Virginia Homeschoolers Discuss Doug Phillips

Hi Jen,

I thought I would forward the email response I received after requesting removal from [Vision Forum’s] mailing list. Please know you guys are in my prayers. After several hours reading your site, SFU and Matt C’s Mrs. Binoculars it became rather obvious what is going on as I have experienced this kind of thing before. While in a Christian high school in Alexandria, Va. the same type of individuals directed some of the same kind of accusations and judgment toward me. Unfortunately the classmate of mine that I was falsely accused of immorality with went home for Christmas vacation and committed Suicide. This occurred in 1985 and has affected my life greatly. In reading some [of] your daughter’s comments (that were posted by the ex-interns on SFU) I’m reminded of long term hurt and bitterness, and to be totally honest hatred that came into my heart because of these people. I guess I’m real slow to forget, as I think of my friend everyday and it has tarnished my Christmas for years. I pray your daughter is able to see these people for who they are and finds peace in a real church, that cares about people. I pray daily for your family and know God will give you eventual Justice. I know this all has to wear on you guys and pray the Lord strengthens your resolve daily.

I really think Doug and friends are beginning to really feel the “heat”, as some of their posts on SFU are getting down right bizarre. Believe it or not your situation is being discussed among the home school crowd quite a bit up here in Northern Va. I really appreciate your speaking out on the importance of a quality education, regardless of a child’s sex. No parent has the right to under educate their daughters for an idealogical view. That is really sick. I took a look at Jennie C. mother & stepfather’s courtship service website. I think I would rather stand on the street with a sign (wife wanted) before going that route.Some of these people are scary weird. That questionnaire was something else.

Bless you,

RR

———- Forwarded Message ———-
Dear Mr. R:

Thank you for your note. Respectfully, you are sadly and significantly mistaken as to the facts below. Vision Forum does have a statement concerning the internet attacks which you are welcome to read here http://www.visionforum.com/about/issues/ep/

While we are saddened that you have believed the false claims of such individuals, we respect your decision and will remove you from our list as you have requested.

We wish you and your family all the best.

Sincerely,

Bob Renaud
Personal Assistant to Doug Phillips
Vision Forum Inc, and Vision Forum Ministries
210-340-5250 ex. 201

—–Original Message—–
From: rr@netzero.com
Posted At: Monday, May 21, 2007 4:22 PM
Posted To: President
Conversation: remove from mailing list
Subject: remove from mailing list

Mr. Phillips, recently Vision forum and yourself came up at a lunch time conversation and I was sternly warned to avoid dealing with your company.Normally I’m rather dismissive of these “suggestions” but since it was coming from someone of very reliable reputation, I agreed to check out a site (Jen’s Gems) as well as your local church site. Although it seemed a bit over the top, I was even more shocked by Matt’s site Mrs. Binoculars and another still fed up. Having friends and a few ex-interns run interference of this sort makes you look rather scummy to be quite frank. Still I was just kind of thinking things over when the Arlington book fair rolled around. That pretty much convinced me that you personally are out of control and that the elders of your church have really botched a local church issue, turning it into something now being discussed in Northern Va. I hope you reevaluate and are able to end this mess soon.

Please remove me from your mailing list.

Additionally please cease from selling my info. to other marketers.

Thank You

RR

109 Responses to “Virginia Homeschoolers Discuss Doug Phillips”

  1. Mark Epstein Says:

    RR said: “Additionally please cease from selling my info. to other marketers.”

    It is important to understand what RR is saying in this sentence and his overall email to Vision Forum. He is NOT; embarking on the path of tortious business interference. He is making it clear that his decision is a MORAL decision.

    It encourages me greatly that a homeschooler from Virginia can see through the slick facade of the Phillips-orchestrated conspiracy to smear a wrongly excommunicated couple. Although I am sure Phillips and his cohorts think they are justified in the tone they use, their tone is an aberration to believers and non-believers alike. The rants and railings at SFU are but one instance of the hate emanating from the Phillips camp. Tack on the ad hom; and wild theories at Chancey’s site and the undocumented accusations at the BCA site, and it is plainly obvious there is no love from this wolf in sheep’s clothing or any of those aligned with Phillips.

    The “bottom line” is this: Phillips and his proxies have made it abundantly clear to an objective world that the word “tyranny” is an apropos description of Phillips’ and his shills’ behavior.

  2. Bryan Says:

    Good job RR!

  3. Morgan Farmer Says:

    RR said: “Additionally please cease from selling my info. to other marketers.”

    Morgan: I tried to post an earlier comment to this thread early this AM while my wireless or whatever decided to take a breather…so I don;t know if I got ‘posted’ or ‘removed’. 🙂

    OK now remember that I am not real swift here and give me a lttle leeway…I am just trying to work through this here and I could be out in left field. If I am I am sure ya’ll will let me know.

    …the comment I quoted above just really touched a nerve…the idea that personal information is being collected by an organization and then ‘sold’ for (I guess) money or other bartered internet/marketing services is nothing new. When my business got added to Dun & Bradstreet the very nexy day I started receiving calls from telemarketers. BY noon I had logged 40 calls to my office while I was trying to work. I had to contact D&B and tell them to take my name off the list…it took three days and I received over 300 emails and 150 calls.

    Mark says to clarify: He is NOT; embarking on the path of tortious business interference…

    I did not take RR’s comment to be tortious business interference…it was clearly not meant as such…I guess I am just curious as to how many solicitations RR had received and how he knew they were a result of VF’s marketing strategy…and if such marketers (or collectors of such information) have interpreted a request to remove their names from marketing lists as ‘business interference’ and what if any legal ramifications there have been or have been threatened? What if any privacy issues are there?

    Mark…help (?),
    Best, Morgan

  4. Jen Says:

    Morgan, I don’t think RR was stating that Vision Forum did indeed sell their email lists, but rather that he wanted to make sure that that did not happen, JUST IN CASE. I have no idea if Vision Forum sells their email lists or not.

  5. T. Reformed Says:

    RR wrote, “Unfortunately the classmate of mine that I was falsely accused of immorality with went home for Christmas vacation and committed Suicide.”

    What a sad and tragic story. RR, may the Lord Jesus bring you healing and peace.

    Anybody care to take a guess where the highest teen suicide rate in the nation is? Utah. Anybody who’s spent any time around Mormon families can appreciate why Mormon teenagers would be so prone to suicide. Cultures that manipulate and control through guilt, blame and shame cause incredible human destruction. Teenagers, lacking the maturity to know how to deal with it, sometimes resort to suicide.

    Mormon families are Patriarchal, legalistic, perfectionistic, and authoritarian. That’s what their “churches” model and teach. The typical Mormon family is all about image, and they don’t understand the first thing about grace. If you fall short or disappoint your church or your family, shunning is often the first thing they resort to.

    But it’s not just Mormons who engage in this graceless behavior. Other “religious” and cultic groups sometimes do the same thing, often with disastrous consequences. I’m seeing a lot of similarities between Doug Phillips/Vision Forum/Boerne Christian Assembly and Mormonism. Something must be done to stop it. If Doug Phillips isn’t stopped, at some point some teenager is going to do something horrible.

    Mark 9:42, “And whosoever shall offend one of these little ones that believe in me, it is better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and he were cast into the sea.”

  6. Jen Says:

    T. Reformed, I didn’t know that about the high teenage suicide rate among Mormons. That is sad indeed. I am so grateful that has not happened at BCA, but there are several young men and women who have greatly rebelled against all they were taught growing up. And that is sad as well. Unfortunately, it is not uncommon in Patriarchy circles either.

  7. Morgan Farmer Says:

    Thanks Jen for clarifying….brain in a tizzy.
    Best, M

  8. Joe Geek Says:

    Just want to encourage you Jen as you write this blog, and are attacked by several people. Just remember the trials Job had to go through and how his friends turned on him in the time that he really needed friends.

  9. Morgan Farmer Says:

    I would like to publicly tell RR that my heart just breaks for you regarding your dear friend who committed suicide. My thoughts have been with you all day dear unknown person and I just don’t have any words to describe what I would like to say.

    ((((((((((((((((((((RR))))))))))))))))))))

    Best, Morgan

  10. Bryan Says:

    Finally, I went to SFU.

    I cannot BELIEVE that these people actually claim to know and love God! The vitriol is amazing, unlike here, where facts are simply presented for the discerning mind to evaluate.

    They are the “noisy gongs” and “clanging cymbals” of 1 Cor. 13. THEY HAVE NO LOVE FOR GOD’S FLOCK.

    To poke fun at brethren who have described their ordeal as akin to being spritually raped is beyond words. They have no shame.

    While I wil not call them “false sheep” as I cannot judge them (only God alone can), I wonder if they would actually feel more at home with Fred Phelps and the Westboro Baptist Church.

    The fact that Doug Phillips ALLOWS that type of vitriol to go uncommented on at Vision Forum speaks volumes as to his (lack of) character.

    They bring shame to the body of Christ. Still Fed Up: shame on you.

  11. Mark Epstein Says:

    Bryan said: “The fact that Doug Phillips ALLOWS that type of vitriol to go uncommented on at Vision Forum speaks volumes as to his (lack of) character. They bring shame to the body of Christ. ”

    Yes, Bryan, Phillips and his shills do bring shame to the body of Christ. They sully the “bride’s” reputation with their hate-filled vitriol and they obviously lack love and character.

    As my new WordPress image (a Griffin) suggests, we must all be about the business of protecting the divine – in the case at hand, Christ’s bride.

  12. Corrie Says:

    “Sincerely,

    Bob Renaud
    Personal Assistant to Doug Phillips
    Vision Forum Inc, and Vision Forum Ministries
    210-340-5250 ex. 201”

    By day, Bob Renaud, by night “Fallacy Slayer”? 🙂

    I think once someone knows for sure who the guys behind SFU are, the more we will see how this whole ministry operates.

  13. Lin Says:

    “Sincerely,

    Bob Renaud
    Personal Assistant to Doug Phillips
    Vision Forum Inc, and Vision Forum Ministries
    210-340-5250 ex. 201″

    How old of a guy is Bob?

    Bryan, Fed Up is pretty shocking isn’t it? So is Mrs. Bino. That people would take it seriously amazes me and makes me think the Patriarchy movement really is somewhat of a cult in the type of thinking. Educated and spiritual people can see through the vitriol and know it is very far away from Christ. Still, as even the letter from Bob shows, DP’s name is never associated with anything.

    Just to let you know…My sister in law is a partner with a very large international firm. That is her mantra: Never put your name on anything controversial or confronting…do it through others for protection and plausible deniability. …I pray for her every day.

  14. Mark Epstein Says:

    Lin said: “Educated and spiritual people can see through the vitriol and know it is very far away from Christ.”

    Oh, Lin, if it were only true! Unfortunately, this is not the case at BCA. 😦

    People you would think know better and who you expect to view things objectively do not do so. It’s actually quite sad – in so many ways.

    As for Renaud, he is in his mid-twenties, perhaps as old as 26 or 27. Doug turned 42 a few days ago (May 31). I turned 53 in April, and Howard Phillips is 66.

  15. Cynthia Gee Says:

    Does Doug Phillips have any men his own age or older working for him, or are his executive employees all a bunch of twentysomething kids?

  16. Jen Says:

    I believe there are 3-4 men at Vision Forum Doug’s age or older. The rest are all 20-something boys.

  17. Natasha Says:

    Lin,
    Bob The Snob is 27.

  18. Lin Says:

    One has to wonder if Bob’s life ambition was to be Doug’s personal secretary.

  19. Jen Says:

    Lin, you have no idea how prestigious a position that is! Bob is with Doug practically 24/7. He even lives with him. In fact, Bob is Doug’s public face. When Doug doesn’t want to deal with difficult people in public, Bob steps in. When Doug doesn’t want to deal with difficult questions via other communiques, Bob steps in. In fact, you pretty much can’t get to Doug except through Bob. Someone tell me I’m wrong.

  20. Cindy Kunsman Says:

    God bless RR abundantly beyond all our wildest imaginations for speaking out against what he believes in his heart to be right against high-profile criticism. God bless and minister to all who have turned their backs on the Epstiens over the same matters.

    Someone enlighten me, please.

    What is SFU?

  21. Jen Says:

    SFU. Still Fed Up. A blog by that name. You can Google it, but you won’t be happy!

  22. Cindy Kunsman Says:

    Shucks! They used my favorite Edumund Burke quote. Sir Burke would be rolling over in his grave as the VF crowd could easily compare with the abuses against which the French Revolution were raised. I only looked at the opening page. I may go back and read it, but what’s the point?

  23. Jen Says:

    What’s the point? To see what fine young men Doug Phillips trains and has working for him. You will be SO impressed!

  24. Morgan Farmer Says:

    SFU. Still Fed Up. A blog by that name. You can Google it, but you won’t be happy!

    Oh my goodness……….I read a few posts…..heading towards the loo to discuss things with the porcelain pope. (barf)
    what meaness…….no logic oh and still no lists of sins…..

  25. Cindy Kunsman Says:

    Okay, Folks.

    Here’s my freebie website where I’ve posted the New Cults of Biblical Christianity article from 2004.
    I HAVENT FINISHED THE REFERENCE LIST ON THE NEW CULTS ARTICLE yet. Check back in a day or two to see the final draft. Let me know if there are typos, I had to retype it from the original which is why it isnt done. Anyone who would like a hard copy can request one at the site:
    http://www.ourchurch.com/member/u/UnderMuchGrace/

    Andrew’s article on Hegemonic Patriarchy is shorter and complete. (also written 2004 when Doug put out his stuff about women not permitted to work outside the home and no schooling outside the home)

  26. Lin Says:

    “Lin, you have no idea how prestigious a position that is! ”

    Uh…ok…if you say so….???

  27. Jen Says:

    “Lin, you have no idea how prestigious a position that is! ”

    Lin, that was meant to be only partially sarcastic. In Doug’s world, Bob has made it. He not only gets to be WITH Doug 24/7, but he has almost full control on who has access TO Doug. He speaks FOR Doug. Whatever Doug wants, Bob does. In other words, when you idolize someone like that, Bob HAS reached his goal in life.

  28. thatmom Says:

    Does anyone know if Bob Renaud is a current student with Oak Brook College of Law and Government Policy? I know he had planned on that a few years ago and wonder if that is currently the case.

  29. Cynthia Gee Says:

    Jen said, “I believe there are 3-4 men at Vision Forum Doug’s age or older. The rest are all 20-something boys.”

    That in itself speaks volumes. A man who surrounds himself with adulating young “yes-men” instead of men his own age is a often man who fears the counsel of his peers, let alone that of his elders. It appears that Doug is all for patriarchy, as long as HE is the patriarch calling the shots — and IMO, 42 years old is a bit young to be calling oneself a patriarch.

    1Ki 12:8 But he forsook the counsel of the old men, which they had given him, and consulted with the young men that were grown up with him, [and] which stood before him…..

  30. Lin Says:

    “Bob HAS reached his goal in life.”

    Maybe he will grow up.

  31. Pape Blastus XVII Says:

    Morgan,

    “porcelain pope…”?

    Had you changed one little letter, you would be cruising for anathema, child. Take care with your too-clever turns of phrase!

    I have spoken.

  32. Mike Says:

    “Oh my goodness……….I read a few posts…..heading towards the loo to discuss things with the porcelain pope. (barf) what meanness…….no logic oh and still no lists of sins…..”

    Yes, there is a list of sins — one. They call Jen a liar for claiming that Doug called her a Jezebel. What’s their evidence? Doug denies doing so. What’s Jen’s evidence? She claims he did so. On what basis are we to believe one over the other. The only one I can think of, apart from a tape recording, would be track record, which can point strongly one way or the other, but which will still not be conclusive.

    It would be interesting to be able to interview members of the congregation to see if “Jezebel” were a word that has been thrown around a lot at BCA. If so, it wouldn’t prove that Jen’s claim is right and that Doug is lying, but it would be an interesting bit of evidence to evaluate.

    And please don’t mention the logic. As an old, crusty logician, I’m used to young folks violating good reasoning, but to call oneself a “fallacy slayer” and engage in the kind of wildly fallacious nonsense I see over there is the height of irony.

    But perhaps I misunderstand. Perhaps he doesn’t mean to say that he slays fallacies. Perhaps he means to say he slays others by means of fallacies. Like those who misuse scripture to attack others, even when they know better — there are those who understand logical fallacies, but go ahead and use them because they know the fallacies they use “work” on many people. They are equally contemptuous.

  33. Jen Says:

    Yes, Bob Renaud is going to Oak Brook, Gothard’s distance ed law school.

    Mike, thanks for bringing up that suggestion that we find a pattern of Doug calling women a “Jezebel.” Since I don’t want to send you to the original post of this claim, I will refer you to someone who quotes from another woman who claims Doug called her a Jezebel; as well. I highly recommend that you NOT go to the original website.

    I know a story about another young lady who was assigned to show Doug Phillips to his workshop location at a homeschool conference. Doug was speaking to her on the way to the classroom and she said something about a particular obligation Doug had toward her brother but Doug refused to fulfill. Doug called her a “Jezebel,” but he didn’t stop there. When he started his workshop, he let the whole audience know what a “Jezebel” this young lady was and said that he feared for the man who married her. Unfortunately, she eventually married a Dougite. She’s probably doomed to hear the “Jezebel” label again later in life.

    Mike, if you remember in my own story, when I accused Doug of calling me a Jezebel, a whore, churlish, a dripping faucet, and disrespectful, that he only denied calling me a whore. I would put more weight on Doug’s own statement than SFU’s.

    It seems to me that Doug wrote a poem about “Jezebels” as well, but I don’t have time to look for it right now. I know he’s mentioned the name “Jezebel” as a derogatory term for one he considers to be a rebellious woman both on his blog and in some of his CDs. The pattern is there if people want proof.

    Oh, and Mike, you’re NOT old!

  34. Cindy Kunsman Says:

    When you boil down Doug and Dougite tactics, as I mentioned in previous replies, DONT YOU THINK THAT HE RELIES PRIMARILY ON AD HOMINEM TACTICS? I dont think that anyone answered or gave an opinion, but I’m curious to hear what the consensus is of my conjecture. And he’s just furious that someone dares to use his favored media of the internet against him. (Perhaps he and Al Gore invented it together?)

    Mark just mentioned the “he said, she said” dilemma. When I posted on the ibelieve.com site, this was a great criticism of the Epstiens for this same reason. (BTW, “Jezebel” was tossed around quite a bit when women criticized or disciplined women, but not often because people were well trained to avoid such confrontations.) But they failed to appreciate the “tyrannical ecclesiastical machine” and its ability to shut down good men like Brother Little Bear Wheeler.

    In such situations, you are entitled in court to make a case for yourself under the “reasonable man” standard. In the common law tradition, legal fictions are suppositions of fact taken to be true by the courts of law, but which are not necessarily true. “How would a hypothetical but reasonable person have reacted under similar circumstances?” What is so sad is that many Christians seem to give less weight to the argument of the “reasonable Epstiens” than the court system would offer them. It is a crying shame.

    I just hope that as “RR” in Virginia has stated, people will see the fuss and draw their own “reasonable conclusions.” The great question, “Why is this huge ministry so worried about one woman who has concocted lies?” makes me wonder. It brings to mind something I read in Chuck Colson’s book about wittnessing in Russia when the Iron Curtain fell (before he went eccumenically insane). He relates the impressions of a young woman who grew up under Communism who said that the constant talk of their being no god made her wonder, if there was none, why did they insist on discussing it all the time? It seems to be the same with “RR” who concluded things much the same way.

    David Z. on my first day posting on this site about two weeks ago chastized me for suggesting that Doug should not care what one liar would have to say, especially if Doug served the Author of All Truth. God will not be mocked and those who trust in Him will not be put to shame. But isn’t that how we’ve been called to conduct ourselves? And there’s nothing in the Word about communication via lawyers. That is another telling piece of the story.

    May these men who stomp about like playground bullies convince more and more people of their “kind of wildy fallacious nonsense” and continue to serve as their own bad press. May more men like “RR” see it and make a stand. And God help us.

  35. Cindy Kunsman Says:

    OOpps! Mike said, not Mark. Or was it Tara? Didn’t mean to fuel the alias problem!

  36. Mike Says:

    I wrote: As an old, crusty logician….

    Jen responded: Oh, and Mike, you’re NOT old!

    LOL! Y’all notice she didn’t say I wasn’t crusty! Hahahaha! Reminds of a line I use often: Back when I was young and ignorant…. but I’m not so young, anymore.

  37. Mike Says:

    “Mark just mentioned the ‘he said, she said’ dilemma.”

    MIKE MIKE MIKE MIKE MIKE MIKE MIKE MIKE

  38. Mike Says:

    Oh, yeah — you’re right, Cindy. I’m supposed to be “Tara” now, anyway. LOL!

  39. Jen Says:

    Mike, I looked up the definition of “crusty:” outspoken and irritable. Now you know why I didn’t say that! Yes, you irritated me to no end!

  40. thatmom Says:

    Jen said:
    “Yes, Bob Renaud is going to Oak Brook, Gothard’s distance ed law school.”

    Maybe someone ought to tell him that he might have a hard time passing the moral fitness part of being licensed as an attorney, especially if he is linked to SFU. Seriously, I wonder if he realizes that his association with all this and his participation in SFU could damage any future career plans he might have down the road when he wants to be an attorney in his post-Doug years.

  41. thatmom Says:

    Here is an interesting link that applies to Bob’s situation, I think, if he is involved in SFU. This article talks about the importance of law students being above board in their internet dealings.

    http://transnationallawblog.typepad.com/transnational_law_blog/2007/04/collateral_dama.html

  42. Bryan Says:

    thatmom:

    Baed upon SFU, I seriously doubt that Bob Renaud gives a hoot about above board dealings, either on the internet or elsewhere.

    Just another typical lawyer. Remember, who’s his mentor?

    It’s more important to these fellows to wear fedoras and have “Esq.” behind their names than it is to do justly, to love mercy, and to walk humbly with our God.

  43. Lynn Says:

    Jen I can’t get that cached link you provided to open — the one about Doug calling a woman a “Jezebel.”

  44. thatmom Says:

    Bryan,

    I don’t think it is fair to lump all attorneys together. My homeschooled son is an awesome lawyer, commited to Christ and to his clients. He has several friends whom I would also put into the same category. And then there is Sarah. We love her now don’t we? 🙂 BTW, did we ever find out if Doug Phillips is licensed anywhere?

  45. Bryan Says:

    Cindy wrote:

    “When you boil down Doug and Dougite tactics, as I mentioned in previous replies, DONT YOU THINK THAT HE RELIES PRIMARILY ON AD HOMINEM TACTICS?”

    Yes, of course he does! There’s no “there” there! 🙂

    I would think that most homeschoolers should be able to readily discern the difference between a site that provides detailed, specific, documentable evidence versus ad hominem tactics wrapped in generalities and flamboyant writing styles as a response. But many become so blinded by allegiance to their pet ministries, they automatically dismiss any criticism of that person or ministry as untrue or irrelevant without having given it any wise review or consideration. (“After all, they’re Reformed; it just isn’t possible for them to be in error.”)

    THAT is the type of non-critical thinking that is indicative of cultism.

    I state this having been a staunch supporter of DP and VF for many years, up until this episode exposed DP’s true colors and hypocrisy.

  46. Bryan Says:

    I know I shouldn’t lump them together. That’s why I used the caveat “typical”. Since your son and his friends (and Sarah too!) are committed to Christ and to their clients, in my book, that puts them way above “typical”! 🙂

  47. Concerned Says:

    I googled Doug Phillips and Jezebel and this Blog came up. It is of the lady who states he called her a Jezebel at a HS Convention.

  48. Morgan Farmer Says:

    Pape Blastus XVII Says:
    June 10th, 2007 at 8:54 pm
    Morgan,

    “porcelain pope…”?

    Had you changed one little letter, you would be cruising for anathema, child. Take care with your too-clever turns of phrase!

    I have spoken.

    And we really care? 🙂

  49. Jen Says:

    Lynn, I’m having a lot of trouble getting that link to post right. I hope it works now, but here it is again. Concerned, I removed your link to the original website because I don’t think it is an appropriate site to be linked to. I do not recommend looking around there.

  50. Corrie Says:

    Concerned,

    Interesting link and picture.

    Does anyone know if that is, indeed, a statue of a little black servant boy in the corner of Doug’s dining room? Someone who was there should be able to confirm that. Jen? Mark?

    Also, it was intersting to see a link to a southern type conference with Wilkins et al where Doug spoke on patriarchy and courtship in the ante-bellum South.

  51. Jen Says:

    Doug is licensed with the DC bar.

  52. Concerned Says:

    Oh,,, sorry Jen. I didn’t read past the first post.

  53. Jen Says:

    Now I know why I shouldn’t tell other people’s stories! The story I told about the young lady at the convention is not quite straight, as I was informed this morning. I do want it to be accurate. Doug did not talk about this young lady in front of the workshop, but he did talk loudly about her in the break area for all the conference speakers and volunteers. I guess there were about 40 people present. He did NOT use the term “Jezebel” to describe her after all, as I had thought, but he did talk loudly about the young man who would have to tame her someday! She was very kind and respectful to Doug, but she didn’t fit his pattern, especially since she had to work her way through Bob to get to Doug to even do her job!

    However, at that same conference, Doug also had several run-ins with Jonathan Lindvall, yelling at him and calling him a “heretic” at the end of at least two different conversations that weekend. Both occasions took place in front of many people at the conference, one in the hallway and one in the crowded vendor hall.

  54. Cynthia Gee Says:

    “Concerned, I removed your link to the original website because I don’t think it is an appropriate site to be linked to. I do not recommend looking around there.”

    Useful information may be found far and wide, not just on Christian blogs.
    It’s your blog, so far be it from me to tell you how to run it, but Jesus ate with sinners and publicans, and long as we go in forewarned, it won’t hurt us to look at the information on non-Christian sites.
    After all, we’ve all seen MrsBino and Still Fed Up… 😉

  55. Corrie Says:

    Jen,

    The link from Concerned has a picture of a dining room allegedly from Phillips’ home and in the corner it looks like he has a statue of a little black servant boy holding a tray. The actual link she posted has nothing objectionable. But, I do think it is important, especially if it is a statue of what this article is saying it is. It was supposedly found on Doug’s blog. Maybe someone knows where we can find the picture at his blog?

    This is a quote from Doug’s blog, May 26, 2003:

    ” Good works and a servant-like spirit are a wonderful antidote to the plague of anti-authoritarian, self-emancipating, philosopher kings which perdiodically infect and neutralize the effectiveness of some of the best and the brightest in Evangelical Christianity.”

    I couldn’t agree more myself. We see a rash of these types of men leading churches. Don’t like submitting to their authorities, so they emancipate themselves and set up their own little kingdom where the buck stops with them.

    http://www.pointsouth.com/southernheritage/9th.html

    Anyone hear the talks given at this conference? It would have been interesting. I wonder if they have tapes? Doug spoke on courtship, marriage and patriarchy in the “Olde South”.

  56. Corrie Says:

    “However, at that same conference, Doug also had several run-ins with Jonathan Lindvall, yelling at him and calling him a “heretic” at the end of at least two different conversations that weekend. Both occasions took place in front of many people at the conference, one in the hallway and one in the crowded vendor hall.”

    Oh, man, the irony! Each one is trying to out-patriarch the other one. Who can be more extreme in their teachings? Well, it seems that they both agree that the wife orbits around the husband like the moon orbits around the earth. They probably also believe that the father is more important to children than the mother. I can’t remember the exact words that Lindvall used but reading his stuff is quite eye-opening if you want to get into the mind of a hyper-patriarch.

    I would have loved to have been at that homeschool convention. I think I was at one in Wisconsin the early to mid nineties when they were both together?

    I agree with Cynthia, Jen, concerning that one link. I think your readers need to read that article. It is short and the comments are not at all bad, nothing compared to Little Geneva and their obsenity, esp. the one site. It has some pertinent information and one doesn’t have to read the whole site in order to read this article.

    I will try and contact the blog owner and see where she got that picture from.

  57. RefCal Says:

    I think Cheryl Linsey probably gave sufficient grounds for anyone to call her Jezebel, based on Rev. 2:20.

    Having done that, it would have been that much easier for Doug to apply the label to someone else he felt was displaying many of the same characteristics (adultery, teaching men, leading people astray).

    He did not specifically deny it when Jen called him on it.

    I would find his denial that he had ever called Jen “Jezebel” about as credible as “I did not have a sexual relationship with that woman.”

    PS something is kinda screwy with Blogger right now, as you may have had problems commenting on Jens Gems or my blog. The Creation Science Lawsuit debacle has really swamped me with hits, whether or not Ministry Watchman sees anything worth pursuing in the matter.

  58. Concerned Says:

    Jen said,

    “However, at that same conference, Doug also had several run-ins with Jonathan Lindvall, yelling at him and calling him a “heretic” at the end of at least two different conversations that weekend. Both occasions took place in front of many people at the conference, one in the hallway and one in the crowded vendor hall.”

    Yikes. Do you know what precipitated this? I know little of Lindvall, but it was my impression he shares a lot of beliefs as VF.

    Does DP have a short temper?

    I was speaking once w/my friend who follows VF’s beliefs very closely, and she told me at a hs convention where Doug spoke he came across as very angry. This is from someone who is a big fan and who attends all of the retreats and functions. I could tell it bothered her, but they are still 100% pro Doug.

  59. Cynthia Gee Says:

    “I agree with Cynthia, Jen, concerning that one link. I think your readers need to read that article. It is short and the comments are not at all bad, nothing compared to Little Geneva and their obsenity, esp. the one site. ”

    Thanks, Corrie. I read Heart’s site, occasionally, I have commented there a few times (so sue me 🙂 ), and I pray for her whenever I think about it. That woman has been through h*ll on account of the HyperP’s, and lost her faith as a result.

    (….and as for sites like Little Geneva, Still Fed Up, and the like, I submit that it’s a whole lot less dangerous to one’s faith to visit an openly nonChristian site, than to visit one that pretends to be Christian and isn’t.)

  60. Bryan Says:

    Jen:

    You have been to the Phillips’ house; can you recall if they have a frog servant statue or a blackface servant statue?
    Giving them the benefit of the doubt that it is indeed a frog statue (how that would fit into the Southern decor is beyond me), it doesn’t negate the “Hail Dabney” attitude that DP has that would lead most reasonable thinkgin people to suspect that he is a racist. The thing about DP is, he probably doesn’t think he IS a racist!

    I thought that blog was interesting and I did not visit any other parts of the site. The picture sure is interesting!

    That blog linked to it from VF’s site, here

  61. Lynn Says:

    “However, at that same conference, Doug also had several run-ins with Jonathan Lindvall, yelling at him and calling him a “heretic” at the end of at least two different conversations that weekend. Both occasions took place in front of many people at the conference, one in the hallway and one in the crowded vendor hall.”

    Someone whom I believe to be highly credible about relating facts told me that Bill Gothard (another hyper-patriarchalist) got peeved at Doug Phillips and openly castigated Phillips’ idea at some convention where they were together.

    The issue was over marrying early or delaying marriage. The individual (and many others) told me Gothard is a big proponent of delaying marriage until somewhere around 30, and Phillips is all for younger marriages.

    I agree with Corrie on this one — it is sad, yet somewhat amusing to hear about all these hyperpatriarchs clobbering each other, and probably for the most part about nonessential matters of Christian doctrine (though I don’t know what was up with the Lindvall/Phillips thing).

    In Gothard’s case, Phillips’ idea of early marriage would wreak havoc on all the “free help” Gothard has to staff his Training Centers, and that might be one reason Gothard was upset with Phillips promoting this.

  62. Corrie Says:

    So, that *is* a frog faced serving boy?

  63. Praying For Revealing Says:

    Jen said, “It seems to me that Doug wrote a poem about ‘Jezebels’ as well, but I don’t have time to look for it right now.”

    The Patriarch
    by: Doug Phillips

    More noble than the valiant deeds of shining knights of yore,
    More powerful than earthly plights that make the rich man poor,
    More kingly than a royal throne or a lion with his pride,
    Is he whose babes sleep well at night sure Daddy will provide.

    There is a spirit in this land and Jezebel’s her name.
    She’s calling you to leave your home for power, fun, and fame.
    She wants your wife, your children too — she’ll never compromise,
    Until your house is torn in two by listening to her lies.

    But though a hundred thousand million men may fall prey to her lures,
    And wives en masse leave home in search of “more fulfilling” chores,
    Though preachers praise, and friends embrace, her pagan plan of death,
    Stand strong and quit you like a man with every blessed breath.

    Stand strong and rise, O man of God, to meet this noble call,
    The battle is not new you see, it’s been here since the Fall.

    Your wife is your helpmeet, my friend, and not another man’s,
    So care for her and keep her far from Mistress Jezi’s plans.
    Protect, provide, and give to her your undivided life,
    This is the dear one of your youth, your precious bride, your wife.

    And rally to those tiny ones who trust you for their care —
    A lifetime spent discipling them’s a lifetime pure and rare.
    For when they put their hand in yours and know a Daddy’s love,
    You’re showing them a picture of the Father from above.

    Look not toward worldly goal or gain, or for your liberty,
    Look only into their sweet eyes to find your ministry.
    Devote your heart and sacrifice and make your manly mark —
    There is none so great as he who finds his call as patriarch.

  64. Bryan Says:

    Corrie wrote:

    “So, that *is* a frog faced serving boy?”

    So Corrie, it is YOU that is *truly* the racist, calling a black serving boy “frog faced”?

    Oh, the SHAME of these Epstein supporters; Kinists and Racists.

    (sarcasm off)

    I thought your comments was funny! 🙂

  65. Cynthia Gee Says:

    LOL…..I think that it IS a frog though. If you enlarge the picture, it looks like a frog or a toad, in Colonial garb.

  66. Jen Says:

    Concerned, Cynthia, and Corrie, while there is nothing wrong with that particular link Concerned posted, I do have concerns with the rest of that site and I would hate for anyone to stumble on her vivid descriptions of her lesbianism and feminism. I don’t mind most links, but I wouldn’t want to cause anyone here to stumble. So, forewarned is forearmed. Here is the link again: Doug’s dining room.

    Corrie, that statue in the corner of Doug’s dining room is of a frog, which is some favorite character of Doug and Beall from their courtship days.

    Concerned, I think Doug controls his temper, but seethes inwardly often. Every once in a while, it appears that what is truly in his heart makes its way to the surface.

  67. RefCal Says:

    ‘In Gothard’s case, Phillips’ idea of early marriage would wreak havoc on all the “free help” Gothard has to staff his Training Centers,’

    I notice you have ‘free help’ in quotes.
    In fact, they pay a pretty princely sum for the privilege of serving.

  68. Cynthia Gee Says:

    “More kingly than a royal throne or a lion with his pride,
    Is he whose babes sleep well at night sure Daddy will provide.”

    Nice work if you can get it.
    But what about the babes whose daddies aren’t professional men and whose grandfathers aren’t multimillionaires? What about those who live in Appalachia or in the inner city or on reservations, whose daddies can’t find a job that pays more than $9 an hour, and whose parents are criticized — both by the world, for having more children than they can house and feed, and by some in the church, for not having as many children as they possibly can, and for not having a job that wil allow them to do so, even though no such jobs exist in their area that will hire them?
    What about THOSE babes, and their daddies?

  69. Cindy Kunsman Says:

    You know,
    (This is completely in jest…)

    The old Pentecostal ladies (and men, but they don’t notice such things) forever carried on about the evils of the representations (IDOLS!) of frogs because they were touted to attract demonic spirits. (That may have been more Old Germanic Spritism from PA Dutch Country, however. It’s hard to say.) They were also wound up about owls, but I think the frogs signified the plagues of Egypt. (Funny how none of them thought it strange or dangerous that I had a collection of cat figurines – also worshiped in Egypt. Go figure.)

  70. Cynthia Gee Says:

    “The old Pentecostal ladies (and men, but they don’t notice such things) forever carried on about the evils of the representations (IDOLS!) of frogs because they were touted to attract demonic spirits. ”

    LOL… I’ve known some ladies like that. I always thought that it was too bad that these ladies weren’t around at Creation, to advise God not to make frogs, cats, owls, etc., because they would later “attract demons”….just think of all of the trouble it would have saved the human race.
    Sheesh!

  71. Cindy Kunsman Says:

    What Ho!

    I finally linked to that site with the photo. It’s not a frog, it’s JEEVES! He’s a personal wooden butler with a tiny tray to hold your cigarette lighter or your TV remote (oh, wait, Doug won’t have any of those things.)

    Seriously, they sold them for over $150 at the Bombay Company back when I still had money, sense and time to hang out at the mall which would now be about 15 years ago, so I didn’t buy one. He’s named for the PG Wodehouse character in the Bertie and Jeeves series.

    Very chic.

  72. Cindy Kunsman Says:

    What Ho, again!

    Andrew Sandlin just posted this on his blog:
    http://www.andrewsandlin.net/?p=539

    The Cults Among Us
    Can Christians fall into cultic tendencies? You’d better believe it. Check out the new site devoted to exposing this cultism, “Under Much Grace.”

    Anyone game?

  73. Morgan Farmer Says:

    He’s named for the PG Wodehouse character in the Bertie and Jeeves series.

    I LOVE PG WODEHOUSE…Jeeves & Bertie!!!!

    Since you ‘went there’ Cindy ;)….I guess its’ up to me to critique the Phillips’ dining table setting.

    1. NEVER EVER use anything other than a white table cloth and napkins. The cloth and napkins must be lightly starched.
    2. Dessert forks and spoons MUST ALWAYS be placed at the top of each plate.
    3. ALL place settings MUST be the same distance from the edge of the table.
    4. Any plates/dishes other than place settings MUST be placed centered so that guests can reach them easily.

    And for the record…..YES when we are having a formal-I-really-want-to-make-you-feel-like-you-are-special-holiday-or-whatever-the-occasion-is-dinner…these are the guidelines used at my house.

    The nerve…trying to by uppity and not being even remotely close….DP and family wanna be minions have no idea how to be southern and uppity.

    Best, Morgan

  74. Jen Says:

    I just realized something about that frog. Doug is a very strong proponent of taking the second commandment literally. “Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth.” I always thought he took this to an extreme, but now he has this carved image of a frog in his dining room. I wonder how he justifies it.

  75. Bryan Says:

    Cindy:

    Cindy:

    Followed the links from Sandlin. Great letter to American Vision regarding Doug Phillips’ “cultism”. I think Gary DeMar should ask his other good buddy Hank Haanegraff to weigh in on DP’s “cultism”.


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