Pastor Writes In To Say Doug Phillips Is “Incredibly Dangerous”

Hi Jen:

I am a pastor in Colorado and have had the grueling task of “re-discipling” many whose lives (and families) were turned upside down by Doug Phillips and Vision Forum (Tit 1:11). I just wanted to drop you a line and say “keep up the good work.” Men like Phillips must be exposed before they do more harm. My first “red flag” with his organization came the moment I saw (or heard) one of their core beliefs, “the family is the foundational institution of society.”

Nowhere in the Scripture is that ever stated. As a matter of fact, it is blatantly against what the Scripture teaches. Jesus teaches us that it is the church (not the family) which is the foundational institution of society (Mat 16:18; 1Ti 3:15). “It is the city on the hill” which causes the world to sit up and take notice.

Once again–keep being faithful–you are an encouragement to many I’m sure. Men like Phillips rule by intimidation much the same way other cult leaders do, and therefore it takes strong courageous people like yourself coming out against them–before others will be freed also. And let me assure you that what you are doing is biblical. We (as Christians) are to be “exposing the deeds of darkness” (Eph 5). Though there are some things Phillips does which are good–it is the “leaven” mixed in which spoils the whole batch and makes him incredibly dangerous.

Scott Jarrett

Pastor, Sovereign Grace Bible Church

www.sovereigngracebc.org

Note: see Pastor Jarrett’s related article: The Church: God’s Foundational Institution

256 Responses to “Pastor Writes In To Say Doug Phillips Is “Incredibly Dangerous””

  1. CynthiaGee Says:

    This kind of me-first or mine-first mentality is also the most pervasive and most destructive effect of Original Sin. Competitiveness is the result of pride and selfishness.
    Now, on the surface, putting one’s family first looks like a good thing — after all, it IS a step above pure selfishness, where one cares only for one’s self, but your family is still YOURS, and in the case of family competitiveness, the family becomes an extension of the individual — ie, MY seed vs. YOUR seed. But in the end, it still boils down to selfishness.

  2. Jen Says:

    I have noticed that while Doug’s tenets may be somewhat technically correct, how they play out in real life is often totally different. Also, when we take his more current teachings into account, we see that he really doesn’t practice exactly what is written in his tenets, whether they are biblical or not. That is why I wanted to emphasize that while Mike may agree with Doug’s words on this particular tenet, how this works in real life is very different for the two of them and should be for us as well.

  3. thatmom Says:

    “Blanket training ? Tricking a baby or toddler with a cookie ?

    TWISTED ! Where do these ideas come from? Sounds a lot like child abuse. Maybe we should call the ATF and have them schdule a WACO style raid on Vision Forum. You think?”

    I have been out of town and a still gone, trying to keep up with all the reading here. But I just had to add a couple things.

    First, didn’t the blanket exercise originate with the Pearls?

    And. secondly, where is spanking a child commanded in Scripture, Micah?

  4. Jen Says:

    thatmom, I first learned about blanket training from one of Gothard’s leaders. I have used Pearl’s methods for years, and although there are some similarities, he does not advocate blanket training.

  5. thatmom Says:

    If someone else has already said this, I apologize. I have just read so many posts I don’t know if I really read something or was responding in my head…..sorry.

    We have experienced both extremes in churches. We went to a church whone pastor embraces what he calls “ecclesiocentricity” in that all things revolve around the church. However, his interpretation is that he means the local church and really I think he meant eldercentricity but of course he couldn’t say that. Anyway, we began attending this church because we had been led to believe that it was homeschooler friendly.

    You see, we had been members of an Evangelical Free church where, at the time, there were very few homeschoolers. The chemistry between us and the church itself became bad, in part, because the church was so focused on programs etc. that there was a resentment toward those of us who wanted to spend more time with our own children.

    So, we ended up in a church that was supposedly homeschooler friendly, only to find out that that view of this local church only existed in the mind of one elder, who purposely set out to invite many homeschooling families. When the number of homeschoolers reached a tipping point, there was the inevitable reaction. And, looking back over that whole experience, I now believe that, speaking just for myself, things could have been done much more graciously by the homeschoolng families. But we thought we were leading a righteous cause, fueled by the likes of Gothard and Phillips at their conferences and through their materials. Homeschoolers against the world, don’t you know.

    When that experiment didn’t work out, for a number of reasons, we were led to help start a family integrated church. It, too, became a failed experiment for our own family simply because we were naive and ignorant. We didn’t realize that patriarchy has an awful lot of illegitmate step children that come along with the whole deal….racism, misogyny, etc. Silly us, we thought patriarchy meant a father leadinghis family in daily worship, serving his wife and loving her as himself, and setting aside his own interests to build solid relationships with his children.

    Now, we have come somewhat full circle. We are in an awesome church that is large and full of programs, though we pick and choose what our family will do,mostly because we live 45 minutes from church and it is impossible to do everything. My children are growing spiritually more than I have ever seen, I believe, because we have a pastor who preaches the Word and has no weird agenda. He homeschools his own children but not once in the little over 2 years we have beent here have we heard him even mention that at all. Instead, he uses every opportunity to preach the Gospel of grace, to exhort mothers and fathers to train their children, and to inspire us to have a biblical worldview that includes the importance of evangelism. We all are experiencing the blessing of grace in ways I never new existed. The key is that our pastor preaches the Word and trusts that the Holy Spirit is guiding his own children to truth and understanding, knowing that the application of truth will not necessarily look the same for each believer.

    I want to encourage anyone who is struggling as a homeschooler in a church that doesn’t meet the needs of their family to really take a long hard look at what you are doing. Are you, individually and as a family, in the Word on a daily basis without all the voodoo that these teachers place on you?

    Not long after we had come through our own abusive experience, a friend suggested that we read through the Gospels and then the book of Acts, pretending like we had never read it before. He guaranteed that we would see things in a different light. How true was that experience. Free from the bondage of patriocentric AND ecclesiocentric legalism, we began to rebuild the sweet relationship with Jesus that had drawn us to homeschooling in the first place.

    Sorry, Jen, for the length.

  6. Lynn Says:

    Jen, I know this is off-topic for this thread, but I was stunned to read this blog entry, claiming that FPC violated PCA policy and procedures in your case:

    http://church-discipline.blogspot.com/2007/07/follow-up-on-jens-gems-fpc-position-and.html

    This would seem to be good material for a follow-up article on FPC.

  7. Morgan Farmer Says:

    Lynn thanks for the link…..how good it is to see someone FINALLY say publicly that FPC was in error.

    …..and commenting to ‘That Mom’ above…..I still can’t get over the fact that homeschoolong is such an item of division between brethern in churches. We have families (in our OPC Church) that homeschool, families whose children are in public school, families whose children are in christian school and we all get along….can someone PLEASE explain the 1, NEED for these divisions and strifes and 2, the reason for these divisions….

    I use ‘need’ above because reading and rereading these posts it seems that its an us versus them mentality…..what’s with that?

    My children are grown, I have grandchildren so I am not actively involved in homeschooling but I know lots of homeschoolers…and to tell the truth NONE of them exhibit the dysfunctionality (?) and insanity of the stories that I have seen here on this blog.

    What am I missing? The whole divisions among hopmeschoolers issue(s) seem(s) so stupid, idiotic and a waste of valuable time and energy.

    …and Jen …its time for the FPC article. The cats out of the bag. 😉

  8. K. Says:

    UHHH – that article was interesting as were the links on their page . . . .

  9. Lynn Says:

    K, the blog host is not a believer. He or she is interested in the subject of spiritual abuse and church discipline on account of knowing a 19 year old who became suicidal from some kind of church discipline (according to the blog host).

    The fact that unbelievers are watching places like FPC and how they blow off their own policies should be a wake-up call.

  10. K. Says:

    Lynn:

    Ok – thanks for clarifying.

  11. Joan Hathcote Says:

    Morgan asks, “What am I missing? The whole divisions among homeschooler issue(s) seem(s) so stupid, idiotic and a waste of valuable time and energy.”

    Joan says: Well, Morgan, you’re right. It seems like it wouldn’t be an issue. But, as someone (and I say this VERY hesitantly, because I already know how this information is going to color so many people’s perceptions of me here) who does NOT homeschool, and as someone who came to this decision after MUCH prayer, study, and a whole host of other factors, I can tell you that yes, this division does exist.

    I’ve done a great deal of thinking as to WHY this division exists among some homeschoolers and some non-homeschoolers. I believe the fault lies on both sides, and then again, with no one in particular, except maybe the devil.

    I think the two lifestyle choices (homeschooling versus public schooling) are so different, and involve such conflicting convictions, that those who have chosen one direction have a difficult time respecting anything about those who have chosen the other direction.

    And while I realize that especially 20 years ago or so, homeschoolers got a lot more of this discrimination than their “schooling” counterparts, it seems to me that the pendulum in conservative Christian circles has really swung the other way now.

    We attend a church where just about all the families homeschool. And there is just this vibe. It’s nothing that anyone SAYS. But…it reminds me of one of our friends who is a strict vegetarian. She never SAID anything to make us feel bad for eating meat while she feasted on veggies. But there was, implicit in her rejection of meat, a judgment.

    And that’s the vibe that I, as a non-homeschooling parent, feel. Not from everyone. But there are quite a few homeschooling moms who, by the very fact of how much effort it takes to homeschool well, by the very sacrifices they are making, can’t help but think that they are somehow a litle more spiritual, a little bit of a better parent.

    Also hidden right below the surface is this judgment against us, as though there is NO WAY that we put any thought into our children’s education at all. Implicit is the assumption that if we were just a bit more informed, just a bit more “spiritually sensitive,” we’d come around to their way of thinking.

    I have an essay up on my blog (albeit from almost a year ago, before I learned anything about Doug Phillips or the Patriarchal philosophical underpinnings of the movement) that outlines all of our reasons for choosing (at least for now) to have our children in a public school. I password-protected it awhile back because I grew weary of wading through the negative feedback it received. Almost everyone disliked what I had to say. No one seemed able to concede even my most obvious, undeniable points.

    So, it’s been my experience that while I can understand someone’s decision to teach their kids at home, and while I don’t have any trouble respecting them for it, THEY seem to have issues with appreciating why I’ve (for now) rejected their system.

    I think it’s because the homeschoolers I know basically subscribe to the notion that homeschooling is “God’s best” for Christian children. In other words, if you do NOT homeschool, then you are making an inferior educational choice. And, as we’ve discussed in other conversations on this blog, it’s just a short hop and skip from THAT notion (the “not God’s best” notion) to the idea that anything other than homeschooling is SIN.

    I think in part it DOES have to do with Doug Phillips and his ilk and the propaganda they distribute.

    So, Morgan, if you’re wondering why homeschooling can often be a divisive issue, it’s because…the decision to homeschool just DIVIDES. If you reject traditional school, particularly public school, then you tend to lose respect for (and part ways with) those who don’t see life the way you do.

    (And for every one of you homeschooling moms reading what I’ve just written, who would immediately poo-poo the idea that you look down on non-homeschoolers, I’d like to ask you something. If you’re really truly honest with yourselves, I’ll bet that most of you would have to admit that you DO think less of me for having my kids in public school…that there can’t possibly be any room for Christian kids in the public system….and you’re already thinking of how to persuade me to change my convictions. Am I right? I hope I’m not…but in my experience, this has, sadly, been the case.)

  12. CynthiaGee Says:

    Joan said, “So, Morgan, if you’re wondering why homeschooling can often be a divisive issue, it’s because…the decision to homeschool just DIVIDES.”

    Joan, there’s more to it than that.
    Although she was speaking of patriarchy, not homeschooling, Thatmom captured the essence of the problem earlier when she said, “We didn’t realize that patriarchy has an awful lot of illegitmate step children that come along with the whole deal….racism, misogyny, etc. ”

    Like patriarchy, homeschooling carries baggage which it inherits from its original promoters, and it’s a pretty smelly cargo.
    I’m friends with a lot of unbelievers, and they may not know much about what Christianity IS, but they can sure tell you what it ISN’T, and racism pretty well tops the list. In the eyes of “the world”, homeschooling is inextricably linked to people like the Pearls, Steve Wilkins, and Gothard — in other words, to child abuse, racism, and general creepiness — and even though some Christians are still tolerant of such things, by and large, unbelievers have
    come to the point where even their natural unsaved consciences convict them that these things are WRONG. When unbelievers begin to hold the moral high ground over Christians, the cause of Christ founders — as Paul wrote to the Romans, 2:23, “Thou that makest thy boast of the law, through breaking the law dishonourest thou God?
    Rom 2:24 For the name of God is blasphemed among the Gentiles through you, as it is written.”

    You might think that the opinions of non-believers aren’t really important here, but really, their opinions are paramount — THEY are the ones we are supposed to be trying to reach for Christ, we Christians have nothing to gain by trying to convert each other.

  13. Joan Hathcote Says:

    Cynthia, that’s an interesting point. Literally just the other day, I was emailing a friend about how conflicted I had been feeling about our church. I love our church, love so much about it. BUT…if someone who knew NOTHING beforehand about Christianity came to Christ in our church, they would probably soon arrive at the conviction that in order to be a “good Christian,” they would need to pull their kids out of school, homeschool, and then participate in other cultural choices like courtship.

    NONE of this is in our church’s doctrine. They don’t subscribe (at least as far as I know) to any of Doug’s “Tenets.” BUT…if 98% of a church does something, it might as well be in the official doctrine.

    And lately, that has been bugging me. When a lifestyle choice is promoted (either directly or indirectly) as a doctrinal position, something’s off kilter.

  14. Concerned Says:

    Joan,

    I ASSURE you that as a hser I do NOT look down on you for sending your children to ps. Perhaps this is because we attend a church where the majority of families do NOT hs. I know way too many godly families who have godly children that attend ps.

    Sadly, I do know many hsers who do look down on those who do not hs. I am sorry for that.

    Ironically I just read this from Jonathan Lindvall (a proponent of patriarchy) before reading your post here.

    ***
    Recently I have had the privilege of discussing with the elders of three different churches some conclusions I have come to regarding the qualifications of leaders. Based on the list of qualifications of bishops and deacons in 1 Timothy 3, I have concluded that someone whose children are educated in government (or even private) schools is scripturally unqualified to hold either of these leadership offices.*****

    http://www.boldchristianliving.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=10&Itemid=25

    This saddens me DEEPLY. .

    Keep up the good and godly work of raising your children for HIM.

  15. Morgan Farmer Says:

    So I guess there is just something wrong with me then not seeing homeschooling as such an oh my the world is ending issue. It seems as though there are some that would like to leave the insanity behind but are afraid to because of what others may say.

    About half of my homeschooling friends are not believers, they are military, moms who travel with their kids and husbands bands, and pilots wives who choose to homeschool in a foreign country rather than pay the exhorbitant tuition to the local ‘American School’. So now I guess maybe you all can see from my view why all the fuss is so ignorant.

    All it speaks to is who is trying to be the better christian…I wonder what Jesus would say if he were here……oh wait a minute…He would be run out of town quick …

    I was in a church that promoted weird theology stuff like the stuff thats been discussed on this blog….it never made sense to me when all I wanted and still do..is Jesus. A lot of people really need to get a life and stay out of other peoples business.

    I checked out the link to the blog about church discipline. The author is not a believer..who cares? He has been able to look at the situation from an truly objective standpoint…something that we as believers seem unable to do in any situation. He called it spot on too…..
    Seems like BCA/FPC ought to be ashamed that a ‘heathen’ figured it out just by looking at the facts.

    To love mercy…
    To do justice…
    To walk humbly with my God and
    To love the Lord my God with all my heart and soul and strength and mind..and my neighbor as myself…

    That is enough for me to keep up with on any given day….how about the rest of you….why make mountains out of molehills? Why is the choice always to be at odds with our brethern just because they make different choices?

    Was I being judgemental when I emailed the gentleman who was visiting our office if he had any special dietary needs or desires? No I hope I was was being polite…what if I had peanuts as a snack and he was allergic to them?

    Each and every one of us is different and unique. We have different needs, likes, dislikes and preferences in everything. Why do we make that out to be such a bad thing?

  16. Corriejo Says:

    “First, didn’t the blanket exercise originate with the Pearls?”

    Thatmom,

    Yes, I believe it did. But, it wasn’t with a blanket. It was when they were setting up “training exercises” for toddlers where they would test the toddler to see if they would touch their valuable and then they would whack them when they did.

    In the Gothard Discussion archives, I posted actual notes from one of the blanket training sessions at Knoxville (it was during a panel discussion) where someone said how exciting it was to beat babies.

    And I think the Duggars mention blanket training in one of their TLC episodes and they use a wooden spoon to scare the baby into compliance. There is a lot on the Duggars and Blanket Training and what the world thinks of this if you Google it but you have to really look hard to find it.

    Did you get a load of Kevin Swanson’s statement concerning beating children and leaving bruises?

    Yes, it makes me PROUD, I tell you PROUD to be a homeschooler! 😛

  17. Corriejo Says:

    http://www.objectiveministries.org/creation/sciencefair.html

    Check out this site for a look at what people teach their kids and how it comes out in their science fair projects.

    Here is the 2nd place winning project in the middle school division:

    Yep. Women were designed with a lower center of gravity in order to carry groceries and laundry baskets. My husband said that he thinks we were made with a lower center of gravity for wrestling! 😉

    Is it any wonder that unbelievers mock the things of God?

    “2nd Place: “Women Were Designed For Homemaking”
    Jonathan Goode (grade 7) applied findings from many fields of science to support his conclusion that God designed women for homemaking: physics shows that women have a lower center of gravity than men, making them more suited to carrying groceries and laundry baskets; biology shows that women were designed to carry un-born babies in their wombs and to feed born babies milk, making them the natural choice for child rearing; social sciences show that the wages for women workers are lower than for normal workers, meaning that they are unable to work as well and thus earn equal pay; and exegetics shows that God created Eve as a companion for Adam, not as a co-worker.”

  18. Joan Hathcote Says:

    Morgan, I so totally agree with you. To homeschool or not to homeschool should not even be an issue among Christians. But unfortunately, it just IS an issue for some people.

    Like I said, I’m not bothered in the least by homeschooling families. I’ve even said that if things change as my kids get older, I’d have no hesitation over homeschooling them at some point. I know for a fact that other Christian families in my girls’ public elementary school feel this same way. We’re OK with homeschooling. If that’s your conviction, great. It just doesn’t happen to be our conviction or choice right now. (And not because we haven’t put just as much thought and prayer into this decision as have our homeschooling counterparts.)

    BUT, when I’ve tried to dialogue with homeschooling families, particularly those of the “Patriarchal” persuasion, I find that there is not ANY reciprocal “tolerance” (for lack of a better word) for my conviction about public schools. None. In fact, if anything, those I’ve dialogued with almost immediately want to point out all that is wrong with my conviction.

    The more that I read and study, the more I’ve come to believe that these people’s singlemindedness about homeschooling stems from the philosophical underpinnings of the homeschooling conferences they attend and the materials they use. When you have Doug Phillips and the “Patriarchs” asserting that homeschooling is ALWAYS “God’s best” for Christian children, you almost can’t come to any other conclusion than that those who do not homeschool are inferior Christians and are sinning.

  19. Corriejo Says:

    Forget the last link, it is a parody.

  20. CynthiaGee Says:

    Maybe your link was a parody, but it reminded me of this, which is all too real :

    “God thought a lot about how to create women. Instead of making women taller than men He made women a little shorter, but with bigger hips. Why? Because women are to assume two roles. First, in giving birth to children women need a strong foundation, and second, they will be living most of their lives in a sitting position, so God provided built-in cushions. Men have narrow hips without cushions because men are supposed to be active for the sake of women. From the very beginning God was thinking that a man is supposed to take the initiative and always be in action. A woman is to be objective, receiving grace from her husband, and always sitting home comfortably waiting for him. That is the way it should be. At the same time a man should be masculine, and that is why he has broad shoulders and strong arms. Going out into the world is the man’s role. “

  21. CynthiaGee Says:

    “Based on the list of qualifications of bishops and deacons in 1 Timothy 3, I have concluded that someone whose children are educated in government (or even private) schools is scripturally unqualified to hold either of these leadership offices”

    NOW, here’s the part that doesn’t make sense.
    Stop, listen, what’s that sound: these guys are even against Christian schools. WHAT ARE THEY SO AFRAID OF, that even normal Christian schools are seen as unacceptable ???

  22. CynthiaGee Says:

    “Based on the list of qualifications of bishops and deacons in 1 Timothy 3, I have concluded that someone whose children are educated in government (or even private) schools is scripturally unqualified to hold either of these leadership offices”

    Looks like neither Jesus nor Paul would be scripturally qualified to hold these offices either. In Jesus’s day, Jewish boys between the ages of 6 and 13 were sent to a school taught by the local rabbi, who taught them reading, writing, arithmetic, and religion. After that, some continued their studies under the rabbi or a tutor, as Paul undoubtedly did, or else they learned their father’s trade. But they DID attend school back then – their mothers didn’t teach them at home.

  23. Jen Says:

    Corrie, you are correct in thinking that the Pearls do teach young babies not to touch certain things by setting up “training sessions” for them, but I do believe blanket training was a Gothardite teaching LONG before the Pearls came along. The lady who taught us blanket training at BCA had done it with her babies and they are now well into their twenties, several of them. You may remember her as the lady who made all the child training videos for ATI, although I don’t want to name her here.

    Morgan, I began homeschooling while we were stationed overseas with the Army. You are in a different world, definitely. The military community is the most non-judgmental community of people, Christian or not, homeschooling or not, of any group of people I’ve ever met. One of the most important things a fellow homeschooler ever taught me about homeschooling came from an atheist, so I totally understand what you are talking about. Life is SO different outside that environment, though.

    This is only slightly off-topic, but since you reminded me, Morgan, there are some areas of “church” that the military does right. I was in a military ladies’ Bible study group in Germany for six years, sponsored by the chapel. We averaged about 50 ladies each week, from every denomination imaginable (protestant). Some Bible studies were lightweight, but others were quite in depth. In my six years of serving there, I cannot remember even one argument among all those different beliefs. We discussed only what the Bible said, in context. We were quick to be there for one another when there was a need and there was lots of fellowship. I just remember being amazed that no one even cared what church we all went to on Sundays.

    We have that a little bit here on this blog and I love that.

  24. CynthiaGee Says:

    I like it too, Jen, and also the frank, open way that people discuss things here. No pussyfooting around things, no simpering — it’s all very straightforward, and I like that.

  25. Corrie Says:

    Cynthia,

    ” First, in giving birth to children women need a strong foundation, and second, they will be living most of their lives in a sitting position, so God provided built-in cushions”

    I did think of the “women have big butts” teaching.

    I don’t know where this guy gets this from (I think this was written in Victorian times?) but in my home, I don’t sit down at all. I do everything standing including email. I am way TOO busy to sit down. I probably spend about 12 hours on my feet.

    ” A woman is to be objective, receiving grace from her husband, and always sitting home comfortably waiting for him.”

    Oh yeah!! This sounds nice and I wish it were so. I would like to sit comfortably all day waiting for my husband but who would do all the grocery shopping, cooking, cleaning, painting, yardwork, laundry, schooling, etc??? The maids, nannies, tutors and servants?

    It doesn’t sound like the picture of the Proverbs 31 woman, though.

  26. Corrie Says:

    Joan,

    I want to assure you that I do not think less of you at all. In fact I think MORE of you because you are a woman who stands unafraid for the choices you make and that you know that your judge is God and no man.

    I do not know what tomorrow may bring for me but I may just have children in public school some day.

    I do understand why non-homeschoolers feel judged. I have sat in conversations where homeschoolers are dogmatically talking about how much better homeschooling is and how parents who send their kids to school are negligent and this is right in front of public school sending parents! I have cringed way too many times!

  27. Corrie Says:

    Moderator,

    Thanks for posting that link to Pastor Jarrett’s blog. I agree with what he wrote. Not that it means anything. 🙂

  28. Joan Hathcote Says:

    “Concerned” and Corrie…thanks for your kind words. And Jen and Cynthia, I too enjoy the frank and honest discussions that take place here. Jen, thanks for permitting all these comments, even when they occasionally stray from your chosen topic. I’ve learned much from everyone.

    Cynthia, that stuff about Christian-schooled people being disqualified for church leadership just boggles my mind. Really. Is there some sort of “grandfather clause,” though? I mean, since homeschooling didn’t really catch on until about 20 years ago, at the very earliest, do they have a cut-off date for when leaders simply MUST have been homeschooled? (I’m only being somewhat facetious…I really am curious as to what they’d say.)

  29. CynthiaGee Says:

    I just want to know WHAT THEIR GAME IS.
    They use the excuse that the public schools are anti-Christian to bolster thair argument that everyone should homeschool. But what about parochial schools? They are against these too, and I wonder, what are they afraid will happen if kids attend a parochial school?
    Maybe these guys are afraid that these kids will actually learn to read the Bible for themselves. They SHOULD be afraid of that, because anyone who can read can pick up a Bible and see that the “gospel” that these guys are teaching is not the “faith once given to the saints.”

  30. RR Says:

    I attended a private Christian school for four years and frankly I think my home schooled friends had it easy. I would have preferred skipping the Christian school experience in favor of public school.

  31. Joan Hathcote Says:

    Oops, Cynthia, I mis-read your quote. I thought it was saying that LEADERS had to have been homeschooled in order to be qualified…but instead, it said that they could not be leaders if they didn’t homeschool their own kids.

    Not quite the same, but still amazing and still sad.

    Since reading tends to be a strength for most homeschooled kids, I’d hesitate to say that these folks don’t want kids to learn how to read.

    I just think their requirement for Christian leadership is merely two logical steps away from asserting that homeschooling is “God’s best.” If you believe that homeschooling is “God’s best” for all Christian kids, the next logical step is to assert that anything other than homeschooling is a sin. And obviously, if one is living in sin, one wouldn’t be qualified to be a church leader.

  32. CynthiaGee Says:

    “Since reading tends to be a strength for most homeschooled kids, I’d hesitate to say that these folks don’t want kids to learn how to read.”

    So would I. But again, I wonder what their game is?
    Whenever a situation persists which at first glance makes no real sense, look at who benefits by that situation, and HOW they benefit, and you’ll find your answer.
    These men are preaching that only men who homeschool their kids are qualified to be church leaders. WHY? Obviously they want people to homeschool, and they want it badly; AND, they want people in positions of church leadership who AGREE with them in this (and probably with the other positions that commonly tie in with Christian homeschooling: courtship, etc.).
    NOW, in previous generations, most men seeking church leadership would have been educated either in the public school system or IDEALLY, in Christian schools, and their children likewise. But in the last 30 years, we see this switch, this sudden push for homeschooling, and since the switch, even Christian schools are being anathematized. This gives the lie to the claim that homeschooling is being presented as a Christian alternative to the public school system: we can see that these men are not anti-PUBLIC school, they are ANTI-SCHOOL, period, while remaining PRO-LITERACY.
    Now, why do you think this is? In the past, many churches operated private schools, where selected teachers taught church-approved materials to children; this was considered the IDEAL learning situation for Christian youth.

    What has changed? What happens or what do children (and parents) recieve in a Christian school setting that is absent from a homeschooling situation, and why do these men fear it so much?

  33. Cindy Kunsman Says:

    New info from MCOI in an email update (that you can request for free) alerting to new blog post “Doug Phillips – New Paganism?”

    He identifies what he calls the “top-down” authority structure (discussed at greater length in the MCOI article which is now available) as a pagan and not a Christian concept.
    http://midwestoutreach.org/blogs/?p=41

    MORE info about a previous posting on the last thread…

    It looks like there’s a new post here:
    http://church-discipline.blogspot.com/2007/07/follow-up-on-jens-gems-fpc-position-and.html

  34. Concerned Says:

    I think they are opposed to Christian Schools for the same reason they oppose SS. They believe it is wrong for anyone except the Father to impart Spiritual Wisdom to children. Our VF friend once asked me my dh’s (a S. Baptist Preacher) take on the SS issue. I told her he felt that parents should have the option to choose if they wanted their children to attend SS or not.

    She was dismayed, and emphatically said it was the Father’s responsibility to teach Scripture and he should not abdicate it to SS. I asked her what about the 60% of children who have no father in the home of impart wisdom, and she said than the children should watch the other men in the church and how they served to get that wisdom.

    All of that, and doncha know;o) SS, PS, and CS are all based on darwinism, marxism, humanism…

    Cynthia Gee has a good point… why do these men not want their children to sit under another’s Bible teaching. What is so dangerous? Did Joseph not send Jesus to the Temple to be taught?

  35. Morgan Farmer Says:

    “We have that a little bit here on this blog and I love that.”

    Yes we ceratinly do..I am relieved that you could relate to what I was saying….there are so many things in life that we choose to make a big deal out of when Gods word does not even address these things.

    I have just had to look at things in the context of:

    What does God really say.
    Is this really that important? Will anyone go to hell, or will there be blood? (one always asks this if one has children)
    How much time and engery will I be wasting if I bother with this?

    I can usually toss out about 90% and concentrate on the 10% that is important.

    One of the best Bible studies I had was in Iceland.

    Cynthia Gee has a good point… why do these men not want their children to sit under another’s Bible teaching. What is so dangerous? Did Joseph not send Jesus to the Temple to be taught?

    Yeah just like all the other little Jewish boys at that time and still to this very day…….(snark 😉 )

  36. CynthiaGee Says:

    Well, think about it…

    These guys tell the fathers and mothers what to think, and the fathers and mothers teach their children, who teach THEIR children, etc etc…

    If you want to mold the religious ideology of an entire group of people, you don’t make them illiterate. You teach them how to read, you control WHAT they read, and most importantly, you control HOW they interpret that reading material, to the point where it never occurs to them to view it in any other way. You indoctrinate them, to the point where it never occurs to them to think critically.

    Now, all parents DO teach their children, even those who don’t homeschool: every child who sits in a classroom brings his family’s worldviews into the classroom with them. The mix of these family viewpoints in a classroom setting tends to stimulate discussion, thought, and creativity, even when the viewpoints themselves are very similar. It is the slight spark of difference, the occasional unique nuance, that opens the children up to the concept that there may be more than one way to do a thing, or see a situation, or read a book. They learn to say, “What if?”

    Now, if you are trying to shape an ideology, and get a whole bunch of people “on the same page” to the point where they hold YOUR position without questioning it, the last thing you want is for groups of people to sit around, discuss things, and say, “What if ?”

  37. Morgan Farmer Says:

    With all of the ‘discipline’ items being discussed here, let me tell you about MY daughter (youngest, who had lots of teenage issues. got married at 16, now has been married 14 years).

    That child Never believed that spanking was right. Her opinion was that children need to learn that violence does nto solved problems. The children from about 8 months of age got time out. They had to sit in the chair (she would sit on the floor wiht them) the number of seconds that corresponded to their age, until the age of one…then it became a minute. So at 2 my granddaughter would have 2 minutes of time out. We have some hilarious stories of those crocodile tears and all of the boo hooing and baby girl drama…)

    One day my daughter spanked her oldest son and nephew when they took off and did not check in and my grandson told her that she would not spank him. Well she did and called me hysterical and screaming that had spanked her child.

    I asked her if there was blood. None
    Are there bruises? None
    Was he suprprised? yes

    Has he ever pulled a stunt like that again? No

    My granddaughter is 13 and has never been spanked.

    Her children are the best behaved, polite children one will ever see. But she disciplines with groundings, making them clean house, do yardwork, laundry. She even took away all my grandsons books, videos, music and games because he brought home bad grades. Then she made him earn the money to buy the stuff back. Yes she did.

    One year he missed out on soccer because he acted up at school and she had to leave work…he also had to earn money to pay her back for the lost hours at work.

    Funny thing though with all of this the children are polite, responsible and actually fun to be around…definately NOT your typical teenagers. I keep telling her that she needs to go on Dr. Phil.

    I am very proud of the way she has disciplined and raised her children.

  38. CynthiaGee Says:

    “I am very proud of the way she has disciplined and raised her children.”

    As well you should be!

  39. CynthiaGee Says:

    “Now, if you are trying to shape an ideology, and get a whole bunch of people “on the same page” to the point where they hold YOUR position without questioning it, the last thing you want is for groups of people to sit around, discuss things, and say, “What if ?”

    And, if you are trying to subvert the Body of Christ, what better way than to cause divisions, and what more natural dividing line is there than that of FAMILY? Divide the Church into SMALL bites, family-based homechurches that are easy to control and have little unity with one another, and you’ve WON, dear Wormwood…

  40. William Says:

    “But she disciplines with groundings, making them clean house, do yardwork, laundry.” But that is not what Scripture teaches. Anecdotal examples are worthless.

  41. Lynn Says:

    William, Scripture teaches that parents are to bring their children up in the nurture and admonition of the Lord. That command is general enough to allow great latitude for mom and dad to tailor training, discipline, and consequences so that they are appropriate for each child.

    Proverbs teaches that corporal punishment is a permissable means of chastening, but when Scripture speaks of the rod, it is by no means saying, number one, a parent MUST use the rod or else discipline is “not biblical,” and number two, it is not saying all other means of discipline and consequences are unbiblical.

    There is a WHOLE lot more to bringing up a child and training that child, and teaching that child about consequences, than to suggest that spanking is the answer for everything, which is what I inferred from your comment.

    Morgan’s description sounded as though her children were being taught many principles — such as leisure activities and toys take second place to responsibilities, and if responsibilities are not met, then the toys and leisure activites (sports, etc.) are withdrawn until the responsibilities are being carried out. That if by your bad behavior you make a parent leave work, you WLL work to make up my lost income.

    This is great preparation for teaching children the principle that “if a man will not work, neither shall he eat” and other injunctions against slothfulness, greed, irresponsibility.

    I take great issue with those who say the Bible is anti-spanking, because in no way do I believe the Scriptures teach this concept, but neither do the Scriptures mandate that all children be spanked, nor do Scriptures teach other methods of discipline aren’t “biblical,” except, of course, for raging abuse (which provokes children to wrath) which can include violence, which includes VIOLENT INJURIOUS BEATINGS GIVEN IN ANGER.

    There is a LOT more to child training than corporal punishment, and to me it sounds as though these children were “trained in the way they should go,” and what Morgan described sounds biblical to me.

  42. CynthiaGee Says:

    “But that is not what Scripture teaches. Anecdotal examples are worthless.”

    The scriptures don’t tell us to flush the toilet after defecating either, (Deu 23:13 And thou shalt have a paddle upon thy weapon; and it shall be, when thou wilt ease thyself abroad, thou shalt dig therewith, and shalt turn back and cover that which cometh from thee ) but that doesn’t mean that toilet-flushing is wrong. “Argumentum a silentio” is worthless.

  43. Corrie Says:

    ““But that is not what Scripture teaches. Anecdotal examples are worthless.”

    The scriptures don’t tell us to flush the toilet after defecating either, (Deu 23:13 And thou shalt have a paddle upon thy weapon; and it shall be, when thou wilt ease thyself abroad, thou shalt dig therewith, and shalt turn back and cover that which cometh from thee ) but that doesn’t mean that toilet-flushing is wrong. “Argumentum a silentio” is worthless.”

    Cynthia,

    Wow! The things one can learn from scripture if only they will dig. 😉 Good point.

    Lynn,

    I agree with what you have stated concerning spanking.

    I don’t understand why consequences are not considered a biblical form of discipline? When was the last time someone was spanked for cheating on their taxes or paddled for lying or beaten for lying to their elders? Obviously when the Bible says that the rod is for the backside of the fool is was NOT putting an age limit on the fool! Why aren’t we spanking adults for their rebelliousness and foolishness?

    The Bible never says that one must spank a child in order for the discipline to be biblical.

    And until I see the foolish adults in our churches and society being spanked with the rod, then I cannot take seriously anyone who insists that a child must be spanked in order for that parent to be a proper biblical disciplinarian.

    Morgan, thank you for that testimonial concerning your daughter. That was very encouraging. There is nothing wrong with a time-out. I am one that thinks a person should reserve spanking for very rare times such as the dangerous disobedience you told about in your example.

  44. Morgan Farmer Says:

    “But she disciplines with groundings, making them clean house, do yardwork, laundry.” But that is not what Scripture teaches. Anecdotal examples are worthless.

    William…who ever you are….these are NOT anectodal examples…this is real life..this is how my daughter disciplines her children. Whether or not you disagree it sounds to me like you are disappointed that she has not beaten the C**&% out of them to make them mind. I don’t care what scripture teaches about beating your children I know Jesus would approve of her methods and the results. After all its the results we look at or am I being presumptious in hoping that you would hope for responsible adults later on in life instead of messed up kids on drugs because they were abused????? Abused according to scripture of course….

    She has been CONSISTENT with them since they were babies…and has never wavered…her yes is yes…her no is no and they understand and respect that. Above all consistent and fair discipline is important in the life of a child…

    Oh and something else you will no doubt disagree with…they have no computers or TV’s in their rooms, these are in the den/family area. The children are not not allowed to have my space pages and are not allowed in chat rooms. Mom even monitors their emails…..

    BUT ..my grandson lettered in track, the grandaughter is an accomplished gymnast and cheerleader and they are both leaders at their GASP…public school!!!!!

    Oh and they do attend church on a regular basis….their request for Christmas this year are new ESV Bibles…..

    I am going to stop now I can feel myself becoming extremely uncharitable and ready to pounce…I really do not want to post what I am thinking about YOU right now William.

    Believe it or not parents can raise fabulous children without the help of Phillips and Gothard.

    finis

  45. Morgan Farmer Says:

    Thanks to Lynn and Corrie for being so…what is it? SENSIBLE? BTW whatever happened to common sense?

    One thing I can say for my daughter…those kids have learned some valuable life lessons and we as well have some stories to tell..of course the children never hear us as we howl and laugh about some of the situations. I was rolling on the floor when my daughter was telling me about how her son was managing to earn money to pay her back the lost wages….if those children know one thing…..its taking responsibility for ones actions…..and that every bad decision has a consequence…..

    I love you gals…thanks for the support!

  46. Cindy Kunsman Says:

    Morgan Farmer Wrote: “Thanks to Lynn and Corrie for being so…what is it? SENSIBLE? BTW whatever happened to common sense?”

    Each child is unique also, and the more unique they are, the more one needs to rely on disciplinary creativity and common sense. Some arrows in the quiver respond best to a swat on the backside. For others, that same swat under similar circumstances will yield quite different and undesirable behavior. (Some make for good humor, and others for those days you wish never existed…)

    I found Cynthia Tobias to be quite enlightening on this subject of discipline and differences among the temperments and learning styles. (I love her “You Can’t Make Me, But I Can Be Persuaded” book!)

    I suppose these many teachers hope to save us from ourselves and the freedom that they fear we cannot handle.

  47. Jen Says:

    Cindy, thanks for the links to those two articles about Doug. I was quite surprised at Don Veinot’s approach to Doug’s teachings today. Here we are talking about how people who are taught to think critically will start asking the “what if” questions, and won’t be afraid to explore those possibilities. Don asks a very eye-opening “what if” in his article today. Here’s the link again.

  48. Cindy Kunsman Says:

    Many of the comments posted after the blog piece are really insightful also. (I ordered three books mentioned in the first response!) The blog builds upon the MCOI Cult Watch article, and the replies to the blog do also.

    I just pray that Doug will be moved to change. In the email from MCOI this morning (linking to the new blog post), there were additional mentions of the ongoing problems with Gothard. If I recall the past accounts correctly, Gothard did actually meet on one occasion to discuss his problematic teachings. The points that Gothard did agree to review were never pursued, despite his agreeement to “submit” to his fellow believers.

    As this evidence of Doug’s problems accumulates, I pray that things will be much different. Different from Gothard’s response… Doug is in such a good position to repent right now. People are just aching to forgive him and see him work with instead of against his fellow believers.

    Over the holiday, I read an old article about how some pastors confronted a group of out-of-control Charismatic ministers many years ago. In addressing the problems inherent to declaring those “Incredibly Dangerous” problems within Christianity, the author mentioned Paul’s problems with Peter as they worked out the issues with the Judiazers. It really encouraged me that there is indeed a great deal of hope and promise in this situation.

    Passionate people engage in passionate disputes. But we have examples in Scripture of passionate Apostles who resolved their conflicts so that the Word would not be blasphemed. God will not be mocked, but we need not give Him so much cause for intervention. We must continue to pray for mercy and God’s mighty intervention. All God must do is change Doug’s heart, a very easy thing for Him. I wonder when the appointed time will come?

  49. Corrie Says:

    Morgan,

    “Oh and they do attend church on a regular basis….their request for Christmas this year are new ESV Bibles…..”

    What heathens you have for grandchildren!!!!

    They are not supposed to be asking for bibles! They go to public school. They should be asking for Snoop Dog cds, thong underwear and condoms!

    I think you would be very encouraged by Clay and Sally Clarkson’s book, Heartfelt Discipline.

    They are Christians and they are homeschoolers and they go through the verses that allegedly tell us to beat our children. I love their ministry and vision for families! None of the extreme crapola you have to wade through in so many other materials.

    It is a very good book and no matter where you fall down in the spanking debate, you will at least come away with another viewpoint and a possibility that we are wrong in how we look at those verses.

    They do not condemn spanking, either.

    http://www.amazon.com/Heartfelt-Discipline-Gentle-Training-Guiding/dp/1578565839

  50. Cindy Kunsman Says:

    I just chuckled again as I scrolled past Morgan Farmer’s last few posts. Some things about teaching kiddos just make good sense, and many of them make for good laughs!

    Good and sweet encouragement.

  51. Happymom4 Says:

    RE: Biblical Discipline . . . . did you know that GOD believes in time out?? Seriously. He gave old Jonah a GREAT BIG FAT TIME OUT in the belly of the whale!!

    My children are always moved to silence after I point that out when they begin complaining about THEIR time out!

  52. Lin Says:

    http://strivetoenter.com/wim/

    Not on topic but about DP and his teaching

  53. Debbie from CA Says:

    Morgan, love the stories!

    William, you scare me.

  54. Lin Says:

    Hey Morgan, What about this one…

    You have to use ‘shock and awe’ when there are repeated problems.

    After a specific repeated ‘crime’… loading up a big bag of toys and stuffed animals and driving them with said child to the Goodwill while she watched them go into the big donation container. Gone forever.

    Nothing like ‘visual impact’

    There is no messing with mommy anymore. She knows I mean business. All I have to say is: Goodwill.

  55. Morgan Farmer Says:

    Lin yo go girl!!!! OH YES…… My daughter made her daughter WATCH while she (mom) cleaned her room and bagged it all for Goodwill too. What a hoot!!! (The blow by blow from my daughter was stuff that Robin Williams could not even make up!)

    I could keep you girls entertained for hours with ‘kid disciplining stories’…and I have no doubt that these children and others that are disciplined in this way will draw on their experiences to discipline their children. Its comforting to know that the next generation will be safe and not abused.

    Love is love….business is business!!!!

  56. CynthiaGee Says:

    About the Duggars and Gothard, the Moonie site says this:

    “The Duggars are politically conservative fundamentalist Christians who endorse Quiverfull and and the
    teachings of Bill Gothard. The children are home schooled with IBLP “Advanced Training Institute
    International” and Maxwell family “Managers of Their Homes” curricula. The family reportedly lives debtfree.
    In 2006, the Duggars finished a 7000-square-foot steel-framed home, built on 20 acres, which features
    four commercial washers and dryers as well as a complete commercial kitchen purchased by the Duggars at
    auction. Several sponsors donated appliances for the new home, and one donated a baby grand piano.”

  57. Corrie Says:

    I thought this was a good quote.

    “There is no way of proving your point to someone whose income or position depends on believing the contrary. ~Sidney Harris, “Pieces of Eight””

  58. Corrie Says:

    So, the Moonie site even mentions the Duggars and Gothard??? Too weird!! I have read a lot on that site and it really is uncanny how similar they are in their thinking to a lot of the things I have heard taught at homeschool conventions and Christian seminars.

    I think Michelle Duggar is getting ready to deliver her 17th child. I know TLC did a lot of the work in their new home and decorated it to the hilt. They have two large kitchens, one is a commercial kitchen. And like the Moonies said, many of their appliances and furnishings were donated to them. The baby grand piano wasn’t the only thing.

    We just had to buy a new washer/dryer (frontloaders). Ouch!! And we only have one set for a family of 12. I can’t imagine having 4 sets!

    Most people in the QF movement are not going to get the perks of going commercial with giving birth to many children. There are many families following the QF movement who have hardly any money at all and are living in very cramped quarters and even some on welfare.

    • Esbee Says:

      The last statement you made is so true…that most QF are not going to get the perks the Duggars enjoy. They will watch the show thinking all things will go smoothly for having that many kids, but reality is never ending mounds of dirty diapers and baby burp and not enough money to pay for all the formula. These QF families think if they blindly follow QF by having all those children, that He would supply all their needs.

      How about this for a novel idea….if each christian family were to follow God’s plan for their life and not be taken in by legalist ideas. Birth control is not a sin. Having 1 or 2 kids is not a sin. College educated women working outside the home is not a sin. Wearing pants is not a sin. Not thinking for yourself and using the brains God gave you is a sin. Blindly following what other people say is God’s will for you is a sin. Having baby after baby when you are worn out and can not afford another one is not smart.

  59. TheIronHare Says:

    I just want to quickly take a moment to praise God for all the valuable and edifying discussion that has come out in the midst of what in and of itself is a very ugly situation created by Doug Phillips and others of his stripe. For instance, if I ever become a parent I’m sure my kids will benefit from me having read various comments at this blog.

    Dennis

  60. Morgan Farmer Says:

    Corrie, I think Michelle Duggar did deliver #17. What I want to ask is “where is the concern for the health of the mother in all of this?”

    I really am concerned that her children will be motherless if she continues to have children. Her poor body……has it ever been normal or at rest since she married?

    My youngest had three….. boom boom boom in four years….
    so I have seen some of he effects of having back to back children on a mother. Even in large families (and I know a lot…most with 5 or more…) there comes a time when the parents say we have our family.

    I hope she is getting the emotional support and hormonal support she must desperately need…..

    The perks though do kind of make you take notice……like you said commerical perks are NOT the norm in QF families..and they struggle to make ends meet.

    Ahhh the benefits of being a ‘commerical oddity’.

  61. Morgan Farmer Says:

    Oh and Dennis…..the trick is to NOT let your children see you laughing….you have to go to the garage. 🙂

    Best, Morgan

  62. Micah Gelatt Says:

    I know this is off-topic a bit, but someone mentioned it earlier. I have been gone for several days, and could not reply.

    Topic: Spanking.

    Spanking is mentioned in Scripture, and is a topic that causes great consternation. I think the emphasis needs to be on the end result, and not merely the process of discipline. Following the Biblical principle, discipline should never by simply punitive, but rather a process of restoring the child to the parent. The word discipline comes from the same root word for disciple, and both mean “to learn.” So, through properly administered discipline (which includes spanking) we are teaching our children to imitatio Christi, to imitate our perfect model for behavior – Christ.
    Yet, I think spanking plays a vital role in Biblical discipline, when administered correctly and for the right offenses (direct rebellion, for example).

    (This next sentence said in a joking tone) However, we could use the instance of God’s Law in Deuteronomy 21 where parents were COMMANDED to bring their rebellious, disobedient children in front of the elders, state their offenses before all, and then stone them to death. Boy, would that arouses some phone calls from SRS. I wonder if Vision Forum will be putting out any resources along those lines.
    A “Do-It-Yourself-Stoning-Kit”?
    A line of t-shirts with the words from the Bob Dylan song on the front: “Everybody Must Get Stoned”?
    🙂

  63. CynthiaGee Says:

    Morgan said, “Even in large families (and I know a lot…most with 5 or more…) there comes a time when the parents say we have our family. ”

    Yup… the bibile verse that most often gets quoted by big family afficionados is “Psa 127:4 As arrows [are] in the hand of a mighty man; so [are] children of the youth. Happy [is] the man that hath his quiver full of them: they shall not be ashamed, but they shall speak with the enemies in the gate. ”

    But, every quiver has finite limits. You can only stuff so many arrows into a quiver before you end up damaging the arrows, lor bursting the quiver, or both.

  64. thatmom Says:

    Micah said:”So, through properly administered discipline (which includes spanking) we are teaching our children to imitatio Christi, to imitate our perfect model for behavior – Christ.
    Yet, I think spanking plays a vital role in Biblical discipline, when administered correctly and for the right offenses (direct rebellion, for example). ”

    Srry, Micah, but the question I asked was this one….where is spanking commanded in Scripture?

  65. Morgan Farmer Says:

    Srry, Micah, but the question I asked was this one….where is spanking commanded in Scripture?

    Spanking is not commanded in scripture it is inferred “spare the rod , spoil the child’….(by human beings)

    I for one am not in the habit of making inferrences into doctrinal fact or practice but thats just me……

    Children must be disciplined but I remember when I was younger an older neighbor (female) had a house church. She regularly beat her young son to get the devil out of him. When he grew up he terrorized the neighborhood businesses…one day a store owner having had enough, shot him when he walked through the door of the store.

    Yeah lets all beat our children.

  66. Corrie Says:

    “Morgan said, “Even in large families (and I know a lot…most with 5 or more…) there comes a time when the parents say we have our family. ”

    Yup… the bibile verse that most often gets quoted by big family afficionados is “Psa 127:4 As arrows [are] in the hand of a mighty man; so [are] children of the youth. Happy [is] the man that hath his quiver full of them: they shall not be ashamed, but they shall speak with the enemies in the gate. ”

    But, every quiver has finite limits. You can only stuff so many arrows into a quiver before you end up damaging the arrows, lor bursting the quiver, or both.”

    Right! This is exactly what I was thinking over the last week.

    A quiver must be manageable to the warrior or it will encumber him and load him down. I mean, what warrior is going to be running around with a HUGE quiver in order to accomodate tons of arrows? The quiver, itself, must be manageable.

    The arrows are sensitive. If there are too many of them all jammed together the fletchings will become messed up and the arrows will not fly straight.

    I loved archery growing up and my son is a big bow hunter.

    The whole “quiver-full” analogy breaks down after a while.

    I think it all boils down to attitude.

    Right now I am seriously thinking that 10 is enough for me. I know some people are shocked by that. Believe me it would not be because of selfishness on my part if I made the decision that 10 is completion for me. These decisions are not as simple as accusing those who decide to not have any more children as selfish, materialistic and feminists who have bought into the selfish, materialistic mindset of feminism.

    Well, I have to go. My little girls, Caroline and Emma, just informed me that Levi, their 1 yr old brother, took off his “poopy” diaper and is now running around the house. 🙂 I can only imagine…….

  67. Micah Gelatt Says:

    oh, bother……..

  68. Micah Gelatt Says:

    Well, I am off to Biblically spank my children, according to God’s Biblical instruction…I will do so Biblically though, with my belt of truth (again, Biblical) 🙂

  69. Robert Says:

    Pastor Scott has posted a follow up to his original post. See it at his website. It seems to be a further clarification to his first post. It is interesting.

  70. tHEiRONhARE Says:

    Can you tell I accidentally had Caps Lock on when I was filling out the “Name” box?

    “Oh and Dennis…..the trick is to NOT let your children see you laughing….you have to go to the garage.

    Best, Morgan”

    Yeah, Morgan, don’t wanna the lil’ darlins to think the wrong thing. “This hurts me more than it hurts you.” “Yeah, right Dad.”

    Dennis

  71. Morgan Farmer Says:

    Yeah, Morgan, don’t wanna the lil’ darlins to think the wrong thing. “This hurts me more than it hurts you.” “Yeah, right Dad.”

    I am going to ignore your obvious nastiness and your assumption that I am in favor of beating children…or laughing about it…..but sometimes a childs reaction to discipline is the stuff made of true comedy…..

    You must have misunderstood the context of the comment.

    An example would be when my daughter called me howling with laughter (she was in the garage)….her 3 year old niece had just walked through the door after she had gotten a swat on the backside. When asked why she got swatted her reply was :”I was acting like a fool.”

    Gee I am sorry of you don’t think that is just too funny…but seems to me those really reformed folk do not have much of a sense of humor

    Of course then if you have not ever seen the look on a childs face when they have just lost all of their stuffed toys to Goodwill because they did not pick them up when Mom said to……you have missed something so rare…..

  72. Jen Says:

    To read both of Pastor Scott’s articles on this issue, go here.

  73. Morgan Farmer Says:

    Point #2 Strong families do not create strong churches; it is strong churches which create strong families.

    Someone who gets it……

  74. Jen Says:

    Pastor Scott: “Jesus Christ died for the church, not the family.”

    Acts 20:28 – Therefore take heed to yourselves and to all the flock, among which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers, to shepherd the church of God which He purchased with His own blood.

    Interesting verse to consider. I’ve been thinking about the church we see in the NT. How many examples do we have of families working together? Priscilla and Aquila, kind of. Ananias and Sapphira? Or how many examples do we have of individuals working together as a part of the church? Numerous. I am not at all trying to promote individualism, but if we want to have a NT church, as we so often claim, it is interesting to see what examples we are given.

    Pastor Scott gives us many compelling arguments to at least consider. I think that churches need families (as well as individuals) and families (and individuals) need churches. It may be that we are arguing this from two extreme ends, while the truth lies somewhere in the middle, as usual. Families and churches need each other.

  75. RefCal Says:

    Jen,
    Don Venoit has been decieved about Junia/Junias:

    I hate to have to say this, but the experts are blatantly wrong about Junias. A later scribe did nothing to CHANGE the gender of Junia; only to SPECIFY what had been ambiguous. And WHAT was specified will surprise you!

    Whether Junias was originally masculine or feminine is open to debate, since the earliest form of the name is ambiguous as to gender. And, as it turns out, this debate dates back to the earliest recorded writings of the church.

    Junia was probably feminine:
    “One of the earliest commentators on the passage, John Chrysostom, took the name as feminine: ‘how great the wisdom of this woman must have been that she was even deemed worthy of the title of apostle’.”

    Junia was probably masculine:
    “In the first place, in the Greek text the name is Junian (in the accusative case—the gender of the name is not evident); it either could be Junia (feminine), or more likely, Junias (masculine). Origin, a writer of the third century A.D., considered it a reference to a man (Lightfoot, p. 96).”

    That Junias was only in later times written in an unambiguously masculine form is a given. But how much later? After all the scribes had long since hung up their pens, apparently.

    “The first credible reference to Junia as male comes from Aegidius of Rome (ca. 1243-1316) in the late Middle Ages, though without explanation. Two centuries later, in 1512, Jacques LeFevre also considered her a man, even though in the Latin translation available to him the name was clearly feminine (37). Ten years later Martin Luther’s influential German New Testament appeared. Following LeFevre, he designated Junia a male. In Luther’s Works, we find the following: “Greet Andronicus, the manly one, and Junias, of the Junian family, who are men of note among the apostles” (38). Yet this sex-change operation occurred without a shred of evidence or even an attempt at persuasion. Junia became Junias simply because a woman could not possibly be an apostle!

    Nevertheless, beginning with Erasmus in 1516, all [printed copies of the] Greek New Testament . . . except one consider Junia female. This continues until 1927 when the thirteenth Nestle edition (the first had come out in 1898) inexplicably changed the accent from acute (feminine) to circumflex (masculine). (The two major Greek versions of the New Testament are the Nestle, which in 1956 became Nestle-Aland; and the standard text of the United Bible Society [UBS]). It is true, however, that the 14th through the 25th editions of the Nestle or Nestle-Aland editions included a footnote with the alternate feminine reading. The UBS, first published in 1966, omitted even the alternate reading until 1975. The 27th Nestle-Aland edition and the fourth UBS edition both came out in 1993, years after inclusive language had become a public issue, and inexplicably still retained the masculine Junias. Then, without explanation, in 1998 the fifth revised printing of the 27th Nestle-Aland edition, and the third printing of the fourth UBS edition both changed Junia’s sex back to female!”

    What the medieval scribes had done was make Junia explicitly FEMALE; only in printed editions of the Greek was Junias first made explicity MALE. And it was the EXPERTS who first made Junias explicity male in the Greek text–the very sort of experts who now want to pin the deed on an unscrupulous scribe!


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