From Doug’s Blog today:
Critic to Mrs. Howard Phillips: “You’re having another baby. Don’t you know that the world has too many children already?”
Mrs. Howard Phillips: “The world is in need of my children.”
That sums it up. Thank God for mothers who see the potential for changing the world which lies in the lives of the children God gives them.
Christian mothers and fathers, listen to Peggy Phillips—the world needs your children!
Read the article and then notice why Doug thinks women are important, and who he is really complimenting. What humility.
Jen's Gems -- Doug Phillips' Ecclesiastical Tyranny and Abuse 
August 28, 2007 at 4:17 pm
Nikki –
I don’t have a clue about little bear’s church. On the other hand do I know about Faith and what you wrote is at the very least highly misleading. First off faith itself hasn’t published anything. BCA has made claims about FPC. And according to BCA’s materials FPC most certainly did not stand by Doug’s statement. What they said was that they lacked authority to act in an appellate capacity. They themselves have never said one way or another anything about Jen.
Moreover their analysis violated the doctrines of the PCA as I documented on my blog. I think you have been throwing around accusations a little lightly since you’ve gotten here. Slow down. Think through what you are saying and be prepared to present evidence.
Let me present another example which was an even worse case (that I let pass):
“These un-college bound girls often are also well studied in doctorate level work.”
Really. What research papers have they published? What conferences have they presented at? What journals are their materials in? Doctorate level is a pretty high level. Its about new research which substantially advances the understanding in the field.
In mathematics I know of one person in the last century who did doctorate level work without a formal educational environment and to get there he required being quite possibly the greatest genius in India at the time and some private tutoring by one of the world’s top 10 mathematicians.
August 28, 2007 at 4:29 pm
Nikki this is where critical reading is essential.
You said, “There is a notice from BCA the PCA church elders ”
Do the elders of Faith PCA say that Doug Phillips is right and Jen’s allegations are wrong? No they don’t. They merely state that they will not usurp the disciplinary action of BCA by rendering their own opinion on the matter. Thus, we don’t know what they believe about the excommunication just that they have no jurisdiction in this matter.
Further, the letter is not documented in its entirety. Why not? Certain paragraphs are truncated as indicated by the use of [ brackets ] that tells me there were portions of the lettter deleted which could alter the original intent of the authors. And portions which may have been unfavorable to BCA could possibly have been omitted. Without disclosing the original document we cannot know if this was done. To be above reproach, BCA should disclose the complete documents in their entirety without commentary by an anonymous author of this website. Until that is done, the word of this elders as we know it is only that they have no jurisidiction in this matter and nothing more.
As far as Little Bear Wheelers statement discusses the Epsteins use of an email campaign to discredit Doug Phillips, but does not speak to the excommunication itself, “We were grieved that such an e-mail would be sent, and deeply saddened to find that the e-mail contained inaccuracies and misleading information. We believe the letter discredits its authors.”
This letter also does nothing to support or refute the original excommunication of the Epsteins, only that their actions after excommunciation are not acceptable. They tell us that that the Epsteins have spread “misleading information” but don’t document how that is true. They expect us to believe them based on what? Just as I don’t believe Jen simply on the basis of what she writes, the same is true of those who support Doug Phillips. Does Living Waters support the excommication, we don’t know and this document does not tell us. We cannot make inferences based on the information put forth on that website.
Further, we have not even spoken about the unsubstantiated rumor by “Supreme Court justice” that is hosted on the Vision Forum webpage alleging illegalities on the part of a former friend of Doug Phillips, Dave Linton. Are we to just excuse those allegations because they came from an unnamed supreme court justice and former personal friend of Vision Forum. It is highly inappropriate for Vision Forum to use its website to make an allegation against a Christian brother, without documenting the facts. This is not done and is not above reproach. So there are webpages that are not being discussed by those that support Doug Phillips that we all should concern anyone who has thought Doug Phillips as their friend. If he would turn on David Linton and malign him in public, who else would he do the same thing to as well?
Nikki, it is not my desire to know the sordid details of this issue, or get a personal correspondence from Doug Phillips. To take the discussion to that extreme is not helpful to anyone who is seeking the truth about a man we admire and support. If Doug Phillips, the BCA website or Vision Forum had said nothing about the Epsteins that would be better than the undocumented assertions and allegations against a brother in Christ. The men of Vision Forum have participated in the same “internet assassinations” they have accused the Epsteins of participating in. If you don’t give Jen Epstein a pass, then why should the patriarchs of Vision Forum who are the teachers on the subject get a pass? They have devoted just as much space and time as the Epsteins, but have done so anonymously. Atleast Jen Esptein has the courage to put her name to her website, something that cannot be said about the “anonymous supreme court justice,” “Still Fed Up,” or the elders of BCA.
August 28, 2007 at 4:57 pm
Nikki said,
“So that’s a good reason to go to college? We want to test their faith… not sure about your strategy, if it doesn’t make us lose our fatih it makes us stronger? If we only fall into temptation a little bit, we’ll be forgiven anyway…… I don’t think theres any clause about making sure you move far away from your relatives and living with people who have opposing worldviews ( you can meet them next door and at the grocery store) to get “educated”.
Nikki, I don’t know what YOU did in college, but I went there to get an education, not to “move far away from my relatives and live with people who have opposing worldviews.”
I went to a college in my own hometown. One needn’t move far away from their parents and relatives to go to school — you keep sounding as if college has to mean moving halfway across the country, but unless you live in the back-40 of nowhere, it’s just not an either/or situation. Maybe the thing that bothers you most is the idea of your children growing up and going out on their own, rather than their attending college.
As for being around ungodly people with opposing worlviews, yes, my school had some wild kids, and it also had its fair share of nice, decent students. I hung out with the decent kids — philosophy, theatre arts, and english majors mostly — when I hung out with anyone at all. Most of the time, I spent my evenings reading in my (private) room in an all-girls dorm, or rehearsing some play or another in the school theatre, or doing research in the library. I wasn’t in the least tempted to hang out with the wrong crowd — why should I have been, since I had nothing in common with them? The wild kids weren’t a temptation, they were a NUISANCE!
When a young person is old enough to go to college, they are an adult — your work is done. If you have raised your kids right, they will want to hang out with a decent crowd, not with school hooligans with opposing worldviews.
To attempt to continue to shelter and control your offspring after they have reached adulthood, and thereby deprive them of an education, is to admit that you trust neither them nor the Faith which you have taught them.
August 28, 2007 at 5:18 pm
Nikki wrote,
“Also, there is a difference between sending a girl and a boy away. No, not everyone will be exposed to harmful situations, but I ought not put my DAUGHTER in a position where she could be overpowered by shady characters…. Check the facts… there aren’t alot of guys (although is possible) who are victims of date rape… and we can’t blame it all on a girl’s revealing blouse.”
I can’t believe I’m reading this…. why would your daughter be alone with a shady character in the first place, at college OR at home? Moreover, boys are not immune typically they are not the victims of date rape, but they are the victims of seduction, by shady ladies.
And if she IS going to be alone with a shady character, the thing you fear can can happen anywhere. When I was in my 20’s I had to practically beat off an attacker in a Christian bookstore – he was my employer and he was a Pentecostal preacher! But I never had an experience like that in college.
My advice — teach your daughters sound Christianity, teach them good sense and discernment — they should be as wise as serpents,and as harmless as doves — and then let them grow up and let them go. And, if you are STILL worried, teach them karate.
August 28, 2007 at 5:29 pm
“About your other comments concerning abused and tortured brothers and sisters of the past, they already know God’s glory, what is it you want me to explain? ”
Well, for starters, why you continue to support a man who glorifies the abusers and torturers!
Let me repeat this again, in boldface:
Phillips has garnered money and support by cozying up to the NeoConfederate movement, and he supports his father, whose party has thrown in with anti-Semites, holocaust deniers, the apartheid movement, and the militia movement. VisionForum’s homeschooling materials rewrite the facts of history to support the political positions of those hate groups which are being courted by the Constitution Party.
I know this as a result of my own research, from reading Doug’s Blog, from reading his writings, and from observing who his and his father’s associates , fans, and supporters are, NOT from listening to rumors and allegations made by “people who hate Family Integration and Biblical Patriarchy”.
If you want, I can provide you with the links, and you can read it for yourself.
August 28, 2007 at 6:09 pm
CynthiaGee,
My daughter wouldn’t be alone with a shady character, that’s the whole point. I wouldn’t send her away… kudos for you never being taken advantage of at college. I wasn’t either.
However, I freely got deeply involved with a young christian man… most people wouldn’t call what we did sin… but are times together certainly weren’t about holiness. It was heartwrenching and I of course am a ludricrous parent who doesn’t think my children are required to learn everything from there own mistakes even though that is the instructions that ring out all around us.
And as has been posted you can commute or use distance education and there are obviously creeps at the Christian bookstore so why would you want to sendyour daughter to live in a dorm or apartment away from her family… what specifically about that is valuable.
Oh, I forgot because the world is a generally good and happy place so go out in it….remember your own home isn’t so great because there are creeps in your own neighborhood… well guess what, I can see those creeps. They are right where I can keep an eye on them.
By the way, Christianity is a hate group, haven’t you heard? It is hateful to say homosexuality is sin and it is hateful to support the principals of the founders of the constitution. And oh, I forgot one more thing… apparently if we don’t support statism and believe that states rights are constitutional, then we suddenly support slavery because the confederacy didn’t want the federal government to dictate state laws (despite their constitutional right)… oh, so now I just said slavery was good right? NO, actually I said the founders of the constitution were wise in giving states rights and it was the states job, not the federal government’s to abolish slavery. Some people say that the apostle Paul supported slavery because he told slaves to obey their masters instead of organizing a rebellion. But that isn’t so either, he was actually giving all people godly advice on how to live in a society that was far less than reformed. As ours still is.
That knowledge was gained by reading things other than government approved textbooks and college classes, that’s why it sounds so debase, it’s not socially and politically correct.
Well, you read my writings and make false assumptions and assert that I should be ashamed of speaking highly of my own daughter… you have not proven trustworthy as far as I understand.
August 28, 2007 at 6:41 pm
Nikki, you are welcome to comment on my blog, but you have a very sharp tongue. One of the “rules” of this blog is that you conduct yourself as a Christian would. I have to say that there are non-Christians here who treat the rest of us with a great deal more kindness than we have received from you. Please examine your writings a little more carefully before you post what sounds to me to be very bitter words. One thing I have greatly enjoyed about most of the commenters here is that even when we disagree, we are polite and kind to one another. There have been a few heated moments here and there, but your overall tone is of great concern to me. Please reconsider how you approach us.
Nikki: “Let’s be practical, an internet blog although it may be thought provoking and even encouraging is not true fellowship.
“The comfort offered here is of little use compared to real faces, arms and voices. We have no right to remove Doug Phillips, the people who do, did not. We have no ability to hug the Epstein family, they need that more than an internet blog.”
So what would you suggest I do, Nikki? Right now, I am extremely grateful that God has provided internet friends. Do I “fellowship” with my internet friends? I think so. I think that God can use many different venues for fellowship and the internet happens to be one of them. It sounds to me like you only live about three hours away from me. If you ever want to come give me a hug in real life, I would really like that!
Nikki: “it appears that the local church excommunicated the Epsteins so apparently the pastor’s error wasn’t apparent to a reasonable portion of the church if several people went against him with that accusation.”
Nikki, MANY people left BCA before we were excommunicated. The ones who were left were the ones who were loyal no matter what. All those who were fed up with Doug had already left by this point. I was not at all surprised to find that they all sided with Doug. And whether they were loyal or not, where else could they go to church? If they sided with the Epsteins, they would have to leave BCA. I admit that we were spoiled in a way. There were many great things about BCA, which is why we stayed. There were also some very bad things, which only began to appear near the end as Doug became more and more extreme. Nikki, since you go to a family-integrated church now, if you had to leave, where would you go? Would it be easy for you to just pick yourself up and find a new church?
August 28, 2007 at 6:55 pm
Cindy: “Regarding “Vision Casting”:
“Jen, this is paganism. This is absolutely indiscernible from “The Secret” (”metaphysical” film and book) and the cognitive distortion of magical thinking.
“Doug teaches this? I understand you to say that this is a phrase that he uses?”
Cindy, here are just two examples from his website: “Uniting Church and Family: Conferences designed to cast vision…”
“The vision of this national celebration is more fully explained here, but can be summarized as an exercise in vision-casting, hope-communication, apologetic training, and genuine celebration of the works of our great God.”
Cindy: “I’m not sure how he justifies suing Joe Taylor”
Lynn: “but just to clarify it was binding arbitration, and Doug was not one of the parties the first time around.”
Cindy: “It was a legal matter requiring arbitration wherein Doug actually avoided service of legal documents (per Jen’s documentation.) The services of an attorney were employed to deal with matters among Christians.”
Actually, Doug repeatedly threatened to sue Joe Taylor, but he did not. He did set up a mediation, which was really a sham, and was a gross conflict of interest for all those involved except Joe Taylor. Joe was coerced into agreeing to something that he never should have agreed to. Doug’s name was on that mediation agreement, but Doug REFUSED to sign it. Later on, there was an arbitration ruling as well.
The episode that Cindy is talking about involved Joe’s request to Doug Phillips to take this to Peacemakers, since Doug refused to sign the mediation. However, Doug also refused to go to Peacemakers with Joe, just as he refused to go to Peacemakers with us.
Kevin: “Does anyone think the same thing could be done with patriarchy and Vision Forum? Why concede such an old word to a guy like Phillips’ when his definition of it seems very new.”
Great idea, Kevin! What word would you suggest we use instead? We tried using hyper-patriarchy to differentiate it from patriarchy. Others have used patriocentric, which is an appropriate word as well, but most people don’t know what that means.
August 28, 2007 at 7:16 pm
“NO, actually I said the founders of the constitution were wise in giving states rights and It was the states job, not the federal government’s, to abolish slavery’
True, but do finish the statement:
“It was the states job, not the federal government’s, to abolish slavery’ , AND when the states failed to do their job, and indeed seceded from the Union rather than do the right thing, the federal government had to step in and protect thousands of helpless human beings from being enslaved by the rich men who controlled the politics of the states in which they lived.
That dog won’t hunt, Nikkki.
And, in supporting Phillips, you support a man who idolizes
Robert Lewis Dabney, who is distinguished for his racist leanings as much as he is for his theological beliefs. Dabney was considered a racist in his own time by his own peers. Now, please understand that Phillips not only praises Dabney the theologian, he praises Dabney the MAN. This is significant: when someone has that type of notoriety, one may praise his good deeds and ideas without praising him personally; to praise such a man personally is to praise those deeds and viewpoints for which he is best known. In Dabney’s case, those viewpoints would be the virulent expressions of racism which led him to deny that black men were fit for the ministry, and which elsewhere referred to them as “vile stream from the fens of Africa”. Dabney was the worst sort of racist, even in his own racist times.
Phillips also supports his father’s political agenda, and Howard Phillip’s Constitution Party has close ties with the League of the South , another racist organization; in fact, the party’s most recent Presidential cantidate was a LoS member.
In addition, Reconstructionist “Pastor” Steve Wilkins is a founding member of the LoS.
(Wilkins believes that lying is perfectly acceptable, if it advances the Reconstructionist cause. Deacon Kevin Branson posted an article on the web site of Wilkins’ church in which he praises Rahab as “a spiritual hero” because “she deceived the wicked who sought to kill God’s own people.”
Branson said that “some of us don’t have a clue about honorable and necessary deception of the wicked” and that “sometimes God requires that we offer by way of our right hand a sweeping sword, and from our lips deception, that the wicked might fail, and Christ and His Bride might flourish.”)
There’s more…
As stated on the blog site, Racist Churches:
“for many years, Doug Phillips and Vision Forum have sold books by G.A. Henty and hosted an essay contest in his honor. You can see how often Henty is praised there.
One of the books included in the 40-volume set for sale at Vision Forum is “By Sheer Pluck”. Here is Henty’s opinion of black people, which any young child may find in its pages:
They are just like children. They are always either laughing or quarrelling. They are good-natured and passionate, indolent, but will work hard for a time; clever up to a certain point, densely stupid beyond. The intelligence of an average negro is about equal to that of a European child of ten years old. A few, a very few, go beyond this, but these are exceptions, just as Shakespeare was an exception to the ordinary intellect of an Englishman. They are fluent talkers, but their ideas are borrowed. They are absolutely without originality, absolutely without inventive power. Living among white men, their imitative facilities enable them to attain a considerable amount of civilisation. Left alone to their own devices they retrograde into a state little above their native savagery.
White superiority is the theme that runs through all of Henty’s books. He once wrote of “the utter incapacity of the Negro race to evolve, or even maintain, civilisation without the example and the curb of a white population.”
Note: Doug Phillips is selling the original, unexpurgated (racist) versions of these books, not the versions edited by Mantle Ministries and Preston Speed.
It’s astounding that racist books are being sold to impressionable youths under the guise of Christianity, but Henty is just the beginning. For example, Vision Forum also sells Elsie Dinsmore, which contains the “n-word” (and other things). Elsie even tells her slaves that “they wouldn’t be Negroes in heaven.”
…from Racist Churches
And there’s more. Doug courts the neoConfederate movement, in his lecture circuit, sharing the stage with Steve Wilkins and even custom-tailoring his lectures in an attempt to woo these secessionist groups. Apparently Doug has met with some success , too — maybe more than he bargained for, since some of these neoNazi bad boys admire his and his father’s views to the point of wanting to infiltrate the Constitution Party.
Shall I go on?
August 28, 2007 at 7:18 pm
Jen —
If you don’t mind me disagreeing here… I’m not sure trying to save “patriarchy” as a word is a good idea. For roughly 80% of the population “patriarchal” means deliberate systematic oppression of woman. Its an offensive word to most.
Its like using the swastica. Sure its been a religious and cultural symbol for thousands of years but now anyone using it is hoping to offend.
What at least most of the woman here seem to objecting to in patriocentric religion is:
A religious and social system deliberate designed attempt to create an overwhelming feeling of guilt and failure in woman so as to lead them to ever greater levels of self degradation.
Which is pretty close to what feminists mean by the word.
I think that meets the secular definition of patriarchy. Let Doug Phillips have the word. Make it beyond the pale even in the conservative community.
August 28, 2007 at 7:38 pm
CD-Host, I agree with you. My answer to Kevin was a little tongue-in-cheek. It is very difficult to change terms when they are so widely used. That is why I chose to add the hyper to the patriarchy here. I think that is having an impact. I shall continue to use hyper-patriarchy, which seems to me to be an accurate term for Doug’s version of patriarchy.
August 28, 2007 at 8:09 pm
Cynthia Gee,
Three years ago I purchased Hentys from Vision Forum…they are the sanitized Preston Speed hardback editions. Are you absolutely certain about the volumes that VF sells today? I wouldn’t want you to misspeak about this.
Have a pleasant day,
Jean
August 28, 2007 at 8:34 pm
Jean, you and Cynthia are both right about the GA Henty books. Doug used to sell the Hentys that Preston Speed publishes. While the original Hentys do contain language that we would consider to be racist today, it was not really considered to be so when these books were written. Preston Speed has done a marvelous job of cleaning up the language and deleting unnecessary portions that might be offensive today. And Doug used to sell those books.
But the Hentys Doug sells now are from the Robinson curriculum, printed on demand. These Hentys are the original version with all the racist language included. They are also printed with inferior ink which rubs off rather easily.
August 28, 2007 at 8:41 pm
Jen —
If you are actually trying to coin a term and want to have a clear difference it might make sense to have a post / link where you define patriarchy vs. hyper-patriarchy vs. complimantarianism. There are certainly places where people have give their own definitions but… I guess given you run the “anti-patriarchy” board yours is fairly official 🙂
August 28, 2007 at 8:44 pm
Jen.. if you put up such a link, may I link to it? I don’t have anywhere near the readership that you do, but it would help to have everyone on the same page (no pun intended) when it comes to definitions.
August 28, 2007 at 8:58 pm
“Well, you read my writings and make false assumptions and assert that I should be ashamed of speaking highly of my own daughter… you have not proven trustworthy as far as I understand.”
No, Nikki… you missed my point. I think you should be ashamed to think so little of your daughter and her Faith that you don’t trust her to become an adult and live away form your sphere of influence. it is a shame that you had a negative experience with a young man, but does that mean that you should shield your daughter from all such experiences, positive and negative?
Personally, I would rather never have been born, than to be born and never live at all, spending my days as a perpetual child, abiding in a bubble as someone’s cosseted pet.
August 28, 2007 at 9:07 pm
CD-Host: “If you are actually trying to coin a term and want to have a clear difference it might make sense to have a post / link where you define patriarchy vs. hyper-patriarchy vs. complimantarianism.”
That’s a good idea for a new article, CD. I’ll put that on my list of things to write.
CD-Host: “… I guess given you run the “anti-patriarchy” board yours is fairly of”icial”
I don’t really mean for this to be anti-patriarchy. I know you weren’t around a few months ago, but I was still advocating patriarchy pretty strongly for quite a while – until I wrote that series on the “Tenets of Biblical Patriarchy” and I was forced to really examine how it lined up with Scripture. That is when I first realized there was something wrong with it. That was a very hard week for me.
August 28, 2007 at 9:31 pm
Jen,
Please forgive my sarcasm. I get a little cranky when I’m indirectly called “mindless” as women in Family Integrated churches have been labeled here.
I believe that what Ephesians says about husband and wives and children are vital and true instructions from God…. I don’t believe I need to be fifty years old to experience what the Bible states simply is true. Following God is about having standards and depending on God’s grace, not a groups expectations. Raising children is not a cookie cut process, but that doesn’t mean we throw out sound principles.
A biblical father guides and directs his children in the discipline and instruction of their Lord according to their God given talents. Guidance, instructions & protection do not limit a child. It gives the child the tools for their greatest potential.
I don’t discredit that God can use this internet avenue… but we do need real people we can see and touch and hear and cry with and laugh with… It’s part of being human. I would hope that that is what you have from all the people who already left. That they would be there to welcome you.
August 28, 2007 at 9:37 pm
CynthiaGee, I couldn’t agree with you more! I’m so thankful for my mother raising me to be a responsible Christian adult woman rather than an overgrown child!
I’m gasping in horror at the information you shared about the racist content of the books sold through Vision Forum. And they consider this bigoted drivel acceptable reading for children? God have mercy!
Basically, they are the ones who want to revise history. If I were to desire to fit in with these people, I would have to deny my African-American heritage. I would basically have to say that the people who fought, bled, died, was bitten by dogs and hosed down in the streets simply for wanting to drink from the same water fountain as whites didn’t know what they were talking about. After all, my ancestors were supposedly better off remaining as slaves because they were supposedly too stupid to be anything else.
Thank God for abolition and the civil rights movement! Thank God for people refusing to accept racism and hatred. I will be forever grateful to them for their sacrifices. Because of God using them, I am now able to walk through downtown Birmingham, AL (where we currently live) — the same streets where black protesters were hosed down and bitten in the 60s — without being abused and mistreated because I am black. I have the blessing of being able to fellowship with Christians of all races without fear of being lynched the next day. Hallelujah!
Doug Phillips and his crew can keep their hankering for “the good old days” to themselves. For my race, there was nothing good about them!
August 28, 2007 at 10:09 pm
Marsena,
“Thank God for abolition and the civil rights movement! Thank God for people refusing to accept racism and hatred. ”
Yes!!
I have been doing some reading on the history of abolitionism in Europe and the United States and a very minute part of that was what Doug uses to tar and feather all of the abolitionist movement as “evil”. There were many godly men and women who worked to end slavery and the slave trade. Just because there were a couple of whack-jobs who were out of control doesn’t mean anything.
I decided, after doing some research, that I am going to read a biography on Wilberforce (read this a while ago when my oldest was in school) and Uncle Tom’s Cabin. I also found another great book about a slave girl’s story at the gift shop under the St. Louis Arch the other day and I plan on reading that one, too.
I have a LOT of the Henty books bought right from Vision Forum. I will have to look to see just what version I have. But, I could hardly stomach the Elsie books and one of the main reasons was because of the racist elements in that book with absolutely no caveats in the forward concerning the wrongness of such thinking.
August 28, 2007 at 10:25 pm
Nikki, no one here is advocating throwing out sound biblical principles. You will find that most of us are in agreement with the plain teachings of the Bible on what our roles are as men and women. It is what is added to those plain teachings that we object to, especially when new “sins” are invented.
I am also not here to say that all family-integrated churches are alike or all patriarchy families do everything the same. Personally, I abhor such broad generalizations and prefer to look at individuals instead. I think there is much good in the concept of family-integrated churches, which is one reason why I have such a difficult time finding a church right now. I am loath to go back to a traditional church. I also see clearly that your view of patriarchy is not Doug’s view of patriarchy. I don’t necessarily agree with all that you espouse, but you do not hold Doug’s position either.
I guess that’s one of the reasons I go into the details so much here. What Doug says and writes seems innocuous enough on the surface, but what happens in real life is where it counts.
August 29, 2007 at 5:00 am
Nikki wrote: “Please forgive my sarcasm. I get a little cranky when I’m indirectly called “mindless” as women in Family Integrated churches have been labeled here.”
Nikki,
I dont think that one person here thinks you’re “mindless.” You’ve clearly got a very good mind and a heart of valor because you’re defending your cause as well as those you hold in high esteem.
As I would say that the majority of us who participate have been in a similar place at one time in our lives, also defending our former pastors and elders and churches. I was not called into a “star chamber” for interrogation as some here have been, but I did go to my elders to address a list of things serious problems. In that meeting, the pastor who I loved like a second father sat there and lied and denied the truth. When we decided to leave (about a month later), we were given the “don’t leave our umbrella of covering because we don’t want to terrible harm come to you.” In counseling, even then, I continued to defend that pastor for which my counselor would have to remind me. I would slip back into my role of defending a very abusive man. A man I loved dearly. It took me years to comprehend how deceptive it all was and to esteem him in a manner (both good and bad) that was true and fair to both of us. For 3/4 of my time at that church, I fit in very well and served God. I was not mindless: I was ignorant of the abuses and unwilling to entertain any thought of leadership doing moral and ethical wrong as any good Christian would. I was naive and I was deceived.
But then I started to see what had been going on all along. I started to notice or question those little things and comments and all those things that come to your attention to which you say “I must have missed something….I missunderstood….They could not have meant that….I don’t believe this because no reasonable person would let that happen….” One day, I hit a limit and I started asking, “What is really going on here?” And over the course of a year, without seeking out anything, despite my resistance, situations and problems just started presenting. Everywhere. And when I realized what was occuring, I followed my duty to the truth and responded. And I was cursed and sent out into outer darkness, told that God had abandoned me. Like Jen. Like “m….” who ocassionally responds here. Like so many others here who were manipulated with fear and threat upon leaving.
So you are not any more or less mindless than I was when my church and participation seemed glorious. I do think that you are deceived. So I pray that God has used this issue/website/challenge/discussion to plant this tiny seed in your mind and heart. I am confident in God’s promise that He leads and guides us by His Spirit into all truth, and I am confident that you love Him with all you are and all you have. If all these things are true, at the appointed time, God will cause that seed to grow and a part of you will remember this little blog and my prayer for you to know the truth and be free indeed. I pray that at that moment, God floods you with peace and rest, remembering that you are on the course to freedom through God’s revealed truth, through His working in your own very excellent heart and MIND.
August 29, 2007 at 7:10 am
“I believe that what Ephesians says about husband and wives and children are vital and true instructions from God…….. Following God is about having standards and depending on God’s grace, not a groups expectations. Raising children is not a cookie cut process, but that doesn’t mean we throw out sound principles.
A biblical father guides and directs his children in the discipline and instruction of their Lord according to their God given talents.”
Nikki, I also agree with Ephesians, AND I agree with Cindy K. when she says that you are far from mindless, and a woman of valor. You have defended your ideas valiantly, and it’s not you I have a problem with, it’s the ideas themselves.
Certainly a father directs and instructs his children, and there are Bible verses to this effect that the VF folks use to convince people that parents are the ONLY people who should teach their children, and that sending them to be taught by someone else is sinful. The verses, however, do not teach that.
“Deu 11:18 ¶ Therefore shall ye lay up these my words in your heart and in your soul, and bind them for a sign upon your hand, that they may be as frontlets between your eyes. Deu 11:19 And ye shall teach them your children, speaking of them when thou sittest in thine house, and when thou walkest by the way, when thou liest down, and when thou risest up. Deu 11:20 And thou shalt write them upon the door posts of thine house, and upon thy gates…”
This verse tells us that God’s Word should be always before us, and it tells us that parents should teach their children the Scriptures. By the time of Jesus, the very literally minded Pharisees had also interpreted this to mean that they should strap little boxes containing writings from the Law to their wrists, their foreheads, and their front doors, but even they didn’t take this as a ban against village schools — most towns had a small school, where boys (and occasionally girls) gathered to be taught reading and writing in the Hebrew language by the local rabbi. Jesus likely attended such a school, and almost certainly Paul did as well, before going on to more advanced studies. The equivalent of this today is the church-run school, which Phillips and his idological ilk have twisted the Scriptures to say is a violation of Deuteronomy 11.
The scripture twisting here is subtle — Deuteronomy 11 certainly says that parents are to instruct their children in the Word. But it DOES NOT SAY that parents must instruct their children in academic subjects as well, NOR does it say that parents are to be the ONLY people who instruct their children!
Phillips is a sly fox– you have to hand it to him. He’s done a bang-up job of using this scripture and others to convince parents that homeschooling is the only truly Biblical way to go, and just to make it easier, HE has the homeschooling materials those parents will need to remain in compliance with “God’s mandate”, smartly packaged and conveniently revised to reflect his and his father’s worldview and political agenda. What a deal!
……. for Phillips and other dominionist curriculum hucksters, that is — they get to be spiritual leaders, promote their political “vision”, and make money hand over fist, all at the same time!
August 29, 2007 at 8:09 am
“Doug Phillips and his crew can keep their hankering for “the good old days” to themselves. For my race, there was nothing good about them!”
Amen and amen.
This is how I KNOW that the dominionist/patriarchal movement is evil: No religion or denomination can be called Godly if it elevates one race or national culture above another — in Christ there is no Jew or Greek. Christ’s church is universal, transcending race, nation, culture, sex, era, and economic station. This is the meaning of “catholic” (with a small “c”, LOL)
I would also be less than honest if I didn’t admit that I have a dog in this hunt.
My family includes members from three races and a dozen countries: my husband’s family is descended from free black Englishmen, American slaves, and Seneca, Blackfoot and Cherokee Indians. My family is Irish, German, Welsh and Cherokee on one side and Mexican and Indian on the other. Our grandchildren are beautiful — I wish I knew how to post their pictures on Blogger.
These racists operating under the guise of Christianity have caused a lot of non-white youngsters to lose their faith, and by the time my grandbabies grow up, I want Phillips’ brand of racism cloaked in religion to be HISTORY, dead and buried.
August 29, 2007 at 9:53 am
“These racists operating under the guise of Christianity have caused a lot of non-white youngsters to lose their faith, and by the time my grandbabies grow up, I want Phillips’ brand of racism cloaked in religion to be HISTORY, dead and buried.”
Yes! And I plan to show up with the biggest shovel ever to help with the burial!
August 29, 2007 at 10:32 am
Got a backhoe? 🙂
August 29, 2007 at 11:21 am
Nikki said, “Please forgive my sarcasm. I get a little cranky when I’m indirectly called “mindless” as women in Family Integrated churches have been labeled here.”
It may surprise you to know that I have been in family integrated churches for most of my life, I’m 44. Way before it was a popular “movement’ capitalized on by some authors and speakers. Further, my husband and I “kissed dating goodbye” in 1984. At that time there were no books written on the subject we just did what we believed the scripture taught us. My husband and I never dated. We were engaged the week after my parents met him and gave us their blessing. We now have six children (oldest is 18) who have grown up in family integrated churches.
I have been reading this blog since nearly the beginning and have not felt that anyone here thought me or any women “mindless” for my convictions nor have I felt attacked for what I believe. Even though on some points I have very different beliefs than others who participate here.
As Christian women, we should not feel threatened, attacked, or ridiculed when others examine what we believe. If we’re bold enough to put it out there and say you’re right, you have to be ready for others to just as bold and say you’re wrong. Even if their motives are harsh and their tone unkind. Truth can withstand the toughest scrutiny and that includes those in blogosphere. I’m not threatened by derogatory names or close examination of my beliefs nor should anyone who claims to believe the Truth.
I want to the believe the Truth. If someone can show me scripturally where my beliefs don’t line up with the word of God, then I need to change my beliefs. The best ones to help me discern what I believe are often those that disagree with me most vehemently. If I can refute their assertions, then my convictions are strengthened, if I can’t then I go back to the Bible and study the issue until the disagreement is resolved.
That doesn’t necessarily happen overnight, often this may take months or years to study. But that’s what we’re called to do. “Study to show ourselves approved unto God, a workman that needeth not be ashamed rightly dividing the word of Truth.” Without the challenges of other believers, I would go on believing that I’m right about everything. That’s not a good place for any believer as pride and arrogance come before a great fall.
I want to believe the Truth and thus I don’t fear exposure of my beliefs to challenges of others, nor do I take their challenge as a personal attack against me. If I have not rightly divided the word of Truth, I am thankful for those that show me my error no matter who is that person is. ‘Faithful are the wounds of a f riend.” It’s humbling to admit I could be wrong, but in my opinion believing a lie and teaching that to others is far worse.
August 29, 2007 at 11:31 am
Exactly so, Morgan. There’s no substitute for sharpening iron against iron.