camp, just without the yelling). The lady who ran us through the hoops even expressed her wish that it would be open to everyone, just like public education. Our income was about a third of what we could make and still qualify.
It was the months we spent on that program that opened my eyes to the foolishness of depending on the government for our daily bread. As we got more and more into a health-food diet, there were fewer and fewer things we could eat that qualified for WIC coupons. Eventually we saw ourselves not using up all our coupons in a month, meanwhile spending two or three times the normal amount for food that wasn’t processed commercially. We started to realize that we were victims of the system, not its beneficiaries. The lady who had earlier welcomed us into her clutches was a bit put out over our reasons for departing, but she had to let us go.
We’ve been free ever since, even though most of those years our annual family income has been less than $2500 per capita. We don’t HAVE to go on welfare, any more than I HAVE to spend my entire paycheck at the local liquor hall, like my one grandfather did, or attempt to cut my own head off with a hand saw, like my other grandfather did.
Suck up to the system if you like, but don’t try to tell me that I HAVE to join you–and we can get along just fine.
End of sermon. Try not go get me going again, and we can agree that socialistic systems are doomed to failure–even if we define that term a little differently.
August 24, 2007 at 11:04 am
Doug Phillips is a disgrace to homeschoolers. I have a good friend of mine who homeschools her two children, and she would never agree with the insane beliefs this man advocates, especially about women. I am presently a stay-at-home mom, but my husband and I choose not to homeschool our son when it’s time for him to start his schooling. Most Christian homeschool advocates are nothing like these people, especially the ones I know. They are kind, loving people who are simply doing what they feel is best for the moral, academic, and spiritual development of their children. They would never treat my husband and I like we had the leprosy because we choose to do otherwise.
I truly think that Doug Phillips and Vision Forum should be banned from every Christian homeschooling convention that exists. They make others think that everyone who goes to the conventions share the lunatic views of this man. What about the homeschoolers who have no problem with their children dating, as long as it’s done in a Christian manner? What about homeschoolers whose women wear jeans instead of dresses? What about homeschoolers who are doing so in order to save up the money for their children to go to college (gasp!)? My point is that homeschoolers are very diverse and don’t deserve to be painted with the same tainted VF brush.