Throughout November the internet exploded with the news of Doug Phillips’ recent public resignation from Vision Forum Ministries. Even though it’s been a little more than a month, various comments to my articles, as well as blog stats, clearly show that many are just now finding out. Many more will continue finding out in weeks to come.
Quite a few people initially equated Doug Phillips’ Statement Of Resignation with “repentance.” However, as I explained in a previous article, it was no such thing. Doug Phillips was duplicitous and evasive in just about everything he said in his public statements. However, he did at least tell the truth about one thing. He got the title right. It was a “Statement Of Resignation”, and nothing more.
Too many of the blog and newspaper headlines were along the lines of, Doug Phillips Extramarital Affair Forces Resignation From Vision Forum Ministries. I too made the mistake initially of using the term “extra-marital affair” to describe this scandal. However, I quickly came to see that, although it was indeed extra-marital and, therefore adultery against his wife, “affair” is an inappropriate term to use in this context. Worse yet it excuses what is, in reality, criminal conduct.
Herein I will use the term “adultery” to define Doug Phillips’ betrayal against his wife, and “clergy sexual abuse” to define his criminal actions against the young lady who, for purposes of this article and future articles, I will call “Cassandra.” Doug Phillips would object to my application of the terms “adultery” and “sex” in much the same way that Bill Clinton objected to those terms. As lawyers they use “adultery” in the strict legal sense of only constituting sexual intercourse, and if it’s not sexual intercourse it’s not even “sex.” For Doug Phillips’ it was just “an inappropriate relationship.” Such parsing leaves a lot of wiggle room, although I won’t get any more graphic than that (this is a G-rated blog).
Doug Phillips also interprets “biblically knowing each other” as sexual intercourse, and only sexual intercourse. In his way of thinking he can perpetrate any physical act, with any woman not his wife, short of actual sexual intercourse, and it’s not adultery against his wife. In his mind he hasn’t cheated on his wife and he’s not an adulterer. This gives him the escape clause he needs from being subject to the same terrible judgment that he’s pounded the pulpit with for years: “The Bible requires that all adulterers be stoned to death.” Regardless of his rationalizing, Doug Phillips is an adulterer and worse. However, I don’t believe he should be stoned to death. Doug Phillips should be grateful that our criminal justice system is rooted in English Common Law and not Sharia.
Here’s the problem with the term “affair”: It defines a relationship based upon free will and informed consent. Such a relationship is one in which both parties are fully willing to participate — where there is no coercion, manipulation, or control, and where there is a reasonable expectation that any promises made can be realistically fulfilled. Both parties are in full control of their mental faculties and emotions, and remain free moral agents. They are free at all times to say, “No” without fear of retaliatory consequences; or if after they have said “Yes” they are free to later say, “I made a mistake. This isn’t right. It’s gone too far. I want out.” Lastly, and most importantly here, an “affair” can only happen where the two parties have relatively equal “power” in the relationship. None of these things occurred in the Doug Phillips/Cassandra case because, as I’ve explained in my previous article, Boerne Christian Assembly is a religious sociological cult and Doug Phillips is the cult leader.
Doug Phillips characterizes his relationship with Cassandra as an “inappropriate relationship”, but this strains all credulity. Let’s just call it what the Bible calls it: adultery against his wife. Doug Phillips clearly demonstrates his lack of remorse (and therefore lack of repentance) when he trivializes the gravity of his offenses in Clinton-esque we didn’t go all the way terms. Even Doug Phillips’ strongest supporters didn’t buy it for long.
Cassandra was in the Phillips home every day for at least 12 years, and probably longer. It started at the time she was a young teenager, all with her parents’ consent and encouragement. She and her family were members of Doug Phillips’ religious sociological cult, masquerading as a church, Boerne Christian Assembly. Cassandra quickly became highly valued by Doug Phillips, who said of her, “In fact, we consider her to be a member of the family, and her parents to be the dearest of friends.”
Cassandra began serving part-time in the Phillips’ home when she was 15, and was there full-time from the age of 17. Even though Cassandra came from a very poor family, Doug Phillips didn’t pay her. No one, other than Doug and Cassandra, know exactly when the sex began but, at best, Cassandra was barely at the age of legal consent (17 in Texas). Some have argued that it likely started when she was under the age of consent. For Doug Phillips’ sake he’d better not have done anything at all “inappropriate” if she was under the age of consent. Texas has no statute of limitations in certain cases of sexual acts with a minor under the age of legal consent. He also better not have paid her off the buy her silence, for that too would have onerous legal consequences. But even if the sex started at 17 this wouldn’t necessarily leave Doug Phillips clear of the possibility of criminal prosecution, both in Texas and under federal statute.
Because of her age, as well as the BCA cult training, which conditioned BCA girls to “submit” to fathers and elders (i.e. passive obeisance), she would have been extremely vulnerable to Doug Phillips’ advances. The daily contact, coupled with Doug Phillips’ charm, would have softened her up.
BCA may have been a reasonably healthy and normal church when it was first started by Doug Phillips and three other church elders. There was genuine pastoral accountability and a divergence of opinions among the elders. But as those other elders started leaving to start their own churches closer to their own home towns, ultimately leaving only Doug Phillips to rule the roost, it left a vacuum of accountability and diversity of doctrine. The power soon went to his head and Doug Phillips was left unchecked to rule as an autocrat. The authoritarian Hyper-Patriarchy doctrines he continuously taught of unquestioning loyalty and submission of wives and daughters to husbands and fathers, and each of them in turn in complete subservience to their church elders (of which Doug Phillips was the only one for most of BCA’s history) served as a powerful form of mind control, as evidenced in most all religious sociological cults.
At BCA the mind control was reinforced by the terrifying prospect of excommunication, and the inevitable shunning of the entire family for one member’s excommunication. Those who have never been in a cult, or who have never studied the sociological structure and psychology of cults, find it difficult to comprehend how otherwise intelligent people can give up control over their lives, their freedom of will, and even their freedom of thought, to a charismatic leader; but the fact is it happens all the time. Most assuredly it happened to Cassandra, as well as to her parents. They all were swept up in the excitement of following a home school rock star.
Doug Phillips’ cult leader powers of persuasion add another strong argument against Cassandra having entered into a sexual relationship with Doug Phillips of her own free will, anymore than did the multiple women that David Koresh bedded. The sociological structure of Doug Phillips’ power-cult, along with his idol status among his followers (especially among the women), made it inevitable that he could, if he wanted to, bed almost any of his followers, including teens, and married women.
There are numerous reports of women flirting with Doug Phillips, both in BCA and elsewhere. This would be consistent with the behavior of “groupies” who follow rock stars. Indeed, prior to his fall Doug Phillips had a rock star status among his followers, and he had his groupies. Is a man responsible for a woman flirting with him? If he encourages it, yes, especially if he holds a position of authority over her. A man in a position of authority, and particularly pastoral authority, should do everything in his power to dissuade flirtation, not encourage it. From all reports Doug Phillips encouraged the flirtation. He, thereby, invited temptation, both to himself and to the women that he exchanged flirtations with. No doubt the cumulative effect of all that flirtation was that it went to his already inflated fat ego. In his pride Doug Phillips encouraged, rather than discouraged, his own adulation. The inevitable result was his self-destruction:
Pride goes before destruction, a haughty spirit before a fall. (Proverbs 16:18)
It’s likely that Cassandra did flirt with Doug Phillips, and for that she is probably now blaming herself. She does bear responsibility for her part in this but, in my view, her part is almost inconsequential to the sin that resulted. Doug Phillips was the moral leader and had the responsibility to rebuff any flirtations that were directed at him; but that not only didn’t happen, Doug Phillips has been seen many times in public encouraging the flirtations of his adoring female fans. As this illustration shows, the religious leader always has the weight of responsibility for preventing marital infidelity because he holds the role of leader, plus he has the advantage of experience, knowledge, authority and power, and the victim generally holds little if any of those things:
These relational imbalances are the reason why various licensed professions, such as Psychiatrists, Counselors, Therapists, Doctors, and Nurses are held to strict professional standards of conduct which govern their relationships with clients and co-workers. In all cases sexual relationships with clients and patients are prohibited. The same applies in the military where superior ranking officers and enlisted personnel aren’t permitted to “fraternize” with subordinate ranking personnel. Numerous professions have such restrictions, including clergymen. One problem, however, is that too many clergymen don’t think such standards should or do apply to them. This is especially true of those in “independent non-denominational” churches where they often have little to no accountability. However, in many states there are laws governing the conduct of clergymen with their church members. Texas is one of those states:
TITLE 5. OFFENSES AGAINST THE PERSON
CHAPTER 22. ASSAULTIVE OFFENSES
Sec. 22.011. SEXUAL ASSAULT. (a) A person commits an offense if the person:
(b) A sexual assault under Subsection (a)(1) is without the consent of the other person if:
(10) the actor is a clergyman who causes the other person to submit or participate by exploiting the other person’s emotional dependency on the clergyman in the clergyman’s professional character as spiritual adviser;
(f) An offense under this section is a felony of the second degree, except that an offense under this section is a felony of the first degree if the victim was a person whom the actor was prohibited from marrying or purporting to marry or with whom the actor was prohibited from living under the appearance of being married under Section 25.01.
Sexual abuse by a clergyman has sometimes been prosecuted as a federal crime, as was Pastor Jack Schaap who received a 12 year sentence for engaging in sex with an underage girl. Schaap was initially investigated in his home state of Indiana but was cleared when it was found that the girl was of the age of consent (16 in Indiana) when the sex started. The FBI later picked up the case when it was determined that Schaap had traveled with the girl to at least two other states where they engaged in sex. Those states’ age of consent was higher. Furthermore, the federal age of consent is 18.
Doug Phillips treated Cassandra as “a member of the family” and she routinely traveled with him all over the country, and out of the country, often without Beall. With all the out of state travel it could easily change the question of age of legal consent considerably. However, this issue of legal age of consent is still separate and apart from the matter of criminal sexual abuse by a clergyman, and it’s entirely possible that Doug Phillips may be guilty of both.
In the Phillips sociological cult structure Cassandra would have been conditioned to act exactly as she did. In other words, if she did flirt with Doug Phillips, it was only after she had witnessed other young ladies doing the same, and his favorable responses to them. Her flirtations toward him also would not have happened until after he had directed signals of his interest at her first. He wanted her attention and, in her teenage ignorance, she gave it to him. Once he got it he rewarded her with special favors and privileges, including further access to him. Since she knew that he carefully guarded his access to himself, she would have felt highly favored to get to spend time in his exalted presence. That access was in itself a huge reward. Once it turned physical this would have been interpreted as an even greater reward. This is all part of what cult experts and psychologists call “grooming.” Cassandra’s attraction to Doug served to cloud his already self-aggrandizing judgment as he sought to rationalize what turned into years of cheating on his wife.
Sociopaths, with their lack of conscience, can readily do that. For a sociopath it’s not about having to deal with a guilty conscience because they, quite literally, have no conscience. But sociopaths are keenly aware of the importance of conforming to social norms within their particular sub-culture. So in Doug Phillips’ case it was just a matter of not getting caught. Add narcissism and a lawyer’s craftiness to the mix and you have a toxic recipe. That narcissism ultimately led to Doug’s downfall. He started to get sloppy. Most adulterers work hard to conceal their cheating, but a narcissist who has so long gotten away with his transgressions will tend to get more brazen about it.
In February 2012* Doug wasn’t even trying to conceal his “inappropriate relationship” with Cassandra. He was parading her around the San Antonio Independent Film Festival (Feb 23-25) as they walked as lovers, hand in hand. Eye witnesses were stunned and assumed Doug Phillips had just completely lost his mind.
In January 2013 Doug was literally caught with his pants down, in his home, by one or more Phillips family members. To the best of our knowledge it was Beall and or Josh who caught them.
Prior to this point the relationship had been an open secret. As long as Doug kept it in the closet no one at BCA or Vision Forum would hold him accountable. But for Doug to openly flaunt his adultery put everything in jeopardy, including many people’s jobs. Something had to be done. Doug was finally confronted in an “emergency BCA meeting” in February where he allegedly confessed and repented and stepped down as Elder of BCA. Doug promised the relationship would end. It didn’t. It just went back into the closet.
By September 2013 Scott Brown and the Vision Forum board members were informed of Doug’s cheating, either directly or indirectly. Pastor Joe Morecraft and Peter Bradrick flew to San Antonio in the later part of October to confront Doug Phillips for his sin. As Peter Bradrick articulated on his Facebook, things didn’t go well. However, they did go exactly as anyone should expect when confronting a sociopathic narcissist. The Notice Of Resignation followed shortly thereafter.
This entire saga makes for a textbook case of clergy sexual abuse. It is, therefore, not an “extra-marital affair.” Tragically, cases like this one are not rare. Instances of clergy sexual abuse are rampant. They must be exposed and the perpetrators must be prevented from ever again being welcomed into positions of power and trust where they can prey on the vulnerable. This especially applies to Doug Phillips who is guilty of many more betrayals than just this one case of clergy sexual abuse.
Numerous have been the comments requesting prayer for Doug Phillips and his family. Strangely absent are prayer requests for Cassandra and her family. No doubt they’re just following the example of Doug Phillips who, likewise, makes no requests for prayers for Cassandra and her family. It’s as though they don’t even exist and Doug Phillips isn’t guilty of betraying any family other than his own. I can only conclude this is because they view Cassandra as an adulteress, and likely a temptress who bears responsibility for the downfall of a great Christian leader. Clearly they don’t view her as a victim, but they really need to. If it was one of their daughters who had been caught up in such a cult I can guarantee they’d be blaming no one but the cult leader for it.
Some have asked, “What sort of a future could Cassandra see with Doug Phillips? She stuck with him throughout her later teens and the whole of her 20’s – the full span of time when all the other BCA girls are the most eager to marry. Why did she sacrifice all those years for a man who, by all appearances, couldn’t offer her marriage? The fact of the matter is he did offer her marriage, and she believed him.
Some bloggers, such as Doug Wilson, have alleged that Cassandra was some sort of “Foxy Bubbles” seductress. Far from her being the tempting seductress, it was Doug Phillips who seduced Cassandra with charm and promises. His promises included marriage and children, and his promises were sealed with what can only be viewed as an engagement ring. As confirmed by this image from 2010, Cassandra has been wearing an engagement ring for a minimum of four years.
The implications of this need to be understood in the context of the cultish culture of Boerne Christian Assembly. Many BCA girls are given “purity rings” by their fathers, which they wear on their ring finger until it is replaced with an engagement ring given to them by a fiancé. Purity rings are always simple plain bands of silver, and occasionally gold. Never would they resemble an expensive engagement ring with a large multi-caret diamond, such as the one seen here. No one in BCA could have failed to see such an expensive engagement ring on Cassandra’s ring finger. No one would have believed that it was a promise ring, especially since her father was too poor to afford it. It should have been obvious that Doug Phillips had plans for Cassandra of a permanent nature. But when you’re a cult member you just don’t question such things, and that even includes the cult leader’s wife. Whether it makes any sense to us or not, the fact of the matter is that Cassandra has believed for years that Doug Phillips would make good on his promises to marry her.
There’s one major impediment to fulfilling that promise – his marriage to Beall. Doug is deep into Patriarchy, and there are those who call themselves Patriarchs who are also into polygamy, but it’s unlikely Doug will go that far. Divorce would settle Doug’s problem but Doug doesn’t have any biblical grounds for divorcing Beall. Beall, however, certainly has biblical and legal grounds for divorcing Doug. Unfortunately Beall shares Doug’s beliefs that divorce is never permissible.
This prohibition of divorce in all cases only makes sense in light of Theonomy. But even most theonomists disagree with Doug’s extreme position on divorce. Theonomists generally hold to the more conventional view that divorce is permissible only in cases of adultery and abandonment. As an extreme Theonomist Doug Phillips would have all adulterers put to death. Thus, if your wife cheats on you, you stone her to death, leaving yourself free to remarry, without the inconvenience of having to divorce, or the stigma associated with being a “divorcee.” This also leaves you free to continue being a pastor or elder (many churches ban divorcees from being pastors and elders).
Why would Doug Phillips make promise after promise, year after year, of marriage and children to another woman when, by his own doctrinal standards, he could have no lawful means of getting out of his current marriage? His only out is if Beall were to die.
Several people, knowing Doug’s extreme views on divorce and remarriage, have emailed Jen and I expressing their deep concerns for Beall’s safety. It would be hard to miss the implications of where Doug Phillips’ extremist views might ultimately lead, and for those who have been following my articles you already know my take on Doug Phillips’ mental condition. Those already familiar with such personality disorders know what a narcissistic sociopath is capable of.
Compounding our concerns is the fact that Doug Phillips has had to confront such desperate times, and may soon be confronting even more desperate times. The old adage, “Desperate times call for desperate measures” seems ready made for an already mentally imbalanced man.
The worst possible scenario for Beall is if Doug’s exit strategy includes moving the family to some obscure place, in some obscure country (like Kenya with Brad, or maybe Peru), out of the public eye, where Doug is no longer subject to scrutiny, and Beall is cut off from all outside communication.
Pray for Beall Phillips and for the Phillips’ children. May God preserve them and protect them from all harm. And don’t forget to keep Cassandra, and her family, in your prayers, as well.
*Author’s Note: I had previously stated this occurred in 2013. After checking again with my sources I realized that my chronology was inaccurate. The circumstances remain unchanged, but the chronology of events was out of order. I apologize for any confusion. If anything this creates an even more problematic situation. What this means is that key Vision Forum people had first hand knowledge that the “inappropriate relationship” had been going on for even far longer than we even realized and, apparently, little or nothing was done to confront it.
December 14, 2013 at 6:20 pm
thank you for the update TWE
December 14, 2013 at 6:42 pm
Look at this on CNN about polygamy: http://www.cnn.com/2013/12/14/justice/utah-polygamy-law/index.html?hpt=hp_t2
December 14, 2013 at 8:44 pm
I wanted to say that there are so many Christians who act soft on this horrific sin, like we should not name names or be enraged, but instead try to say we ought to be quiet and praying for a wolf…….I want to remind them that Jesus himself got angry and named names of people who did wicked. Paul was known to name names and call wicked ones out(1Tim:20 or 2Tim4:14). It is not gossip or sinful to call DP and his accomplices out. They are false teachers who have led many to the slaughter house. DP is never going to repent because he is a wolf. Maybe some others will, but he is reprobate and on a whole other level than normal human beings. Christian people need to stop being so watered down. Call a spade a spade. God is a god of love, yes, but He is also a God of wrath and hates sin and especially wolves. Thank you for being bold enough to expose this cult and it’s wicked ruler. Be sure his sin has found him out!
December 15, 2013 at 8:58 am
I probably should not ask this but this just keeps popping in my heard. Could it be a possibility that Doug and Cassandra could be secretly married. Crazy question I know.
December 15, 2013 at 12:50 pm
Teresa N, legally, no, that is not possible. Did they take a private vow before God? Only they would know that.
December 15, 2013 at 1:00 pm
I told you it was a crazy question…..lol .crazy stuff
December 15, 2013 at 12:58 pm
Jen – I’m sorry for what your family went through years ago w/Doug and BCA. And for all the pain and suffering that has had on your marriage and your children. If people only knew…
But I’m so glad you had the courage to start the blog, to keep it online, and to expose all this. In watching this all unfold from a more distanced perspective no, having been so far removed from BCA and the flock of phillipites and other “home church patriarchal families” for some time now, I feel that I am watching God restore YOUR life, your spirit, your purpose. God is a God of Restoration. Restoring your life has been a long time coming. I hope this site is a source of healing for the tens of thousands of families affected by Vision Forum and Doug Phillips and actually ALL the abusive christian leaders/churches out there and through that family that YOUR life/direction/purpose is restored and set on the path I think it may have always been intended.
While there have been many personal sacrifices, trials, tribulations that you have endured over the past…oh…10yrs+??? since this fall out with BCA, I feel like perhaps there is a season turning. Can’t put my finger on it – but in spite of all this making me feel sad and frustrated w/the church as a whole, as in the body of Christ itself (religion aside), I feel oddly … inspired.
December 15, 2013 at 2:31 pm
Aww, Sarah that was so sweet. I love when people encourage one another. I too feel that there is something beyond ourselves going on and Jen is being used greatly.
December 15, 2013 at 4:06 pm
Thank you so much, Sarah! I am sure that God has something good for me just around the corner! In the meantime, I will continue helping people in the best ways I know how.
Thanks for being such an awesome friend, Sarah, and one who truly understands, in so many ways!
May 17, 2014 at 11:59 am
Wow! There is so much folly on this blog, I don’t know where to start.
1 Timothy 5:19 Against an elder receive not an accusation, but before two or three witnesses.
How many of you have met DP? How many of you have spoken to the witnesses? The internet does not qualify as a witness! The only thing I can say I know, is whatever DP has said openly.
Many men of God fall hard because they speak the truth. The Adversary does not bother with bloggers or those of us who set ourselves up as the Church’s New Sanhedrin.
If you want to discard his message of patriarchy, be sure to disregard Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob.
If you want to disregard the words of men of God who have fallen hard, cut the Psalms (written by adulterer) and the Song of Solomon (a polygamist and a law breaker) out of you “holy bibles”.
I have fallen hard in my life and by the grace of God I appreciate his grace. He calls sinners to repentance, not the righteous.
Everyone of you puts his mask on before going to church.
None of you confesses his deepest darkest shameful sin in the assembly.
How many of you are gluttons, TV addicts, social media addicts, have anger issues, have viewed internet porn, spend all your money on stuff?
I don’ t know about DP or the girl, but I do know that as God brought the Messiah through the lineage of Solomon the polygamist, Lot’s daughters-patriphiles, David the adulterer, Abraham who married his half-sister, Jacob with Tamar, his daughter in law: and Rahab the harlot;
I know that God, who works all things after the counsel of his own will, can bring these many sons to glory, that God may be all in all!
May 20, 2014 at 5:06 pm
Randy Mitchell, are you trying to JUSTIFY Doug’s adultery of *several* years, and subsequent NON-repentance? Furthermore, some of the things you said in your post point to the whole root of this problem… Patriarchy of the Old Testament. We do not live under the OT law of Patriarchy, Mr. Mitchell. Adultery and multiple wives are neither encouraged nor condoned in Scripture. Or did you miss those parts of the New Testament?
May 21, 2014 at 7:37 am
ditto to dmaxell
May 20, 2014 at 5:10 pm
And furthermore, there’s a HUGE difference between the adulterer-author of many of the Psalms and DP. First of all, that well-known adulterer of old was REPENTANT. There have been absolutely no signs of repentance on DP’s part, including his continuing threats against those who speak the truth. Secondly, King David had a very special and unique place in history and God’s plan for redemption. DP does not, regardless of what some of his followers want to believe.
Oh my goodness, there are so many other problems with your post that I can’t even begin to name them all!
May 21, 2014 at 7:38 am
May 20, 2014 at 6:07 pm
Well thanks for not throwing any stones!!
May 21, 2014 at 7:35 am
You say that the only thing you know is what DP has said openly. What about what others have said openly? Is DP the only oracle of truth?
No, many men do not “fall hard because they speak the truth.” Men fail when they lean on the flesh rather than the Spirit. Men fail when they begin to feel entitled. If your premise is that men in powerful positions are bigger targets for Satan, it makes one wonder why we set men on such high and unbiblical pedestals.
What I think is really telling, though, is the implication that we must excuse DP because we all, too, nurse secret sins in our bosoms. Nowhere does the Bible suggest that we are to excuse sin. We can be cleansed from it, but we cannot excuse it. I don’t think anyone is claiming that DP cannot ever be brought to a place of repentance. When you point to Old Testament characters and say that God accomplished His will in spite of their failings, that in no way justifies the things they did wrong. (Of course not everything you have listed was wrong. For example, at that time Abram married, there was no prohibition on marrying his half-sister.)
(And by the way, it was Judah, not Jacob, who fathered Tamar’s child.)
December 15, 2013 at 3:02 pm
I have read the abuse that you and your husband suffered at the hand of the tool, but one thing sticks out, why in the world would you keep going back and almost beg to get back in, you both seem pretty intelligent people. If Christ talked to you, he would have said run as fast as you can , but you both kept going back…. WHY?
December 15, 2013 at 3:57 pm
Buddy, why did we want back in? Because the relationships developed in such a community are so tight that they are closer than family for most folks. They were our family. We loved them as family. It was like death to have them all ripped away from us like that.
December 15, 2013 at 9:13 pm
I totall get this. Even to this day when I drive by our former church I feel a guilt for leaving, a fear that we did the wrong thing, I miss the people in some ways, I miss the comradrie in some ways… there is no way to explain the shunning from people who “loved” you unless you’ve experienced it.
December 15, 2013 at 10:44 pm
I think Doug understood the power of shunning, but he did not take into account that some people will stand on principle and conviction no matter how difficult the shunning.
December 16, 2013 at 5:53 pm
I can understand the feeling of despair you went through and I hope this mess eventually clears its self up. I was raised Primitive Methodist, our rules were simple, we accepted Christ, we listened to sermons by WOMAN preachers. and we live by three simple rules, be good to the poor, tend to the sick and lastly, be good to one another. Its a sure fire way of getting that first class ticket to heaven
December 17, 2013 at 9:32 am
Buddy, that sounds like a great way to live the second greatest commandment!
December 15, 2013 at 8:43 pm
Jen and TW,
Do you think Doug was planning to divorce Beall? How would he have made a promise of marriage seem legitimate or biblical to Cassandra?
December 15, 2013 at 10:41 pm
Erik, divorce would have brought down Doug’s whole ministry, so I seriously doubt he was planning divorce. I think he just enjoyed having his cake and eating it, too. How did he convince Cassandra? I don’t know.
December 16, 2013 at 8:47 am
Another damning report is posted here on the blog, but it raises more questions for me and for the bloggers/ commentators:
1. What Spirit-led woman would flirt with homeschool-rock-star, DP? TW says it was happening at BCA – but offers no proof. Taking his word that he does indeed have proof and laying aside for a moment DP’s culpability, what does that say of the folks at BCA? Sounds like a lot of them were culpable alongside DP. In other words (assuming all this is true), both DP and the sheeple were guilty of idolizing DP. Why is there no ownership of the fools for following DP?
2. TW tells quite a story. Maybe it’s all true – I have no way of knowing. But I would like to see proof. TW says DP was caught literally with his pants down. How do we know this is true? And what about the SA film festival with “Cassandra.” Can we have some pictures or eye witness accounts of that please?
I’m not trying to whitewash DP’s adultery or clergy abuse. But I would just ask two things of this blogsite:
1. Please no embellishing the story (or telling the story without proving up allegations with credible evidence); or qualify every fact that you are unwilling to substantiate for privacy concerns (e.g., “I’m told X, but for the moment it is unsubstantiated and could be made up or inflated…”). Don’t you realize that people are reading this and assuming it’s all true?
2. Tell the story with humility and balance (e.g., very little, if any, decrying of co-culpability of the BCA fools – which apparently some of you were). Let’s take some ownership in the DP failure – we all helped raise him up.
December 16, 2013 at 8:59 am
Mick, at this time, I can tell you two things. First, when we do our research, nearly every detail is verified by more than one witness. Second, there are many people reading this blog who have witnessed these things first hand and we always encourage them to let us know if we get any details wrong. We are in constant contact with many people who know about these things and so far, no one has said these details are wrong. So, our checks-and-balance system is to hear from multiple witnesses first, and then to offer the opportunity for others to correct anything written here.
If you were snowed by Doug, would you be volunteering to let the whole world know how gullible you were?
December 16, 2013 at 10:12 am
Third, we didn’t all help raise him up, some saw the wolf from a distance and yelled.
December 16, 2013 at 12:59 pm
True, that. Two godly older men warned our family that something was very amiss with DP. In our minds, we just labeled them “worldly” and went on our merry way. We were foolish – very foolish to disregard the advice of older saints. I own up to that willingly. I regret it. We finally did see the mask come off. We got out. I went to the older godly men who had warned us and told them they had been right and that we had been wrong to disregard their advice. I told them they were 100% right about their very specific warning. They called it – on the money. They called it – even down to the details. They called it. I just hope that now that so many others are “calling it” that any one still following DP will heed what they hear and not reject the counsel of others, like we did so many years ago.
December 16, 2013 at 10:56 am
Thanks Jen. I appreciate your assurance. As I have stated, though, I have no way of verifying these details. Your essentially saying: take my word for it, I know and have researched these things. But I think there is a temptation/tendency when putting these reports together to sensationalize a little, in order to provide a little better theater. When the writer just states information as fact but doesn’t offer some hard evidence, it makes we wonder what’s true and what’s not.
I understand that pride would get in the way of confessing gulibility with DP. But if this blogsite is going to call him to account, it should first (or at least contemporaneously) confess equally bad-heart motives and spiritual foolishness in following him. My point is, everybody wants to be the victim and have their catharsis and talk and talk (“because we weren’t allowed to talk!”) about it. But I don’t see anyone coming to the realization that their hearts were far from God as well. That’s their responsibility – alone. This is classic victimhood foolishness.
And, for this reason (motive in being an innocent victim), I’m a bit wary of the first matter – absence of corroborated evidence.
December 16, 2013 at 11:20 am
MICK! This spoke volumes and I get what you are trying to say. DP is a cult leader yes, but weren’t his followers also part of it by going with it all? We wanted to “fit into something”. The reason this blog is written is because they were kicked out of something they wanted to fit into and while they were “in” I bet they pointed fingers and judged others who did not believe like they were following DP at the time. This is just DP, BCA and VF did.
I have some experience in this as although we were “following” someone else in a way, (NOT DP) we took on their “traits” if you will and did the finger pointing to other’s that did not believe as we did at the time etc. We distance ourselves from other christians with different view points that we saw “liberal” So in essence we were “leaders” as well and not following God as we should have, deceived or not, we need to own this part of our sins. In a way we all are a part of what has happened (purchasing VF mercandise, pointing fingers at other that did not believe what we did, sharing on social media DP blog posts, etc. yes, we did it too!) We should all repent, I see your point! VERY GOOD ANALOGY.
December 16, 2013 at 11:24 am
below should state, “This is just **what**DP, BCA and VF did and I did the same in a different church setting
December 16, 2013 at 11:27 am
actually above should state…. ugh, sorry its so confusing
December 16, 2013 at 1:25 pm
Mick, as to your concern that our evidence is not corroborated, as I previously stated, but somehow you missed, there are multiple opportunities for people to correct us if we have stated anything incorrectly. And believe, in the community, details matter. When we found that we were off by one year in the film festival hand holding event, we were quickly deluged with comments letting us know we had the year wrong (it is now corrected). So, again, if we are wrong, there are so many people who know the details about this that they are QUICK to let us know if we need to change something. I can tell you that we try very hard to be as exact as possible because not only do operate with integrity, but we want our readers to know that they can fully trust what we are reporting.
As far as me confessing my own gullibility with Doug, have you actually read my story? I think my story clearly shows that I never blindly followed Doug, and that was my own downfall.
December 16, 2013 at 10:54 am
“Let’s take some ownership in the DP failure – we all helped raise him up.” I must strongly disagree. No one “raised up” Doug Phillips to be a narcissistic sociopathic cult leader, unless you want to argue that his father or mother did. I don’t know anything about Peggy (Doug rarely ever mentioned his mother), other than she’s a Roman Catholic. But we do know a great deal about his father. Howard raised Doug to be a Christian political leader, not a cult leader. Right up until his recent death, Howard made a daily habit of reading many newspapers and magazines, clipping articles he felt were important, and mailing them to Doug. Howard forced his son to keep up on world events. In many ways Doug Phillips is a politician, but he chose a rather unconventional constituency for his political platform – home schoolers.
Perhaps Doug Phillips’ parents, in some way, share some of the blame, but it’s hard to say with any certainty. If you know anything about personality disorders you’d know that too much is still uncertain as to what causes them. However, most experts are willing to say that certain personality disorders likely originate from a combination of genetics and earlier childhood environmental factors – “nature and nurture.”
The originating causes of narcissism seem better understand than other personality disorders. For example it’s known that narcissism is a strongly heritable trait, up to a factor of .64 (64%). So do we blame Howard and Peggy for passing along those genes to Doug? (and Brad?) Most parents have passed along some bad genes to their children too. Is that their fault? And if Doug has narcissism genes (if there even is such a thing), does that mean it’s not Doug’s fault that he’s a narcissist? You see where this quickly leads.
David Thomas, in his book Narcissism: Behind the Mask, lists in layman’s language the dominant traits of the typical narcissist. Almost everyone has some narcissistic traits. However, a Narcissist will evidence most, if not all, of the following:
Anyone who knows Doug Phillips personally knows that he fits most of the above criteria all the time, and all of the above criteria at least some of the time.
The same is the case of his meeting the criteria of a Sociopath (or what is now known as Antisocial (Dissocial) Personality Disorder). Doug Phillips meets most, if not all, of the traits of a Sociopath. Even less is known about the originative causes of sociopathy, but it’s assumed that sociopathic personality disorder likely comes from a combination of heritable traits and early childhood environment. However, I’m in no way willing to give Doug Phillips a pass and say, “Poor Doug, He must have had a tough childhood. It’s not his fault he grew up to be a narcissistic sociopathic cult leader.”
Moreover, I find it utterly absurd to say, as you have Mick, “Let’s take some ownership in the DP failure – we all helped raise him up.” That’s going way too far. Now if you mean to say that many thousands of Christian home school families fueled his narcissism by patronizing Vision Forum Inc., and donating millions of dollars annually to Vision Forum Ministries, and giving him standing ovations at conferences, and paying exorbitant fees to go with him on tours, etc., then I would agree with that.
Narcissists need people to feed their massive egos – what is call “narcissism supply.” As such, narcissists like Doug Phillips work hard to be bigger than life, the life of the party, the center of attention. If so many people hadn’t given him that “narcissism supply”, would it have made him any less of a narcissist? In other words, would the narcissism have somehow eventually evaporated to the place where Doug Phillips would have become a normal, sane man. No, that’s not how narcissism works, and it would have not made any difference. As such, it’s false to blame anyone else for Doug’s narcissism.
It is 100% Doug Phillips’ fault and responsibility that he’s a narcissistic sociopath, and it is he, and he alone, who needs to take ownership of that and seek the professional psychiatric help he needs.
As to the many thousands who played a part in Doug Phillips’ “narcissism supply” they do need to take responsibility for that; but this isn’t to say that I believe they bear any significant guilt. All most of them are guilty of is being swindled by a very slick and polished politician. It’s happened to us all. Live and learn.
Sadly, we see plenty of evidence that there are many who won’t live and learn. They’re just moving along to the next home school cult leader where they can be bilked some more.
December 16, 2013 at 11:20 am
TW, I agree with you that DP is a narcissist. It’s 100% his fault (even if you could ascribe contributions from his parents or his wife, etc.). Still his fault, entirely.
And I appreciate your comments about “narcissist supply.”
I would just like to see some humility here and I think that begins with confession. You all (who were part of BCA/VF) were part of the error. Yes, DP gets the Chief Narcissist and Abuser crown. But the rest who stayed there (or anywhere else that has the same pervasive error) for any length and then claim victimhood status get some crowns of your own. The irony of the fools calling the Fooler to account (but offering no self-chastising admissions) is loud and hypocritical.
December 16, 2013 at 11:23 am
yes MICK, YES!! I see the point. See my above comment I posted and I am talking to myself as well!!! very good insight Mick
December 16, 2013 at 12:43 pm
“The irony of the fools calling the Fooler to account (but offering no self-chastising admissions) is loud and hypocritical.” Quite true, and I’m even more troubled by the hypocrisy than you are. However, let’s be careful to not throw everyone under the bus (“You all (who were part of BCA/VF) were part of the error”). Being part of a great error/deception does not necessarily make everyone an accomplice. Not everyone is guilty of hypocrisy in this. In fact I dare say that the majority of VF employees, VF Interns, and BCA members were largely innocent dupes. There are varying degrees of guilt and responsibility. As I’ve stated elsewhere, there are those who bear tremendous guilt and responsibility by actively aiding and abetting Doug Phillips. They are the inner circle of insiders, and they will either own up to their responsibility or I will fully expose them here.
Then there are insiders who didn’t aid and abet Doug Phillips’ evil deeds, and who may or may not have confronted him. Some of these have become valuable intel sources for us. In other words they have become whistle-blowers. Such people have earned our admiration and respect. No one has yet been willing to tell their stories under their own name, but under circumstances like this that isn’t unusual. They have good cause for their anonymity, including retaliation from those who remain members of the BCA cult.
Then there are those insiders who have never confronted Doug and, for whatever reason, also haven’t turned whistle-blower. Some of them even remain as BCA members to this day. Doug has gone down for the count, and he will stay down. The wolf has been de-fanged, yet they remain imprisoned only by their own fears. Anyone who has studied cult psychology knows that most of these people deserve our compassion, not ridicule. It may take them years to recover.
Michael Gobart and Bob Sarratt, however, aren’t among them. They have for years been at the very center of the BCA cult, and to this day they remain at the center of the evil. They crave power and domination over others and unless they repent they will be fully exposed, along with their cultmaster/mentor Doug Phillips.
December 16, 2013 at 12:07 pm
While I certainly do not disagree with your assessment of Doug Phillips to have been a “narcissistic sociopath” the reality is that the “seeds” of this manifested behavior were sown from the very moment that Adam and Eve chose to “become as gods knowing good and evil” (Gen. 3:5). The tendency to grab for power and recognition lies within the depths of the human heart — especially in the case of those who step into the forefront of “leadership” in some capacity. The gradual digression from one who sees himself as a “willing servant” into a “powerful leader” is subtle and occurs over time. Whatever seeds of ambition that were sown into the heart and mind of Doug Phillips envisioned by his father, later fueled his own agenda as the psychological imbalances began to take root in a “religious” rather than “political” arena.
Genetics are related to “tendencies” and not absolutes, especially in matters related to character and personal responsibility. It is proven scientifically that those “abused” often take on the role of an “abuser” thus repeating the cycle from one generation to the next. Is this absolute? Can the cycle be broken? Certainly. But in order to do so, there must be a conscious awareness of the inherent “tendency” that is present to begin with.
The symptomatology of narcissism is well documented and those facts presented by David Thomas in his book are indeed and accurate representation of its effects on both the person (Doug Phillips) and on those who encouraged and fed it through their own willingness to become followers. The idolization of men in positions leadership by others creates an unhealthy environment whereby the “narcissistic sociopath” is empowered to take advantage of others, thus abusing the very purpose intended. What seemed like a “good work” in the hearts and minds of many, became the very catalyst that led to the destruction of his own life, work, family and countless others who now are left to suffer, believing themselves to somehow have contributed to the moral failure.
The apostle Paul warned, “therefore let him who thinks he stands take heed lest he fall” (I Cor. 10:12).
Those in the church at Rome were told, “For I say, through the grace given to me, to everyone who is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think, but to think soberly, as God has dealt to each one a measure of faith” (Rom. 12:3).
Whether this particular scandal involving sexual immorality had been exposed for all the world to see, the certainty is that a time of judgment was on the horizon, because God does not allow these things to continue, hidden in the dark, indefinitely. Israel was warned:
“But if you do not do so, then take note, you have sinned against the LORD; and be sure your sin will find you out.
Build cities for your little ones and folds for your sheep, and do what has proceeded out of your mouth.” (Num. 32:23, 24). They were told that their sin would find them out — be made a public spectacle for all to see. The proper course of action to have avoided this judgment was, “DO what has proceeded out of your mouth” (practice what you preach).
The legacy of the parents of Doug Phillips is not at issue here. Every person is responsible before God for his own life, words and actions in their finality. Those most hurt and affected by this scandal were not responsible for having “raised him up” as someone suggested, because Doug Phillips was a master of self-promotion. Lack of true accountability and the willingness of those closest to Phillips to ‘look the other way’ when their hearts sensed otherwise, certainly contributed to it — not those in the distance whose hearts and motives were pure in following what they perceived to by “the truth”. The responsibility for what has occurred lies at the feet of Doug Phillips himself and in the most intimate places of his own heart. He KNOWS what the Scriptures teach, but chose to condone “sin” in his own life that he would never have tolerated from others.
When one reaches the stage of “becoming as gods knowing good and evil” — he actually begins to believe that the “rules” he makes for others no longer applies to himself. Thus the saga of Jimmy Swaggart, Jim Bakker, Ted Haggard and thousands of other “leaders” who preached against the very sin they themselves were practicing. Even the deepest heartfelt repentance of Doug Phillips will not absolve him from the consequences that will now naturally follow in the wake of the pain and hurt that he has caused both to himself and to others.
This past week, a mega-church leader whose immorality was exposed, Isaac Hunter sadly took his own life in the aftermath of his own sex scandal. The problem is not isolated to Doug Phillips, it is both rampant and an epidemic that plagues religious leaders and churches everywhere.
August 23, 2014 at 2:45 pm
Amen….there is nowhere to run except to the Lord and do a complete facing up to the truth of how God has defined what we need to confess and then seek His strength to turn from our own definitions of what is acceptable and possible to what HE will enable the true repentant to learn to live in HIS strength and to consider all thoughts as we have been instructed to do in order not to bring shame to His name and harm to anyone else.
Rom 12:2 And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.
Just knowing scripture does not guarantee a person will not be overtaken by sinful ideas unless he is seriously concerned about the way God tells us to live our lives for HIS glory and our good.
I believe from having observation and experience striving to walk after the way Jesus Christ instructs us to live and the obstacles and stumbling blocks that have had a way of deterring people who said they loved God and even endeavored to influence others for Christ that the life which has not changed IDENTITY from natural fallen carnal minded living to surrendered new man in Christ will find it difficult to even identify self deceit and thus other deceptions that appeal to the flesh.
Seeker friendly does not always find appeal in the licentious but also in those who seek to live godly but are lacking in knowledge of the truth of the whole of scripture and how it applies and reveals to ourselves what ‘beams’ we have that we do not realize .
As God has said
Hos 4:6 MY people are destroyed for lack of knowledge: because thou hast rejected knowledge, I will also reject thee, that thou shalt be no priest to me: seeing thou hast forgotten the law of thy God, I will also forget thy children.
It is not just the novice babe in Christ that is at risk but even those who know scripture if the foundation has been laid poorly or with lack in terms of overall whole context of Scripture there will be a gap in understanding that willingness to be taught may leave a vulnerability to be deceived by impressions made upon the various areas unarmed by scriptural truth affirmed through study as a Berean .
This may be due to our seeking others who hold Christ high but may not themselves realize the various deceptive doctrines untested in their own lives …but also a lack of respectable consideration of the ways in which even among those who SAY they love God there is room for error in understanding and practice.
We have been warned that in the last days particularly that there will be deceivers who themselves are deceived who will deceive those who are unaware of the ways that this will play out.
Over years of seeking and living and allowing to learn how the various isms work and deceive the greatest deceptions have been found among those who SAY they love God and put forth that they are teachers but whose lives and doctrine are of another “Jesus’ …
Believers are warned and commanded to seek in the Word to test all things by scripture. In cults there is often so much enthusiasm for the ‘work’ of the ministry that the WORK that Jesus Christ affirmed is lost in the shuffle.
Jhn 6:29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.
There is good reason that the first commandment is FIRST and the second is second….people tend to find doing easier than obeying the first commandment. Thus the ‘busyness’ of ‘ministry’ often appeals to novices in the faith and that can lead them into trouble and deceptions of self and others even as they are sincere.
1Ti 3:6 Not a novice, lest being lifted up with pride he fall into the condemnation of the devil.
It has happened so much in the recent years since the Jesus Movement of the 60’s and 70’s …newly born again , zealous but not according to knowledge, excited to impact the world for Christ and accepting any and all who came in His name…thinking which also carried remnants of New Age ideologies into the faith without much having confronted these ideas with scripture…all leading to vulnerability ..and the way our age has been subjected to redefining or rebranding WORDS and vocabulary …as New Age has deliberately taken on the guise of the faith that is Biblical and according to the Lord Jesus Christ….[refer Warren Smiths and others good expositions of this at Lighthouse Trails where they offer many resources for those who need to have this info….]
Homeschooling has been a faith saver for many families but that will not deter the whole culture which is now steeped in the various isms we observe with sorrow and anticipation of the Lord’s working all things according to His will for His glory and our good.
Homeschooling has been as rewarding and fruitful in the lives of those who sought out the reason in scripture and took to heart the purpose of living life according to the way God has provided for whomsoever will and who continues to allow HIS word to lead them.
Those who fall into sin are deceived and have underestimated the way our enemy has been working and allowed to work in the lives of those who surrender to the world , the flesh and the devil OR who have been caught by some area of lack of knowledge by some who claim to know but are teaching for doctrine the commandments of men or some false science so called based upon flesh.
As we are told to continue in His word that we might be HIS disciples indeed we will go through many trials and become equipped through applying HIS word …even as we might become knowledgeable through some deceptions bought without having been equipped with truth in an area but we will not be overcome as we continue to study and put on the whole armor of God as commanded .
I don’t know about the background of some but for myself I have spent the last 46 years seeking in the word and having to find out …playing ‘catch up’ to things that others may have been taught from a child.
We were born into a fallen evil world were we were taught the Humanist doctrines that we are all good and the many things that are not true…we did not know what we did not know!
That is no excuse as the conscience of man knows the things which are right and wrong …and thus there is no excuse for the sins that are committed such as lying , cheating , stealing , adultery and murder …all of which Adultery actually consists of and breaks all ten of the Decalogue.
Yes all have sinned and come short of the glory of GOD and all need the Savior whose life was a ransom for our souls among any who will receive it .
Those who are NOT willing to confess their sin will be unable to justify it or themselves and they need to repent and change and follow Christ…without repentance what can their life become? What can be healed among those hurt?
Each person has an advocate, Jesus Christ the righteous who makes intercession for us night and day as we trust in HIM as our personal Savior.
Giving heed to seducing spirits is one of the things I think we have taken too lightly and there is a need for us to seek truth in the whole of scripture in order to be awakened to the things which so easily sneak in among the sheep.
I sorrow for those who are hurt by this kind of thing and have had my share of being deceived even as I urgently tried to learn the things of God and the truth of scripture and how to apply it rightly ..over many years of this I still continue to learn and seek out correction for my own understanding and life as I live looking forward to His glorious appearing .
I still find it so hard to observe the people who deliberately , with full knowledge do things that they KNOW will hurt and harm even their closest family members.
As my own husband is one who did this …and even had children with the OW while I home schooled our three . I did not know of this for many years! So it is interesting how many time people believe those in close relationships know what is going on …believe it or not …I have a husband who is very intelligent , skillful and charming …and whose conscience became more and more deadened as he turned from the Lord and from fellowship and turned to his business and career where in there was little concern for morality, marriage, and all that my husband has lost in terms of the family he was blessed with.
He lost yet he is still in the darkness of his own thoughts untried or measured by the Word of GOD which he has known.
He admitted his sin but he has not repented in terms of being able to see that his present choices to continue by his own knowledge, feelings and desires will not change anything in truth.
Living by the same carnal mind is the way insanity is defined by some …doing the same thing over and over and expecting a change.
I pray that my Lord who is over all will orchestrate His will in the life of a man who still has to make a choice…yet he is deceived and in bondage to sin presently …may he be delivered …unto saving repentance,.
2Pe 2:19 While they promise them liberty, they themselves are the servants of corruption: for of whom a man is overcome, of the same is he brought in bondage.
Why not …I will place the whole chapter….
2 Peter 2 King James Version (KJV)
2 But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.
2 And many shall follow their pernicious ways; by reason of whom the way of truth shall be evil spoken of.
3 And through covetousness shall they with feigned words make merchandise of you: whose judgment now of a long time lingereth not, and their damnation slumbereth not.
4 For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment;
5 And spared not the old world, but saved Noah the eighth person, a preacher of righteousness, bringing in the flood upon the world of the ungodly;
6 And turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrha into ashes condemned them with an overthrow, making them an ensample unto those that after should live ungodly;
7 And delivered just Lot, vexed with the filthy conversation of the wicked:
8 (For that righteous man dwelling among them, in seeing and hearing, vexed his righteous soul from day to day with their unlawful deeds;)
9 The Lord knoweth how to deliver the godly out of temptations, and to reserve the unjust unto the day of judgment to be punished:
10 But chiefly them that walk after the flesh in the lust of uncleanness, and despise government. Presumptuous are they, selfwilled, they are not afraid to speak evil of dignities.
11 Whereas angels, which are greater in power and might, bring not railing accusation against them before the Lord.
12 But these, as natural brute beasts, made to be taken and destroyed, speak evil of the things that they understand not; and shall utterly perish in their own corruption;
13 And shall receive the reward of unrighteousness, as they that count it pleasure to riot in the day time. Spots they are and blemishes, sporting themselves with their own deceivings while they feast with you;
14 Having eyes full of adultery, and that cannot cease from sin; beguiling unstable souls: an heart they have exercised with covetous practices; cursed children:
15 Which have forsaken the right way, and are gone astray, following the way of Balaam the son of Bosor, who loved the wages of unrighteousness;
16 But was rebuked for his iniquity: the dumb ass speaking with man’s voice forbad the madness of the prophet.
17 These are wells without water, clouds that are carried with a tempest; to whom the mist of darkness is reserved for ever.
18 For when they speak great swelling words of vanity, they allure through the lusts of the flesh, through much wantonness, those that were clean escaped from them who live in error.
19 While they promise them liberty, they themselves are the servants of corruption: for of whom a man is overcome, of the same is he brought in bondage.
20 For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.
21 For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.
22 But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire.
December 16, 2013 at 11:28 am
Mick, My family attended BCA for 2.5 years. I have seen on many occasions, in fact every Sunday that DP was present (which wasn’t regularly) DP flirting with the young lady crowd ranging from ages 16-32. Many of us WERE concerned about it and confronted the girls’ parents who were nonchalant about it all saying, “Oh, my daughter(s) adores DP. They look up to him in a fatherly sort of way. There is nothing wrong with it.” Finally after seeing too much of it, when the elders were approached by concerned members, those members were basically kicked out of the church…all but excommunicated. Long before this scandal broke concerned BCA folks would comment to each other “Do you ever notice how DP never personally speaks to the other men in the church? He surrounds himself with young adoring women.” It was obvious to those who had even an ounce of discernment. But please note, in a situation like the cult-like atmosphere of BCA, people become desensitized to right and wrong in lieu of “honoring and trusting” your leaders. I’ve never seen anything like it before. Looking back it’s really scary, however, in the moment it’s so deceptive that I dare say wrong thinking becomes the norm and you just accept it.
Let me be clear, there HAVE been many who’ve stood up to DP and BCA’s weird ways in the past. But when you take a stand, you’re outta there. You can’t stay and disagree. Those who are still there have been told and reassured they are “the chosen few, the remnant, the faithful ones who are truly honoring to God.”
To everyone who just can’t imagine being fooled by DP, it’s only because you’ve never met him or anyone like him. He has a sort of charisma that is so alluring, so tempting, so deeply influential, that it’s like you’re in a spell when around him. Especially if he’s flattering you, which is how he wins hearts. He says the perfect words that your heart wants to hear and from then on you’re hooked! Bonded to him by the Christian duty of “honor.”
December 16, 2013 at 1:30 pm
December 16, 2013 at 1:32 pm
EyesWideOpen, you describe it all perfectly. Doug Phillips is a perfect “10” on the charm factor, and easily wins people over who are already sitting on the fence with his lifestyle, but who desire holiness in their own lives.
I have been hearing from more and more people who have stood up to Doug. In all but one occasion, Doug not only rebuffed and rebuked those who questioned him in any way, but he often disciplined or bullied them in some way as well.
So, yes, there are Doug Phillips’ worshipers who are lost without their idol right now, but there were also those who questioned, opposed, or simply walked away through all the years as well.
December 16, 2013 at 1:34 pm
Thanks EWO, I appreciate the information.
And I appreciate everyone who has confessed their foolishness. I know that’s not easy. I saw DP from a distance and was somewhat mesmerized as well. I believe you that his charisma/charm were powerful and alluring. I would like to say, though, that the power of the Holy Spirit is far more powerful.
TW mentions throwing some under the the DP/BCA debacle bus. What I would like to reiterate is that those innocent “dupes” were believing in wrong things, and that’s why they were susceptible to the allurement of DP. I am guessing they were dedicated to the FIC-is-the-only-way legalism or similar kinds of things. Therefore, purposesly pre-disposing themselves to man-worship (i.e., legalism), they were easy prey for DP/BCA. That’s why I’m a little less sympathetic to their “victimhood” and asking them to own up. Maybe they still believe the error, but just didn’t like the fruition of it in DP/BCA. Maybe that’s why they don’t confess – because they’re still trying to make sense of their error.
I confess that I was pre-disposing myself to this foolish error, too. Thank God my foolishness did not produce the fruit of greater error and I turned to God again, and my eyes were open and I repented.
December 16, 2013 at 1:56 pm
Mick, I have never been one to use “guilt-by-association.” There were many people over the years who did not idolize Doug and who opposed or questioned what he was doing or teaching. Some stayed longer than others, attempting to work with Doug on certain issues. At the time, certain people truly felt like they might be able to come to some sort of biblical agreement on various matters, but in the end, that didn’t happen. For those who did stand up to him at any time, and in any way, I applaud them.
For the others, I pray that they will do some self-reflection to discover why they were so easily led astray, and do what is necessary to keep that from happening again. For many Americans, thinking for themselves is outside their comfort zone. It is much easier to have a charismatic, persuasive leader/teacher do all your studying and thinking for you. For those folks, I pray that they will learn to think for themselves, and study God’s Word for themselves.
December 17, 2013 at 8:48 am
Except for understanding that everyone posting here is a sinner, I would not believe how judgmental some are here on those that attended BCA, or still attend there. The Scriptures have plenty of warnings for you. Many of us came to BCA for wholesome reasons and left once we were convinced that the place was not “wholesome”. How dare you judge any of us as “dupes” or anything of the sort. Some of us, once we realized things were not right, desired to try and help “our” church correct course. Do you fault us for staying for a season to try and accomplish that? As Jen and others have stated, not everyone at BCA is/was complicit in Phillips’ behavior along with his hatchet men: Sarratt and Gobart, among a few others. Some of us truly cared about Phillips, Sarratt, Gobart, and all of the others at BCA and we did confront people, etc. To listen to some of you selfrighteous ones, we were in error, but I would suggest you examine your own heart.
The way some people brag about their own righteousness on here is something else. When I read such self-righteous nonsense where folks try to distance themselves from BCA by claiming things such as ‘we are in a FIC but our ladies wear pants”, or “our children go to public schools” it all makes me want to barth, to put it bluntly. Be careful what you brag about. I wouldn’t be bragging about sending my children off to be indoctrinated by the secular humanists and condemning all of the people (past, present, future) at BCA at the same time. Sickening!
December 19, 2013 at 7:50 am
Bob, if you think people HERE are being judgemental, oh my gosh, you should read other blogs. There is one that I tried to read that was so mean spirited I just could not stomach it. The level of vitriol was disgusting. Comparing the blogs, I believe the majority of this one is balanced between supporting victims of past abuse and exposing DP and the damage that he and others do. And it is being done with a sweet spirit. Sometimes there are some stern comments, but they are necessary.
And Hugh, if you don’t want to believe what is written on this blog without knowing who TW is, move on. I personally read blogs at CNN, Fox, Huffington Post, Christianity Today, The Christian Post, Israel Hyome,etc…I never expect everything single I read to be the exact truth, even when I’m reading on a site that has a huge legal dept to back it up. Me thinks you doth protest too much and me wonders why.
December 17, 2013 at 9:31 am
Bob, I agree with you that not everyone who attended BCA needs to fess up. What I am saying is that those running around claiming to be victims of the abuse, need also to admit their complicity in submitting to that authority. If you came for wholesome (I assume you mean godly) reasons, amen. And if you left when you could see it wasn’t godly, even better.
But you also implied that you stayed to try to correct BCA. That’s sounds noble. I’ve tried to do those kinds of things too and, after they failed, I realized two things: 1) it was a bit presumptuous of me to think I could really correct things; and 2) the Lord hadn’t called me to that task. My conclusion was that I was enjoying the fray, enjoying the theological fight (i.e., in the flesh) in the “name” of Christ. This, in a nutshell, is the heart of legalism (spiritual on the outside, flesh on the inside).
The other thing I’d like to say is that I am questioning the “wholesomeness” of the movement. Yes, like anything in error, there is plenty of truth mixed in. The truth: the culture is rotting, our churches are slouching to a secularist/sacred duality, our kids are falling away from the faith. The FIC is supposed to be biblically based, real Christian fellowship and real Christian serving. But the reality I have seen in a number of these churches is that the focus becomes – homeschooling is the only way; frumpy dress is the only way; rock music is frowned upon etc., etc. And the irony, still a lot of young folks from these FICs are falling away. I am sure there are some FICs that are full of humility, liberty and charity – in a word: Christ. But I’m guessing those are the exceptions.
What we really need is a movement of the Holy Spirit – real revival. That’s only going to happen when our hearts are in a humble place. And when that comes, we will hardly care about ankle-length skirts, bass guitars and drums and Reformed Covenant theology. All we’ll really care about is Him and the brothers and the sisters.
December 17, 2013 at 5:23 pm
You may have stayed at a church longer than you should have, etc. but be careful to not impose your own experience on others and set that as the standard for others. Many times God has used folks that stayed in a less than desirable church to bring about needed change. To suggest that people stay only for personal and selfish reasons is not fair or accurate. This may be the case for some, but be careful you don’t attribute this to everyone.
December 16, 2013 at 10:53 pm
Eyes Wide Open: I sadly, can completely relate to everything you’ve stated above. Sick, but sad. Prayers the TRUTH will be made known so no one else can be hurt by this “movement”. May the Lord help & humble us all.
December 17, 2013 at 9:14 am
What does Doug teach on “the Christian duty of honor? By listening to some of his followers, I suspect it is one of those words that non-cult members hear something good in, which get a special meaning inside the cult that outsiders would not agree with.
December 16, 2013 at 11:40 am
After reading about this situation, and others, I have reached a few conclusions:
1) Avoid just about everything with “Ministries” in its title
2) Avoid all the new movements and -isms
3) Be very cautious around “charismatic” people.
4) If someone or some thing is too good to be true, it probably isn’t
5) Watch pastors and leaders like a hawk.
December 16, 2013 at 1:34 pm
Keith, in other words, be wise as serpents and gentle as doves. 🙂
December 16, 2013 at 4:31 pm
Mick: I do. But I don’t just pray. Jen’s comment re: wise as serpents bears emphasis.
December 16, 2013 at 1:38 pm
How about reading your Bible with a humble heart, praying for wisdom and caring for the least of these around you? That might work better.
December 16, 2013 at 2:57 pm
One has to be careful of an overreaction when these sorts of situations arise. Not everything called a “ministry” represents an attempt at abuse. Not every “movement” is misguided or misdirected. Not all “charismatic” people are laying in wait to take advantage of others. Some things that appear “too good to be true” are suspect, but not ALL. MOST Pastors and leaders of godly men whose lives are devoted to what is in the best interest of helping and serving others in their devotion to the Lord. Certainly everyone has the responsibility to “prove all things, hold fast that which is good” (I Thess. 5:17).
It is easy to become negative and even cynical when the failure of others becomes evident. However, it is necessary for each person to remain vigilant in not allowing the irresponsible actions of others “taint” our perspective when it comes to those who are trying to do what is beneficial.
Every venue of life provides the opportunity for a variety of abusive situations to occur. It happens in homes and families where husbands and wives become verbally and sometimes physically abusive towards each other. It happens in the business world where those entrusted with responsibility use their power and influence to the detriment of their employees or customers. It CAN happen anywhere to anyone at anytime.
Trusting God involves knowing that HE uncovers and exposes the abuses of people and that HE is able to bring down those who lift themselves up and exalt themselves. The Bible explicitly tells believers who pay attention to those in leadership and also warns about those who abuse that leadership (See Acts 20:29-31; II Tim. 3:5-7).
December 16, 2013 at 4:29 pm
I understand what you are saying, but it conflicts with my experience in Reformed circles. Perhaps this is true of the church at large. Anyway, when I hear of a “new’ movement my guard is up. “Parachurch” also makes me cautious.
We have the church, so why have all these parachurch organisations?
As regards “charismatic” people, I have always been cautious. If someone is too “slick”, I get nervous. Slick plus “buy this book, tape etc.” really sets off the alarm bells.
And I do watch pastors closely. Historically, apostasy always seems to start with the clergy. Would the VF/BCA situation have been less likely if the Elders were more assertive? My current church has a good, honest pastor. he won’t steal your wallet, or pinch your wife’s bottom. He is not perfect, but he certainly is not “slick”. I only stay in this church because of the pastor and the families who are there, plus the fact that the nearest LCMS or WELS church is over an hour away. My experience with Reformed pastors so far has been that only one out of our last three worked out. The first was a bit of a tyrant (pastoral relationship dissolved because he opposed Christmas and other issues), the second was “not a one-woman man” (his words) and only in these last years have we had a good one. Anyway, thanks for letting me rant.
December 16, 2013 at 11:20 pm
Lighten up. We Christians have such a tendency to be hyper spiritual. Sounded like he was being funny to me. Keith, I got the humor of your post!
December 17, 2013 at 5:12 am
Lisa: thanks! There was some humor in it, but also a lot of seriousness. And i do agree with Larry Siegle that abuse of authority occurs in all areas of life. I just happen to be one who thinks that it is especially bad when committed by a pastor. There are some ‘parachurch” groups that are worthy of support.
December 16, 2013 at 8:55 pm
How about, just follow God and not MAN. ONLY A RELATIONSHIP WITH JESUS will satisfy. All the Truth you need to know is in the Bible. Be like the Bereans and search God’s Word daily so you don’t fall prey to deceptive teaching. It is not about people or religion!!!
December 16, 2013 at 11:44 am
Hello all, I’m just another Lurker-turned-Poster. No matter your position on the information posted here, I must say it has absolutely helped our family to see the truth in this Pharisaical way of life. I’m not going to get into my family’s entire background with all of this, but we’re definitely not VF *Royalty*. We do attend a Family-Integrated Church, but it is not like the ones associated with VF. Members (and YES, that includes WOMEN!!) pray aloud in church, vote, wear pants to church, have children in public school, celebrate Christmas, actually evangelize outside of the family, go to college, use birth control, eat processed food, listen to preaching from the New Testament, work secular jobs (each of our Pastors’ wives work outside the home), and the list goes on. I would say the only difference between our FIC and regular “mainline” churches is that we do not have nursery or a youth group. The patriarchy thing is NOT preached or practiced in our church. It seems there are two schools of FICs, but this is not the thread on which to discuss all of that. ‘Nuff said.
My friend, “Bob,” was on the Greece Cruise. According to Bob, Dr. Moorecraft was scheduled to speak and was only “surprised” to have to speak at ONE session. Dr. Moorecraft was given notice of this speaking engagement at breakfast, the day of the surprise talk, in front of the entire group, by Doug Phillips. There are accounts I’ve read that state Dr. Moorecraft had to speak on a whim at *half* the sessions on the cruise. As stated by Bob, this is simply not true. Doug Phillips spoke at each session and had prepared notes, etc. for each. I’m not necessarily sticking up for Doug Phillips here. I just wanted to clarify the speculation about the speaking sessions.
Another associate of mine, “Eduardo,” recently had a chat with Scott Brown. During that conversation, Eduardo relayed that Scott Brown indeed said the internet rumors are TRUE. That’s a weighty statement in my book.
Take what you will from these comments since they are all third-party information. I am simply stating what others told me, and I have no way to prove any of what a few people I know saw/heard. I have no need to post these comments other than that I feel the whole truth needs to be out in the open. This demise of VF and Doug Phillips affects more people than we can imagine. Even people like us, who are just occasional users of VF material, have been terribly upset by all of this.
December 16, 2013 at 12:44 pm
Which internet rumours?
There are lots of them with regards to Doug Phillips. But I suppose the two most prominent ones are that 1) he is gay, and 2) that he is a polygamist.
These seem not entirely compatible to me.
Honestly, I always thought he was a homosexual but with all the discussion of his continual flirting with women from ages 16 to 32, I have had to re-consider that he was a womanizer.
(Or else his coverup is especially elaborate).
December 16, 2013 at 12:59 pm
I’m glad you’re reconsidering your beliefs that Doug Phillips is gay. As I’ve said before there is no testimonial evidence to support that suspicion. The fact that he loves dress-up parties, etc. is little support for such notions. Furthermore, although Doug is rather touchy-feely with the boys, he tends to be that way with everyone.
To clarify his “continual flirting with women from ages 16 to 32”, my observation is that he flirts with girls even much younger than 16. Grooming?
December 16, 2013 at 1:23 pm
I would only note one point which though politically incorrect is consistent with my experience. Hatred of women and a love for totalitarian politics has in my experience often accompanied homosexuality. To me, he fit a pattern which I have observed.
But he also fits the pattern that is the theme here, obviously. While he does hate women, he also wants to use them as objects for his personal egotistical and physical gratification.
December 16, 2013 at 3:07 pm
Was it your experience to have observed this “continual flirting with women from ages 16 to 32” or is that based upon the observation and testimony of others?
As one who served as a Youth Pastor in my early years of ministry, I remember the sorts of playful teasing that I observed from some of the male adults who were involved in the group, but without any seeming intent that was untoward in my experience. Most were treating the girls in the girls with respect and as a father would relate to his own daughter. Obviously this is not always the case. “Grooming” someone for some sort of sexual gratification is wrong on every level and preparing them to be “used” benefit.
It is sometimes difficult to ascertain the motives of another until the offense takes place — unfortunately.
December 16, 2013 at 3:32 pm
Larry, I have personally witnessed Doug Phillips’ flirtations with the girls several times. Anyone who has spent any time around him at, say, a home school conference has witnessed it. He’s flirted thousands of times, right in front of thousands of witnesses. Why didn’t anybody notice it before? I can assure you that many parents are questioning themselves over that very matter right now. What once would have been an innocent smile, and taking special interest in my daughter(s), is now being viewed as the leering of a lecher. That’s the difference that our presuppositions hold over us.
I agree that it’s often difficult to ascertain another person’s intentions. None of us are mind readers. Yet, there are often clear warning signs and, sadly, they are too easily overlooked, especially when we view someone through the presuppositional bias of “He’s such a godly and righteous man”, as too many have had for Doug Phillips. If anyone at those home school conferences had know that Doug Phillips was cheating on his wife with a young lady that he had spent years grooming they wouldn’t have let their daughters anywhere near him.
December 16, 2013 at 3:44 pm
I’ve seen the constant flirting and touching that DP does with different young ladies (both his daughters and others) in several different videos and photographs, and it makes my skin crawl. :p If my husband constantly touched and “petted”, and repeatedly kissed, our daughters that way (even at home, not only in public), I would be very vocal about how inappropriate it is… let alone anyone NOT our daughters!
December 16, 2013 at 11:28 pm
And considering the Elsie books, Pre Civil War culture and Victorian manners, Doug should hv known to remain somewhat staid and rigid (formal) in his conduct with the opposite sex.
December 16, 2013 at 4:50 pm
The sad reality is that in many homes, the father shows very little affection for his children. I have two wonderful daughters and a son. They have no “daddy issues” in seeking the love and approval from men because of something that was decidedly lacking at home. Many young women sustain dysfunctional relationships with men based upon their craving for the love and acceptance of their father — many of these situations I have witnessed personally.
Nobody has ever questioned the attentiveness or affections for my daughters as inappropriate in any way. Likewise, with other children who were entrusted into my care and keeping. The proper attention given to children is an important component that lacking by neglectful fathers who believe their responsibility ends with bringing home the paycheck every week. While the relationship between DP and “Cassandra” certainly extended beyond anything that could be deemed good and wholesome, this does not necessarily imply that his intentions were incestuous toward his own biological daughters simply because he had been affectionate toward them.
The father-daughter relationship, when properly protected is crucial to the proper psychological development of the child. Likewise, the mother-son relationship, when properly protected teaches the child how to have a wholesome and healthy relationship with women later in life — rather than the cultural denigration and objectification (e.g.calling them the “B” word) of women so common in our society today.
Every role and relationship in life has certain “boundaries” that must be respected and sustained in order to have a healthy, happy and wholesome life. Many marriages end in divorce because one or both of those involved did not have the opportunity for the proper environment for development when they were children. Adulthood is often a mirror reflection of the lack of what should have been present during our childhood.
I was raised in a family where my mother died when I was eight and my father died when I was twelve. I carried the scars and feeling of rejection and abandonment into my adult life and it has cost me dearly. Only recently have I begun to explore the process through which healing is possible and to practice those things that will result in better relationships in the future.
December 16, 2013 at 8:32 pm
Larry, I’m not quite sure whether your response to me is intended to “educate” me, or to simply share what you’ve learned. If the former, I assure you that I’m very aware of all that you said, having been raised by an abusive adopted father after having lost my bio father to suicide. I know ALL about the feeling of rejection and loneliness. I’ve done the research, the intensive prayer, the reading and counseling, and the healing, and my husband has done a great deal to learn how to be a truly *good* father. I am quite aware of what constitutes a “healthy” father-daughter relationship. And yet, I still think it’s inappropriate for DP to continuously “pet” his female children as MUCH as he does. Showing affection is one thing; continuous petting and kissing is quite another. (IMO)
I did not say, or even mean to imply, that DP’s relationships with his daughters are “incestuous”. It never crossed my mind that he had s*x with them (if that’s what you mean by incestuous). I just said that the *level* of affection that he openly displays is inappropriate… and makes MY skin crawl. It LOOKS like flirting…. Especially when he does it with women and girls to which he’s not related. As a parent, I would NOT want him touching my daughter(s) that way. Our own pastor is a very affectionate and caring person, but he’s quite aware that there are proper boundaries where young ladies are concerned. Side hugs and hand shakes upon greeting someone is quite acceptable. Anything beyond that can too easily raise eyebrows, draw the wrong kind of attention, cause a young girl to perceive it as “something special”, etc.
If your intent was merely to share your story, then perhaps your words will help someone here. I’m glad that you’ve found healing, and thank you for your concern.
December 16, 2013 at 10:17 pm
No attempts on my part to educate anyone 🙂
All of us have our own story and every story has meaning. I am glad you were blessed with a loving husband and father as also are your children.
December 16, 2013 at 1:10 pm
I can only tell you that the “internet rumors” spoken about in the conversation I had with Eduardo were regarding the articles posted on THIS specific blog: jensgems.wordpress.com. Not the comments, not other blogs, just the articles here written by both Jen and TW. There was ABSOLUTELY NO MENTION OR INDICATION of Doug Phillips being either a homosexual or polygamist in any conversation I had. As far as what Scott Brown actually meant, I cannot tell you that because I have never spoken to Scott Brown and I’m simply relaying what I was told by someone I know.
December 16, 2013 at 1:19 pm
I guess I do not consider what is posted here as being in the category of rumours. Those other items that I mentioned, those are rumours because they are speculative.
But the stuff here is fact.
December 16, 2013 at 1:48 pm
Dr. Postulate, again, thank you very much for telling us that Scott Brown affirms that the articles written here are true. We do try very hard to make sure they are factually accurate. That is really good to hear, but very sad to hear as well.
December 16, 2013 at 1:39 pm
Dr. Postulate, welcome! Thank you for clarifying some things. It is important to get the details right. More importantly, if Scott Brown says these “rumors” are true, then they aren’t really rumors, are they? 🙂
I am glad to hear that your church did not travel down the patriarchy path, but has held to its own standards. I would like to address FIC one of these days, and I would love to hear more about your church at that time.
Thanks for all your “help!”
December 16, 2013 at 1:44 pm
That’s where I would be careful. We don’t know “Eduardo” and even if we knew him personally and liked him very much, that wouldn’t necessarily verify what he wrote. I think this is the kind of caution that needs to be taken. Not that you were going to state it as fact, Jen – but its where the waters get murky. 🙂
TW said he knows Scott Brown reads this blog. I’m wondering how he knows…
December 16, 2013 at 1:51 pm
The patriarchy world is a very small world. 🙂
December 16, 2013 at 1:59 pm
I do understand that and I’m only hoping to encourage caution. If you don’t know Dr. P and Eduardo both, I’d just wouldn’t assume anything. I think that’s where readers get wary. I personally wouldn’t doubt it, I just wouldn’t state it as fact. I think that’s where the critics sensibly say, “Wait a minute…” 🙂
December 16, 2013 at 2:54 pm
oneh20, I agree. It is just that we get tons of responses, both private and public, and so far, not ONE has that we are not telling the truth. If we were barraged with those type of comments, then that would be significant indeed. But the truth is that all the responses we receive, from those in the know, simply corroborate what we have stated.
December 16, 2013 at 9:33 pm
Dr Postulate, I have first had information that indicates the VFM board became aware of the scandal on Nov. 9 and proceeded to take immediate action “We acted immediately to cut off Doug’s activity and opportunity and Made public what we knew.” Are you saying Doug purposely spoke in Greece after being instructed not to?
December 16, 2013 at 9:53 pm
Absolutely not. Check out the following link that states the 2013 Ancient Greece Tour was held in September:
December 16, 2013 at 10:31 pm
Don, I’m pretty sure you meant to say September 9. Is that the case?
December 17, 2013 at 5:27 am
My apologies, my bedtime is normally 9:) yes, I meant to say the VFM board was first made aware of the scandal on Sept 9th, which would seem to me plenty of time to have removed Doug from the schedule in Greece. Especially in light of one of the board members telling me directly that the board took immediate action.
December 17, 2013 at 8:30 am
Thanks Don. I’ve sometimes had difficulty keeping the chronology straight myself. There’s a lot to have to remember here.
I’m skeptical that Scott Brown and the VFM board of directors only found out about Doug Phillips’ philandering on September 9, 2013. I have reason to believe they knew of it for much longer than that and did absolutely nothing about it. September 9 was only the We’ve got to do something about this before crazy Doug takes us all down with him date.
In any event, Doug was told by the board of directors he could still take his family to Greece, all at VFM donor expense (what a terrible punishment) but he wasn’t permitted to speak there. As to whether or not he actually did speak once there remains debatable.
December 17, 2013 at 11:38 am
“As to whether or not he actually did speak once there remains debatable.”
Might depend on our definition of “speak”. I have seen the one photo of him in front of the group talking– but maybe he was talking history or tour logistics and not theology/religion.
December 17, 2013 at 12:29 pm
knowing, as I do, how close these men are to each other I also thought they must have known before September. But I assure you from firsthand testimony, I was told that until Doug came to them they didn’t even hear rumors.
Regarding the trip to Greece, perhaps the trip was bought and paid for before the board found out about the scandal, I can’t see Scott agreeing to spend donated money after they learned the ugly truth.
December 17, 2013 at 12:37 pm
If Brown had no suspicions– as close as they were for so long– what’s that say about his discernment? I just was looking at the BCA website to see if they still had nasty stuff up about Jen, and linked to a picture from 2002. There were Beall and all the kids visiting in the Brown’s house– including “Cassandra”!
December 17, 2013 at 1:03 pm
Is that link still active?
December 17, 2013 at 4:27 pm
You mean this? http://www.boernechristianassembly.org/elders.html
I wonder if my excommunication is still in effect?
December 17, 2013 at 3:04 pm
Turkey, I think suspicions would be in a different category than knowledge or even rumors. I suppose many are looking back now and wondering if they had acted on suspicions a long time ago if things would be different today.
The whole idea of discernment (or lack thereof) is something I believe needs to be addressed. Hopefully this will happen at the church level when people come to realize they have been led to into death valley rather than green pastures. Any church leader who fell into following this man and encouraging others to ought to be begging forgiveness of his church and pledging a full investigation as to why it could have happen.
December 17, 2013 at 7:44 pm
“Is that link still active?”
I think you mean to the family picture. Yes– taken in 2002 and posted by DP in 2007. And, like so many things he’s posted, not taken down in the last 10 months. More pressing concerns, perhaps?
December 17, 2013 at 8:20 pm
Turkey, yes I was referring to the photo which I still cannot find. I’ve been googling images lately and come up with a lot of broken links. Wonder why?
December 17, 2013 at 9:29 pm
If you find broken links, and you want to keep them, you’d better download them while you can!
December 17, 2013 at 9:40 pm
Grace, perhaps this is what you’re looking for? http://www.visionforumministries.org/issues/uniting_church_and_family/our_church_youth_group.aspx
December 17, 2013 at 10:02 pm
Yes, Donna, I found that one finally. But there are lots of pics on his blog archives that are removed. Various other broken links pointing to his blog from VF followers–mostly teen girls who attended VF conferences, intern weddings, etc. The girls were so excited to have pics taken with DP’s daughter or nanny or other featured VF person. So sad.
December 16, 2013 at 1:01 pm
TW – What about Scott Brown. Do you think he has aided and abetted?
December 16, 2013 at 1:15 pm
I know that Scott Brown reads this blog, so I’m not going to tip my hand as to what I know about him and what my intentions are toward him, at his time. Let’s just say I’m very concerned about not just his past history, but also his intentions of picking up where Doug Phillips left off. The same goes for his partner in crime son-in-law, who most definitely directly aided and abetted Doug Phillips for years. He especially has a lot to answer for, and his recent Facebook postings are little more than CYA.
December 17, 2013 at 4:54 pm
… the senior league of the inner circle found out about AN extramarrital affair some time ago and took first action to solve it internally.
…. in September they realized that it was not (or not only ) with a woman but -atomic catastrophy level- with men of the junior inner circle?
….then a vicious damage-control actionism kicked in, and a cover-up scapegoat ( herein referred to as C.) was built up or focused on to deviate attention from the outmost to the second worst.
… sending the family to Greece was one purposeful measure to meanwhile sort out how to save the other families from being swept away by the blast, set up the cover story and remove evidence (persons and words ).
Why to mention this here? Perhaps the answers will give more clues.
December 17, 2013 at 4:59 pm
Iohmo, I am fairly confident that is the case indeed, more or less. There are many who believe that “Cassandra” is merely a cover story for what really did happen. However, the Greece trip was long planned, so it may have just been the tool used for hiding whatever evidence needed to be disposed of.
December 17, 2013 at 5:06 pm
I had thought that for a while, but when I posted yesterday that I had long suspected that Phillips was gay, TW Eston discouraged that.
Now…again…I’m not so sure.
December 17, 2013 at 5:08 pm
I am not saying WHAT they are covering up, only that I strongly suspect a cover-up of some sort.
December 17, 2013 at 5:11 pm
But if you just think about it objectively (ie, what could be worse than an affair with the live in unpaid help), what would that be? So understood, we don’t know what they are covering up.
But if there is a cover up, and THIS is their strategy….it must be something rather huge. In my mind, that could really only be what has been speculated by ihmo, or a pregnancy.
December 17, 2013 at 5:14 pm
Whoa. Has anything like this been told to you, Jen and TW? Can you imagine the backlash if this was true?
December 17, 2013 at 6:22 pm
Mrs. W, when I first read Doug’s statement of resignation (which was NOT a statement of repentance), it seemed to me that, considering all the horrific things I KNOW Doug has done, if he were to resign from his life’s dream, his life’s goal, his life’s work, that it HAD to be more than just an inappropriate, non-sexual relationship. I mean, the man thought NOTHING of Jennifer Grady having multiple inappropriate, non-sexual relationships with men of all ages at church, and sexual relationships to boot! So, if he refused to discipline Jennifer Grady for actions FAR WORSE than what he “confesses” to, I was immediately suspicious of what the real reason might be. Although we told this story about Cassandra, I do believe this is merely a cover story. And while we may never know what is being covered up, there are SO many stories about Doug Phillips’ aberrant behavior as a Christian ministry leader that I think the abundance of stories will be enough to keep him from abusing others, at least to this magnitude, again.
December 17, 2013 at 5:32 pm
Maybe this explains this comment here
December 14, 2013 at 7:39 am
Rachel, I can assure you that Cassandra is not concerned with hiding her identity, although she is not coming out for other reasons, she also has stated she doesn’t care if people know it’s her.
That certainly would make since for a cover up……….I certainly can not figure out why C does not care who knows who she is.
December 17, 2013 at 8:44 pm
The biggest problem overall would be misuse of funds. When people lose faith in one ministry, other ministries often suffer. And while you may come back from an “affair” (they probably never figured people would go the clergy sexual abuse route), it is much harder to get people to later trust you with their money if you’ve used it for personal gain.
December 18, 2013 at 2:48 am
Thanks Jen for picking up this thread. The point of bringing this topic again is not to add some chilli to the drama, but to gently turn attention to another possible victim: a potentially long-time consensually closeted male partner (same pattern of education-based vulnerability to silent abuse applies), who was deeply hurt and about to come out when called “a woman” but then financially or morally blackmailed and quieted back into the closet.
Uncovering such story, if it happens to be like this, would help to lift the lid and allow this person, first of all to go through well-deserved public hell for the collaboration in joint family & friends deceipt. But afterwards, if encouraged and supported, he could become a prominent arrow to pull other like-natured out of the homophobic quivers into another world, where “not knowing each other in the biblical sense” doesn’t harm themselves and others that much.
December 18, 2013 at 11:45 am
lohmo, I really have no idea if that is the case or not, but I truly believe that “Cassandra” is just a cover story.
December 18, 2013 at 1:57 pm
It makes sense that Cassandra would be a cover story. They don’t want to destroy their own dynasty ($$$), but DP messed it all up for them (perhaps multiple infidelities, perhaps tax fraud, perhaps embezzlement, and who knows what all), so leaking just a *little* infidelity and feigned repentance gives them a reason to make DP disappear from his followers’ view, while keeping at least a portion of the followers (remember when it first broke and many of his fans were comparing him to David and wanted to carry on as if nothing bad had happened?), and giving them time to quietly re-work the plan from the inside.
Is that close?
December 18, 2013 at 4:24 pm
Okay…this is getting ABSURD. I get that it’s hard to run an effective anti-DP blog when there’s a lack of compelling updates rolling into the factory, but this is ridiculous.
Do you really think that “Cassandra’s” father would feel warmly to his daughter being accused of fornication–accomplice to adultery–just to protect DP? You think her brother would go along with this? Jen, you’ve been in this industry long enough to know that this level of scandal can ruin the reputation of an entire family. let alone future marital prospects.
You also realize that this level of speculation in the public domain and some of the unfounded claims against DP do now qualify for libel? I’m sure DP is guilty of all sort of interesting sins, but as it is, you have no tangible proof and this blog is posting all sorts of contradictory nonsense from engagement promises to possibilities of financial fraud, and the weepy victimization of a woman who is now being poised as the Katie Holmes of his secretly gay gallivanting life??
The idea of Doug Phillips being gay wouldn’t come as a shock to even half of his critics, but it does seem to go against several commenter’s tales of needing to keep their young daughters out of his line of site. So which is it now? Which direction are you running with? DP the pedophile? DP the homosexual train wreck? At this point DP would need to have sex with barn animals or space aliens to keep your readers wide eyed.
So please, everyone. Stop speculating. If you have hard evidence, and it needs to be posted to protect the souls of millions or at least keep us interested for the next five minutes, do so. But if you don’t have any of that “pesky evidence” stuff, buy yourself a copy of 50 Shades of Grey. Read it seven times and bathe in a river…
I’d proofread this comment, but at this point I’d be giving my own writing more attention than those who blog for this site.
December 18, 2013 at 4:29 pm
Nony, I agree with you that anything outside of proof is speculation. What we report in our articles is factual, based upon multiple witnesses.
I also agree that speculation outside of that is not helpful. Do I believe this is merely a cover story? Yes, I do. Do I know what is being covered up? Not at this time.
The only direction we are going here is where the EVIDENCE leads us. The evidence is posted in the articles.
December 18, 2013 at 4:43 pm
Nony, I agree and I’ve said so previously here and here. With over 850 comments in this thread it’s pretty much impossible for us to keep up on every comment. But if need be I will go back and start deleting comments of that nature. So please, no more Doug Phillips may be gay speculating here. Keep such opinions to yourselves.
December 18, 2013 at 4:46 pm
December 18, 2013 at 8:26 pm
Remember that most of the speculation is going on in the comments , not in the articles. I don’t think that will
qualify as libel. Also, no one is suggesting that “Cassandra’s ” family was a part of the cover up.
December 18, 2013 at 5:00 pm
I know you indirectly. So, whether or not you can believe this, I’d like to root for you. Just a little. Mainly because, if stranded on an uncharted isle, you’d be more fun that Doug Phillips. You are making the fall of DP “fun” if not misleadingly salacious. All that aside:
Hearsay is not admissible in court. You’d need to have multiple witness who are willing to reveal their identities and have stories that perfectly mirror each other in order to use their testimonies as evidence. As it is, the contradictory information in this blog reveals very little that anyone could consider evidence. This is why people are speculating. People don’t need to speculate when their are clear concise facts. You cannot tell your readers to “trust me because I spoke to a lot of people who are in the know!” because (1) they don’t trust you or shouldn’t because there’s no sources quoted (2) it’s still hearsay.
The only clear evidence anyone has at this time is that a man–whose understanding of ecclesiastical practice and blatant worship of an era when there was no running water or penicillin should have already damned him to the lowest circle of silence–is now claiming to have had an affair, and has sufficiently resigned. His business is closing. His close circle of friends are distancing themselves from him and producing a few veiled or spurned facebook rants.
An angry and unconfirmed neighbor on SpiritualSoundingBoard claiming that Doug Phillips’ behavior was enough to lower their property value is no more evidence than Cassandra’s “engagement ring”.
The facts are very slim and I suspect that those involved are going to keep it this way for a very long time.
December 18, 2013 at 5:42 pm
Nony, this isn’t a newspaper. This is a blog. And it is only slander if the authors knowingly wrote false information. If they believe it is true, it isn’t slander, in a court of law that is.
December 18, 2013 at 6:14 pm
Slander must also be done in malice. I can guarantee you that neither TW nor I have any malice toward Doug. Rather, we would love to see him repent and turn his heart toward the Lord. However, since we do not see those things happening, we will continue to report what needs to be reported.
It would be FAR better for Doug if he were to come clean himself. Far better.
December 18, 2013 at 6:05 pm
That is incorrect. First of all, this is a potential libel case, not slander. Secondly, these days you can make a libel case over a bad yelp review if it can be proved that false information has been spread that may damage a person’s business or livelihood.
Allowing for speculation regarding underage sex, victimization, homosexuality in a community that reviles such, or the purposeful indulgence of information that could again, damage a business or reputation/livelihood can result in a libel case. I doubt, at this moment, DP even has the time to deal with such. But in the interests of being careful, it wouldn’t hurt to ensure that any information that has not been thoroughly investigated and cannot be backed up by clear evidence in a court of law, be discouraged and or wiped from this blog, a blog which is currently making itself the target of both hilarity and criticism.
December 18, 2013 at 6:12 pm
Nony, I am glad you obviously have a great sense of humor regarding Doug’s “desert island challenge.” 🙂
This is not a court of law, nor do I pretend it is. However, I consider my purpose here to currently be that of one reporting when I hear the same facts from multiple sources who each contact me individually. When we post these articles, while we are very careful to present the material as factually accurate as possible, the parts that I did not personally witness are always open to refutation. However, what ends up happening is that we receive more private contact after each article verifying that what we have reported is indeed true, as far as the parts they know. This is very much a matter of piecing together many little details, as well as knowing Doug Phillips well enough to know what makes him tick.
As far as revealing my sources, it ain’t gonna happen!
Regarding the ring, Cassandra is wearing the promise ring her father gave her, but it is no longer on her left ring finger. A former VF intern has stated that Doug promised to marry her. It is possible that Doug gave her the ring, but I do not know for sure. I do know that Cassandra was an extremely eligible young lady who traveled extensively and should have been well sought after during all those years. We know that she greatly desired to marry and have many children. Why would an eligible young lady who wanted to marry wear a ring simply to keep the men away in a world of courtship only? The VF world is a small world. Every young man who was also eligible knew that she was not married or engaged, and also knew that he would have to go through Doug Phillips to get to her.
December 18, 2013 at 7:15 pm
I am fairly certain that DP would be considered a public figure and therefore the *rules* of comment and conjecture are quite different.
December 18, 2013 at 7:40 pm
Nony, I stand corrected. Slander is verbal – had been having a discussion with a child on this and it carried. As Jen says though, it would have to be done with malice since Doug is a public figure. And this kind of situation is bound to cause speculation. No one said, “He is gay!” I heard “what if…”
As for bad reviews on Yelp, that minister in the Northwest tried it and he and his church had to pay the defendants’ legal fees. Tens of thousands of dollars. Besides, I would think a legalist would know Christians don’t sue (the legalist being Phillips). Surely he would want to abide by the Word?
Why are you so certain this blog is being treated with hilarity? Maybe in your world but in the bigger world, people appreciate abuse being brought to light.
December 18, 2013 at 8:18 pm
Doug Phillips is not a household name. At best, he could be classified as a limited purpose public figure. Even in this case, the motive of malice and/or impetuous journalism would not be difficult to tie into his case as Jen’s blog began as a personal account of her experiences with Doug Phillips. Moreover, though the blog is not AP “yay!” in either style or content, it’s incautious direction and speculations make it an easy target.
Again, I really do doubt that DP considers the statements made on JensGems to be of huge concern for this time. His situation, is perhaps, more dire…dire as in which breeches and waistcoat look best with fiscal death.
But it’s very difficult to glean any sort of Christian concern for Doug Phillips, his alleged mistress, or his family, based on the content of this blog. Debates as to DP’s salvation, choice of sexual partners, possible criminal intentions, pregnancies, and (my personal favorite) speculative accounts and hearsay regarding an older woman and her affinity for young men don’t portray the compassionate concern of the little flock.
Doug Phillips is pretty much over. He’s not a naturally humble sort, so I doubt he will ever repent of anything he has done. But even if he were to get struck with a mighty blast of introspection, and look back into his past, and grieve over his hypocrisies and bad film-making, I can almost guarantee you there’s one thing he will never repent of…
…there is one thing that will have him chuckling even late at night, even within the flimsy walls of his future Tobagan yurt…and that is what he did to you, Jen. He will own it and love it and laugh about it until the day his irritating little soul meets the dust. Because the more you keep blogging about him, the more he continues to win on this account. It’s the reason why people like Kathryn Joyce portray you as some unhinged female burning with eternal retaliation. There is a fight going on out there concerning Doug Phillips, but it’s far beyond what happened to you. And it really should be written about without your “youness” getting involved. You need space from this. Maybe some herbal tea. It’s healthier this way.
In the meantime, the rest of us need to figure out what the flip we are supposed to do without DP’s fancy dress parties.
December 20, 2013 at 7:10 pm
Regarding Christian concern for DP… I don’t hv any for him, or his kind. Wolves in sheep’s clothing do not need to be in the flock. The flock needs to be protected from them.
And your remarks about Jen, her blog and Doug laughing, etc…came across as a little passive aggressive to me.
December 19, 2013 at 12:46 am
I’m a journalism teacher. The conditions for libel are that statements be 1. published, 2. false, 3. harmful. You do not have to allege or prove malice in order to make a claim of libel. Successful libel suits have been pursued when there clearly was no malice, but where the writers did not exercise reasonable care in avoiding harmful and false allegations. Furthermore publishers can be held responsible for statements made by other commenters on their site. For example, a letter to the editor could be libelous and the newspaper as well as the letter’s author could be liable. I don’t know the whether blog comments fall into that same category, but it wouldn’t surprise me.
The best defense against a libel charge is, of course, that the statements are true. Next most effective is evidence that the statements, though false, did not create demonstrable harm.
December 19, 2013 at 1:12 am
Nony, thank you for confirming that about which I only wondered based on stories told – that Phillips has a mental disorder. When you describe how he laughs at the pain he caused Jen, you’re describing narcissistic personality disorder. Thanks for clarifying that since you more than anyone here appears to know him even now.
As for the unhinged female comment and the suggestion that Jen needs to get out of the way of something bigger and more important than her story (and the story of many here apparently), classic line from hierarchy trying to shut someone up. Do you guys all pass a playbook around?
December 19, 2013 at 7:43 am
STOP RIGHT THERE.. You mean to tell me that that short stuffed squirt LAUGHED at MY GIRL Jen and thought that all the hurt and pain he caused her was FUNNY???
Just you wait Douggie Phillips. just you wait. Karma probably has more presents for you as well.
December 19, 2013 at 6:45 am
“And it really should be written about without your “youness” getting involved”.
Seriously Nony, I suppose those who know him best, who have enabled him all these years, who could at any time speak up and begin a healing process that blogs like this indicate are real and growing, should be the ones to write about it? Find one of these valiant leaders and point us to him, someone who will plunge the depths of this catastrophe, expose it for what it is and then get his hands dirty by aiding the healing process.
Didn’t Deborah have to step in and fight when the men responsible wouldn’t? I don’t think Deborah was too concerned with her “youness” but her actions not only underscored the lack of leadership then, they also made it her “youness” stick out. She even sang a song about herself.
Those who know him best are hiding, maybe just for now and maybe for good reasons. But those are “maybes”. My guess is that they are too concerned with their “Me-ness”
December 19, 2013 at 7:13 am
Very well said, NC. The men who *could* reveal the whole truth of what’s been going on for the past 15 years are being cowards. Well, some are cowards, and we likely know who they are. Others, I’m sure, have been silenced by the cowards.
December 19, 2013 at 8:05 am
Looks to me like you are trying to silence Jen as well. Jen, you do not stop writing these articles and writing the truth. Nony, Who are you really?
December 19, 2013 at 8:37 am
Morgan, I believe the comment was “own it and love it and a laugh about it” basically until the day he dies. So thanks to Nony who appears to be an insider and close to Phillips (only an insider would use the classic “crazy lady” play) for confirming Phillips’ the general opinion that there’s something major wrong there. Besides, only an insider would think there was something more important than spiritual abuse. Nony also confirmed Jen’s personal story when saying Phillips would own it and laugh about it. So much for libel, Nony.
I would guess something said recently hit a nerve – the Scott Brown comments? (I think that’s his name – not part of this world).
December 19, 2013 at 8:43 am
Nony, I appreciated at least one element of your previous comment. I don’t appreciate this one, nor do I believe “I’d like to root for you.” Your legal saber rattling is too transparent. It’s not hard to see where it leads. Perhaps you’d like to see our sources dry up too? This is all classic Doug Phillips M.O. – legal threats and intimidation.
I’m quite familiar with the legal conditions for libel. Moreover I’m familiar with the court process. Good luck to Doug Phillips with making a case to a jury. Whether you care to admit it or not there are many people who would jump at the chance to offer testimony in a court of law against him. I seriously doubt such a case would even make it to trial though before he’d withdraw. The bright light of Discovery has a way of bringing the corrupt to their senses.
December 19, 2013 at 8:44 am
So, TEACH, by what you wrote, I am thinking that Jen may be able to pursue a libel suit against DP and BCA if she wanted to..especially since they STILL have nasty stuff about her on their website ! Jen seems more interested in helping others through alerting them and giving folks a place to get restoration of sorts.
December 19, 2013 at 11:12 am
Are you Doug Phillips in the flesh? DP is a chicken and so are you, that will not give a real name.
December 19, 2013 at 1:19 pm
Theresa, I’m not sure most on site are giving their real names. Particularly one of your hosts, T.W. Eston. And its all that advisable to use your real name on an Internet site. I am concerned with the legal issues hovering over this site. It has absolutely run in the direction where it could be subject to lawsuit. When T.W. Eston cropped a photo at the behest of certain commenters who had issues with “Cassandra’s” face being moderately blurred as to hide her identity, he claimed the original altering of the photo was sufficient to “standard journalistic practice”. And so it became abundantly clear that this individual lacked an understanding of journalism ethics and the context wherein these practices are applied.
Reaching back into the history of BCA, the secular consensus regarding the Jen Epstein vs Doug Phillips case has generally been that of Doug being evil, but Jen being utterly insane about the issue. It seemed to the outside community that he viewed her case unsympathetically and even with loathing, but for whatever reason Jen elicited a strange “please like me, and side with me,” complex that burst forth into a “You WILL like me and side with me or I will take it upon myself to blog volumes until I have ruined you!!!” Which proved an ineffective strategy to say the least. Note to host: good looking young girls can collapse a ministry much faster than illimitable bandwidth.
No one is trying to silence Jen. And no one is afraid that Jen is edging too close to the truth of some dark seedy conspiracy. Right now this blog is flying in circles.
Just a tip–it’s usually more advisable to: Uncover dark seedy conspiracy theory, THEN blog about. Not, use a blog for the purpose and process of creating and uncovering a conspiracy theory, such that readers can watch every speculation unfold and then explode on itself.
Moreover, were it true, and I do believe it is true, that there are many people who would like to testify in court against Doug Phillips, only a fraction of those waiting to air their grievances would be pertinent to the actual case itself…which again, begs the question: what is the case? Right now, there is no case. When there is a case and an actual plaintiff, then may the blogs erupt.
But even with that he is HIGHLY unlikely to repent. And that’s why, after reading this blog, originally out curiosity and now, because I just cannot look away due to my own sinister and awesome character issues, I cannot understand Jen’s repeated comments that call Doug to repentance. We all know that won’t happen. The content on this blog looks to be created to scandalize, not evoke repentance. Moreover, there are other names and families being drawn into blogs that feature unrelated and/or speculative claims. It’s getting ugly while still claiming to be pure. So, if Eston or Jen have genuine concern for Doug Phillip’s soul or even family and future, I would like to understand what part of this blog has been created to successfully call this man to repentance, and why the authors of this blog feel that they are qualified to solicit that repentance? And if there ever was concern for “Cassandra” and her family, suggesting that she be accomplice to some grand cover up without any evidence serves to further implicate a woman who has yet to issue any sort of public statement regarding her involvement with DP.
Its not Jen’s job to be requesting evidence and soliciting phone calls. That is job of a legal team representing an actual plaintiff who has a legitimate claim against DP. Should this occur, many from both the Christian and secular world will tune in to watch it go down with justice and (hopefully) legal precision. I do believe Jen has gone through a lot as the result of DP’s ridiculous ministry–a large part of her misery was self-induced. I think she someday move beyond this issue, but her need to break eggs in order to make an omelette amounts to her undoing each time.
December 18, 2013 at 7:46 am
How speculative are you being here? Is this knowledge or pure speculation?
December 18, 2013 at 6:03 pm
Jen, you believe that Casanda is a cover story? what could it possibly be? I hope your not implying that he might be G since TW is deleting post of that nature.
December 18, 2013 at 6:22 pm
Buddy, I do not know what they are covering up, but yes, I think this is just a cover story.
Let’s look at the facts. Doug Phillips has an inappropriate long-term romance with a young woman, but they don’t have sex. Jennifer Grady has multiple inappropriate relationships with (and advances toward) multiple men, AND has sex, yet NOTHING is done about it. Why would Doug Phillips’ non-sexual relationship be a “serious” enough sin to cause him to resign and close down his whole life’s dream, his life’s work, his life’s vision, just as it was soaring to new heights (HJS), all because he didn’t have sex, yet Jennifer Grady’s much more serious behavior is simply winked at? Does that make sense to you?
Also, if this was really about an inappropriate relationship with no sex, it would be entirely appropriate to confess, repent (NO ONE believes he has repented), make appropriate changes, and come back to ministry. What major ministry of this size go up in flames like this because of NO sex? Yes, what he has “confessed” to is very wrong, but not to this magnitude.
December 19, 2013 at 10:07 am
“Yes, what he has “confessed” to is very wrong, but not to this magnitude”.-Jen
Are you sure it is not to that magnitude? In a culture where girls are taught to trust the patriarchs as that would keep them from inappropriate sexual acts, and which is followed by many parents for that reason, isn’t it mighty big destructive evidence against your view if the BIG patriarch can do inappropriate sexual acts with a girl because she have been taught to trust patriarchs?
December 19, 2013 at 10:32 am
Retha, I think what she’s referring to is DP’s original “confession” on Oct. 30th. He admitted to an “inappropriate relationship”, but in that post, he denied having had sex with her. I THINK that’s what Jen means when she says “but not to this magnitude.” She’s referring to what HE said he did (and didn’t do), and the fact that Brown and others came down on him so hard, resulting in the closing of VF and his family having to move out of the mansion. Those guys wouldn’t have done that if his “inappropiate relationship” WITHOUT sex was all he really did. THAT is why she feels it’s a cover-up (and I agree)… because he (and perhaps some others with him) really DID do something much worse than just what he claimed.
December 16, 2013 at 1:40 pm
I understand what you are doing here, and I certainly don’t mean to seem as if I am writing off anything Phillips may have done, but there seems to be an awful lot of speculation here. You are assuming a great deal about how the relationship between Phillips and this “Cassandra” actually played out. In fact, it’s not clear to me whether it even took place for certain. You’re basically accusing this man of statutory rape without a shred of hard evidence, and I don’t believe such speculation is appropriate. I would suggest you back up your accusations and assumptions with credible (and named) sources and factual evidence. This strikes me as reckless and spiteful.
December 16, 2013 at 1:50 pm
Edward, if Scott Brown says they are true, is that witness enough for you? Please see Dr. Postulate’s comments where he states that Scott Brown says that all our articles are indeed true.
December 16, 2013 at 1:56 pm
So just because someone calling himself “Dr. Postulate” quotes an anonymous source he calls “Eduardo” in the comments section of a blog, I’m supposed to believe Doug Phillips was a statutory rapist? That’s a pretty flimsy argument.
December 16, 2013 at 1:58 pm
No one called Doug a “statutory rapist.”
December 16, 2013 at 4:26 pm
Jen, that’s hearsay – would not be admissible in court. Will Scott Brown identify himself on this blog and say they are true?
December 16, 2013 at 4:48 pm
Mick, for obvious reasons, no one should anticipate that Scott Brown will be posting any comments to this blog, or anywhere else for that matter. Scott Brown is just hoping he can stay as far away from all this as he possibly can.
As a Vision Forum Ministries board member, Scott Brown is legally culpable for the misdeeds of VFM, particular where it concerns financial improprieties and tax matters. My understanding is that Scott Brown has retained legal counsel. His attorney would have already advised him to make no public comments, and I’m confident he’ll act accordingly.
December 16, 2013 at 4:57 pm
TW – I know Scott Brown wouldn’t do that. My point is that Jen said that “Dr. Postulate” said that “his friend” said that Scott Brown said…is hearsay – in fact, its at least double hearsay. I’m surprised that she would reference that kind of statement as true. It is not provable, nor credible.
I really wish you all would be careful with information!
December 16, 2013 at 5:26 pm
Mick, I would agree that Dr. Postulate’s testimony isn’t, in and of itself, particularly credible, as would any third-hand testimony. However, one thing his testimony does do is corroborate exactly what I was already told by first-hand non-hearsay testimony. I won’t go into specifics here about my source (an entirely different source), but I do appreciate Dr. Postulate’s corroboration.
December 17, 2013 at 9:35 am
Mick, no one here is saying that anonymous commenters are the equivalent as witnesses on trial. We are not holding trial here. We report what we hear from multiple inside sources, and then we give the whole world a chance to refute our reporting. The fact that NO ONE refutes any of it is significant to TW and me, but if it means nothing to you, you are certainly welcome to find your own evidence, for or against what we report here.
December 16, 2013 at 2:03 pm
False. I am not “basically accusing this man of statutory rape”. I’m very deliberate in the use of the term “clergy sexual abuse”. The two crimes are similar insofar as they both involve sex, but there the similarities end.
If the sexual acts began in Texas when Cassandra was under the age of 17, or under the age of consent in any of the states where she traveled with Doug then, yes, he would also be guilty of statutory rape. But I’ve made no such accusation because we have no proof of that at this time.
What we do have testimony of is that Doug Phillips is guilty of clergy sexual abuse, which is plenty bad enough, in and of itself.
December 16, 2013 at 2:04 pm
“No one, other than Doug and Cassandra, know exactly when the sex began but, at best, Cassandra was barely at the age of legal consent (17 in Texas). Some have argued that it likely started when she was under the age of consent. For Doug Phillips’ sake he’d better not have done anything at all ‘inappropriate’ if she was under the age of consent. Texas has no statute of limitations in certain cases of sexual acts with a minor under the age of legal consent.”
You might not be accusing him outright, but you’re certainly implying it.
December 16, 2013 at 2:11 pm
I am implying nothing. I’m making statements of legal fact, qualified with “if”. If he’s not guilty of statutory rape he’s got no worries about being prosecuted for statutory rape. However, this changes nothing as to his culpability in clergy sexual abuse. Whether he’s guilty of both or just the one seems rather immaterial to me, other than the length of criminal sentence he may ultimately face.
December 16, 2013 at 2:19 pm
Yes, but your entire argument hinges on the relationship between Phillips and “Cassandra” unfolding in the manner you thought it did. Most of the statements I’m reading here are speculating on the nature of their relationship, meaning your accusations of clergy abuse are based on your own conclusions and not hard facts. Look, I’m no great fan of Phillips either, but I would like to see more factual evidence of the things you are implying.
December 16, 2013 at 2:24 pm
False again. I am not speculating, and what I’ve stated are hard facts.
I appreciate that you and many others would like to see more in the way of “hard facts”. I’d love nothing more than to reveal far more than I have done so far. For legal reasons that simply isn’t possible at this time. When it becomes possible that will happen. If you choose to be a skeptic that’s entirely your prerogative, and I certainly won’t fault you for it.
December 16, 2013 at 2:37 pm
This is going to be my last comment, since I’m beginning to realize we’re simply not going to agree on this. If there are enough legal issues to keep you from backing up your accusations with factual evidence, I would suggest you stop writing posts like this until you can share information more freely. I can’t see how what you’re doing here is helping the situation, except for maybe drawing more readers to this blog. Doug Phillips may have been everything you said he is, but that does not make it okay to write things about him that may not be true.
December 16, 2013 at 2:59 pm
Edward, there is ONE way to stop us from writing stories about Doug Phillips, stories which his followers need to be aware of so that they can make informed decisions in their own lives and families, and that is for Doug Phillips himself to come forward and TRULY confess what he has done. Confession is the first step toward repentance, and he has not done so yet. I can tell you from experience that it is far better to confess yourself than to have others tell what you have done. However, if one chooses NOT to confess, then others will find out anyway.
“Be sure your sin will find you out.”
December 16, 2013 at 11:14 pm
Perhaps the blogosphere is not for you. If you want named sources, hard facts, etc…I recommend you watch televised trials. That’s about the closest you’ll get. Blogs, newspapers, magazines, tv…probably not.
December 16, 2013 at 2:53 pm
Just curious, Edwardsheridan. How do you *know* that what T.W. has stated is merely speculation? He is insistent that they’re *facts*, and can prove it. That doesn’t mean he has to prove it to YOU, or on this blog, or at this time. Where the legal system is involved, evidence sometimes (often) needs to be withheld from the general public for a certain length of time. That’s just the way it works. (Yes, I have a legal background.)
December 16, 2013 at 3:00 pm
I will just refer again to my initial argument, which was that the writer was implying Phillips was guilty of a crime punishable by law without sufficient evidence to support that claim.
December 16, 2013 at 3:39 pm
Edwardsheridan, actually, what TW did was to state what the law says about a girl’s age and what would legally happen *if*. There have been many “what if” scenarios presented throughout (I’ve even read a lot people “implying” that DP is gay, but as far as I know, none of the people saying that have a single shred of evidence… whereas TW states that he DOES have evidence for what he’s presented… and he did NOT factually state that DP *did* have s*x with C before the age of 17). And as I stated before, when an investigation is ongoing, the person holding the evidence simply *cannot* reveal it all at once.
I’m just baffled as to why you and some others are so certain that TW is making false accusations, anyway. Do you have evidence to the contrary? Why go after TW? If you’re absolutely certain that he’s telling falsehood, then present the evidence! He states that he has evidence for what he’s shared. He’s also stated that if any, even the smallest detail, is NOT accurate, then it needs to be corrected. But not “accused”. Do you see that you’re doing the very thing you accuse him of doing?
Statutory rape and clergy sexual abuse are two different crimes in the eyes of the law.
December 16, 2013 at 11:32 pm
I agree, Donna. Plus, it has been shown that Doug is very litigious. TW knows that and is smart enough not to write anything he can’t back up.
December 16, 2013 at 4:12 pm
The problem with the line of distinction between “clergy sexual abuse” in this regard lies with how the defense would argue the case. IF he were prosecuted for this offense, the statue reads,
“who causes the other person to submit or participate by exploiting the other person’s emotional dependency on the clergyman in the clergyman’s professional character as spiritual adviser”
However, the defense team would argue that in the instance with the victim in this regard, he was not engaged in the capacity of a “spiritual adviser” but within the context of a “family” environment — (contractual to the “family” not the religious organization) separate and distinct from his “profession” at the time, and thus distancing himself from the “other person’s emotional dependency” as a “clergyman”. Since this arrangement was not in the context of a “church staff member” or relative to her standing as a “member” they would argue the relationship, while “unethical” may not have been in direct violation of the terms as described by the statue itself.
The most common occurrence of where the violation of this law takes place is in “counseling” where the person has subject herself to the purpose of being under his care as a “spiritual adviser” —
It would be a lame defense, but in these cases, the guilty person looks for every possible “loophole” in the law. Whether prosecuted as a “criminal” case or not, the burden of proof for financial liability would certainly exist in a civil care where the rule of evidence and the burden of proof are less. This is one of the reasons why many pastors have taken out insurance policies for “clergy malpractice” so that liability issues are resolved and the organization is not also named in any lawsuit that may arise because of the conduct of the leader.
December 16, 2013 at 4:37 pm
Larry, I agree that Doug would attempt such a defense. I also agree that “It would be a lame defense”. It would be easily defeated on the basis that Cassandra had been a member of Doug’s “church” the entire time that she had also been in his “service” in his home. Furthermore, as I understand it, Cassandra’s BCA membership preceded when she started working in his home. Thus, the scenario clearly fits the criteria of “exploiting the other person’s emotional dependency on the clergyman in the clergyman’s professional character as spiritual adviser.” The fact that she served him in his home doesn’t nullify the criteria. Rather, it only reinforces it.
December 17, 2013 at 9:42 am
Larry, the problem with that is that Cassandra believed that the way she could obey her (church) elder in following patriarchy, since she could not literally serve her own father, was to “serve” those in the community, which does not mean her local neighborhood, but rather those in her church, and in her case, her elder. She built her whole life around serving her (church) elder. That was her entire function.
December 17, 2013 at 9:56 am
I’ve heard many survivors of clergy sexual abuse say they were told they were “serving” the church in ministering to the pastor, that is was the role God called them to and the minister had that special word from God that it should be so. Why wouldn’t Cassandra believe it?
December 17, 2013 at 4:56 pm
Jackie, I am sure that Cassandra believed that she was called to “serve” Doug Phillips, but I don’t think God called her to “serve” him in that way.
December 17, 2013 at 8:16 pm
Jen, I know you get it. It didn’t sound right coming right after yours – I wasn’t replying to you and yours wasn’t there when I posted.
I am irritated though with others refocusing on Cassandra. It is easy of them to judge her as a sinner without making any effort to see how it has played out for similar victims. And how it is not uncommon for it to go on for this long and longer. Maybe someday you could feature similar stories just to give background and education to others. Most mainline denominations have their ministers trained in boundaries every 3 years so to me it is a no brainer. Plus I used to host a retreat for women survivors of clergy sexual abuse at my retreat center so I’ve heard firsthand the stories. I realize that can make me impatient with those who are new to the concept. But this would be a great opportunity for church members to hear the personal stories – that way if the grooming is ever used on them, they’ll recognize it. And that’s basically what my comment about serving ways – a way to share one of the traps.
December 17, 2013 at 9:29 pm
Thanks, Jackie. I don’t think I know any similar stories at this time. 🙂
There is nothing “mainstream” about Doug at all. If it involves PC training, I am sure that does not happen at Vision Forum.
December 17, 2013 at 5:14 am
What exactly did “parading her around the San Antonio Independent Film Festival”
look like? How exactly did they “walk as lovers, hand in hand”? If this is based on eyewitness accounts (and I’m not saying it isn’t) you should be able to say what exactly people saw without the editorializing.
December 17, 2013 at 7:52 am
This is a blog, Erik, not a court of law. TW isn’t the one on the stand here. He’s the one doing the investigating. I’m sure he’ll provide more details when he needs to.
December 17, 2013 at 8:58 am
Donna, don’t be silly – nobody’s putting TW on trial. And this blog is a court of sorts – so you can’t have your cake and eat it too here. All were asking for is less embelishing, less mixing fact with fiction, and more humility in presenting wrongs that need to be righted. And also, what I’ve asked for, is some ownership by the finger-pointers to their failure in getting caught up in the spiritual maelstorm.
December 17, 2013 at 9:13 am
I couldn’t agree more with Mick. Just one example is some of you err greatly in questioning the display of affection that Doug P had/has for his children. Could it just be that his affection is normal and what we have come to accept as “normal”, which is usually father’s hardly displaying any affection toward their children, is really not normal? Let’s all rightly condemn what we know are the facts in this matter, and there are many, but let’s leave this unproductive speculation about the motives of Phillip’s heart to him and His God. Some of you talk like you can see Phillip’s heart….be careful…the Scriptures have a message for you.
December 17, 2013 at 9:39 am
Scripture is very clear that we will see the fruit of a man’s deeds… AND that we (believers) have both the right and the obligation to call men out in their sin. Don’t twist (or “embellish”, as you said) my words. What we have SAID is that the WAY, and the DEGREE to which DP OVER-emphasizes his affection for his children LOOKS like flirting…. JUST AS he does the same thing with women NOT his children. That is FACT.
It’s his HABIT of flirting and charming young women — or what appears to be flirting, especially in light of what we now know to be FACT (adultery and/or clergy sexual abuse) — that was being called out, not his having affection for his daughters.
Furthermore, my comments about this were in response to someone else’s comments about how many parents and other VF “guests” must look back now and be able to see things that they didn’t see the first time… not only with the flirting issue, but with many other issues as well. Hindsight is what we’re discussing here. So don’t take my words out of context and then accuse me of being wrongly judgmental. Please read the full context of the discussion.
A man with as much authority and visibility as Doug Phillips, who continually touches, caresses, “pets”, and kisses women and girls — whether his daughters or not — and whom later is found to be an adulterer and/or sexual abuser (without repentance), is not to be *defended*. Unless of course you’re the lawyer being paid to defend him in a court of law, which is his Constitutional right. We can pray that he will truly repent and become a man after God’s own heart as David did, and sincerely seek the Lord for help in how he ought to be behave as a Godly man. But so far, he hasn’t done that.
Jen and TW, please feel free to delete any of my comments if they’re inappropriate on this forum.
December 17, 2013 at 9:51 am
Donna, your comments are well thought out and appropriate. That old cliche that hindsight is 20/20 is true once again, and I am sure that many people are replaying those images in their own minds, and seeing a different picture this time. Sadly.
December 17, 2013 at 10:04 am
Thanks for proving my point. You call “facts” what are merely your opinions…please allow me to quote you and explain. You stated,
“What we have SAID is that the WAY, and the DEGREE to which DP OVER-emphasizes his affection for his children LOOKS like flirting…. JUST AS he does the same thing with women NOT his children. That is FACT.”
You are just plain flat-out wrong to claim as “FACT” what is in fact, your opinion about “OVER-emphasis” in reference to affection that Phillips displays toward his children. You may believe this with your whole heart, but that doesn’t make it a “FACT”. You do err greatly as it is only your opinion. What one person would consider “OVER-emphasis” is what another may consider to be perfectly normal.
December 17, 2013 at 10:15 am
Additionally, some here are confusing that Christians are called to judge fruit with that necessarily excusing them from the responsibility to judge “fruit” itself, and that this doesn’t give a license to speculate about anything you like. For example, I can rightly judge the rotten fruit of Doug Phillips’ adultery with Casandra, but it is wrong to springboard from this to condemning the affection he displayed toward his own children. If anyone can demonstrate from Scripture that it is bad fruit to kiss your children, or even “pet” them, I will wait for the response.
December 17, 2013 at 11:10 am
Bob, are you not also bragging about your own righteousness… just a little bit? And judging MY actions as less holy than yours? Are you not also judging someone else’s fruit to some degree? Who are you here to represent, and why is it so important to you? Do you feel personally attacked because you were once a member of BCA? Do you feel it’s your duty to “correct” everyone here, just as you attempted to do at BCA? Just curious where you’re coming from…..
December 17, 2013 at 11:21 am
Bob, you know when affection gives you the creeps. Just watching Phillips with his daughter while she’s singing made me uncomfortable, the way he as staring at her while holding her hand.
There is an age at which we have to accept that certain types of affection are no longer appropriate. The Bible says nothing about it but if my 22-year-old son still sat on my lap while I reading, you would think it was creepy. He would think it was creepy if I held his hand and stared at him. And “petting” a person? There’s such a thing as boundaries, even with our children.
December 17, 2013 at 12:09 pm
Personally, I think we have actually heard enough from BCA/Doug Phillips about how to lead the elite Christian life…..how to think about music, art, history; how to rule over your home; what to eat, where to place your TV, what DVDs to watch, how to treat your nanny (oh, wait). Especially as it happens that not only were they not living the elite Christian life, they weren’t even following the basics by failing to reign in an apostate, by beating the sheep and not feeding them and by failing to preach Christ regularly.
December 17, 2013 at 4:30 pm
Wait a minute! Did I miss something? What is this about where to place your TV?
December 17, 2013 at 12:37 pm
Jackie, when I look at the video of Faith singing on stage, and Doug holding her hand, I see a dad bursting with pride. It makes me want to cry just watching it. Faith was performing a very difficult operatic piece with total poise (though you can see her hands shaking as she clutched her notes). She was very young — maybe 13 or so? — and I imagine having her dad holding her hand gave her a great deal of strength. For all we know, Faith could have asked her dad to stand on stage with her for support. I just don’t see creepiness there.
Doug may be an adulterer headed for the lake of fire, but I don’t think his behavior in this little clip shows anything other than a very loving, supportive dad with his immensely talented daughter.
December 17, 2013 at 12:45 pm
If holding his daughter’s hand for support while she sung what was clearly a very difficult task was the only thing…. my husband would’ve likely done the same thing. That’s not what we’re talking about, NeverAgain.
December 17, 2013 at 4:25 pm
NeverAgain, what I am seeing here is that Doug’s behavior here (and in the Mother of the Year video) seems like normal Doug Phillips behavior to those of us who know him, and have seen how “touchy-feely” he is.
For those who don’t know him, I can see how that would appear to be unusual behavior.
I know that Doug would teach that children NEED physical affection from their parents, and so that was all part-and-parcel of his message.
December 17, 2013 at 12:55 pm
Bob, of course you could make criticisms of us if you had video cameras on us at all times. No one is denying that. The vast majority of us here recognize that we are dead in sin without Christ, and as per Romans 7, we recognize that sanctification is slowly (but steadily) working in us.
The difference between the vast majority of us here and the Doug Phillips/BCA crowd is that most of us have never lectured/hectored other Christians about how to live the elite Christian life; Moreover, the vast majority of us have never abused the sheep; and in fact, I would wager that the vast majority of us here have been faithful in our marriages. Yet, we all acknowledge that we are grave sinners…and we strive every day to follow Christ and try to help others do the same. Meanwhile, we have to stomach Doug Phillips holding himself out as qualified to call someone Mother of the Year while he is livng a deeply immoral life in his own home! Even as he continues to harp on real Christians about skirt lengths, etc. ad infinitum….
That’s the difference.
December 17, 2013 at 2:13 pm
Your post, JPGR, reminds me of Matthew 23:1-15 ~~ “Then Jesus spoke to the multitudes and to His disciples, saying: “The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses’ seat. Therefore whatever they tell you to observe, that observe and do, but do not do according to their works; for they say, and do not do. For they bind heavy burdens, hard to bear, and lay them on men’s shoulders; but they themselves will not move them with one of their fingers. But all their works they do to be seen by men. They make their phylacteries broad and enlarge the borders of their garments. They love the best places at feasts, the best seats in the synagogues, greetings in the marketplaces, and to be called by men, ‘Rabbi, Rabbi.’ But you, do not be called ‘Rabbi’; for One is your Teacher, the Christ, and you are all brethren. Do not call anyone on earth your father; for One is your Father, He who is in heaven. And do not be called teachers; for One is your Teacher, the Christ. But he who is greatest among you shall be your servant. And whoever exalts himself will be humbled, and he who humbles himself will be exalted.
“But woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you shut up the kingdom of heaven against men; for you neither go in yourselves, nor do you allow those who are entering to go in. Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you devour widows’ houses, and for a pretense make long prayers. Therefore you will receive greater condemnation.
“Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you travel land and sea to win one proselyte, and when he is won, you make him twice as much a son of hell as yourselves.”
December 17, 2013 at 4:21 pm
JPGR, well said! In my book, Doug’s hypocrisy ranks up there as his #1 or #2 crime.
December 17, 2013 at 1:04 pm
Never again, I said it was the way he was looking at her the whole time while holding her hand. It was either creepy or faked adoring dad. He used the attention on her to focus attention on himself. He is the center of his world. You have your opinion and I have mine but I know creepy. I came from a healthy family and know my own boundaries. My mom taught me to trust my gut and I do. I’ve worked with thousands of children over the years and I’m sorry, but dads don’t act like that.
December 17, 2013 at 1:10 pm
The fact that ANYone here thinks that Doug’s behavior, i.e. petting and fawning over his daughters in public in a way he didn’t even treat his wife, is immensely disturbing to me. Yes, it’s creepier in retrospect, but it should have sent up alarm bells even in real-time.
December 17, 2013 at 4:42 pm
in the video that introduces/accompanies the Advanced Family Strategies series, Doug is talking about all the things they are going to cover…including the layout of the house, how to organize it, and even other (I guess the advanced part) things that most people don’t think about, such as where to place your TV (the idea being, I’m sure, that it shouldn’t be too prominent….an idea which many of us have had, of course, but which most of us would not include in a lecture to Christians).
That was the point at which I could no longer watch the video. I turned it off. Perhaps he backtracks or qualifies it later (I doubt it), but I don’t know because I turned it off.
Maybe someone can last longer than me….
December 17, 2013 at 5:04 pm
JPGR, thanks, but no thanks. I will let someone else watch that series! LOL!
I’m thinking that “advanced” family strategies include how to include your nanny as part of the family, so maybe I won’t watch that part. 🙂
How to organize your house? The layout of the house? Seriously? Do patriarchs have NO freedoms left now? Maybe the layout part was house to design your house to hide your secret sins. Huh?
I’m surprised he hasn’t lectured on acceptable patriarchal sexual positions.
December 17, 2013 at 5:21 pm
Jen, maybe that’s what some of their secret men’s meetings were about 😉
December 17, 2013 at 6:23 pm
Donna, in Doug’s world, secret meetings abound!
December 17, 2013 at 5:47 pm
I am hosting the watch party and will provide snacks and drinks. 😉
It should be a good time as long as no one takes it seriously.
December 17, 2013 at 6:26 pm
Morgan, that is an awesome idea! We should have a party! I am not rejoicing in the downfall of a man or his ministry, but I am rejoicing that the padlocks on the prison of legalism have been severed with the bolt cutters and now the prisoners are free to explore the gift of life that God has so graciously given each one of us! Let us enjoy life!
December 17, 2013 at 9:37 am
Of course he can write whatever he wants. And some like you might accept it as the gospel truth. I was asking a clarifying question regarding a claim made by TW – a claim presented as fact and supposedly supported by eyewitness acounts. I don’t need to accept every word that TW says, like the words of some unquestionable authority. I’m asking what the eyewitnesses saw, not embellished language about “parading” or “walking as lovers” – that’s editorializing and it’s not at all clear what exactly he means by that.
December 17, 2013 at 1:17 pm
Mom T, I thought in the Mother of the Year video that it looked like his wife was pulling away from him when he had his arm around her while talking about her. That could have been natural discomfort of being on stage but it looked to me like a mad wife.
December 17, 2013 at 1:18 pm
Sorry – this is in the wrong spot!
December 17, 2013 at 11:27 am
I’m on the same page as you, Donna. In the video where MD recieves “mother of the year” award from DP, MD’s husband, JBD, saw the need to put distance between his wife and DP. I don’t know what the younger crowd calls this sort of affection, but the older folks would label it as “cop a feel.”
December 17, 2013 at 11:46 am
Wow, he sure did! A couple of times, in fact. Good for Jim Bob!
December 17, 2013 at 11:51 am
Love the way JBD truly protected his wife from the scummy, nasty man. P.S. Notice in the first and ending crowd scenes that DP and BP are in the audience about third row.
December 17, 2013 at 12:32 pm
Hey! They ARE in the audience! Either that or it’s a couple who looks just like them, with the same colored outfits on. They’re very hard to see… about the third row, left of center, look *closely* behind the older gray haired fellow in the tan pants and jacket who’s sitting in the front row. You can see BP’s head straight above/behind his. Doug is to her left (the viewer’s right), but you kind of have to wait for the man in the second row to move his head out of the way to see Doug. You might have to replay it a couple of times to catch it.
So is it really DP and BP, or someone dressed just like them, with same hair color and style? And if it’s really them, what’s the deal? Aren’t they supposed to be on stage at that moment? Coincidence?
December 17, 2013 at 12:37 pm
Yep, they’re in the same spot in the audience at 11:12. Those same two seats are empty at 5:18 when Michelle and JB are called up to the stage.
Is that Lourdes Torres speaking at 4:51 to 5:03? The last woman to say thank you to Michelle.
December 17, 2013 at 12:44 pm
December 17, 2013 at 12:33 pm
I’m not here to defend any wrongdoing by Doug Phillips or others, but again, this is all opinion about the “Mother of the Year” video. I am one of the “older folks” and I just watched the video. While I wouldn’t have done anything beyond shaking her hand, I fail to see the “cop a feel” you are referencing. As one that didn’t grow up in the church, and as one that has been involved in much immorality prior to my conversion to Christ, I think you are making something out of nothing. I know what “cop a feel.” is and it’s just my opinion, but you don’t know what you are talking about. I am surprised some people’s minds are watching something like this and going straight to the gutter. This may say more about the people making these observations than about Phillips. I accept it is just your opinion, but before you attack me, realize I am allowed to have an opinion also. Your opinion carries no more weight than mine.
If I had video footage of some of you, I am sure I could make all kinds of observations and criticisms of you also. All of this speculation and insinuation moves the focus off of the clear wrongdoing by Phillips. Additionally, it gives credit to those that would seek to discredit the things that have been truthfully stated on this blog. Frankly, it is a real distraction.
I am afraid some of you hate Phillips so much he probably couldn’t do, or have done, anything that wouldn’t escape your self-righteous indignation. Yes, I saw him do many things that concerned me, but jumping to conclusions based on our own flawed observations is not the way to go here.
December 17, 2013 at 12:52 pm
Just curious – did he ever “pet” his wife and flirt with her publicly in the same way as his children and other females?
December 17, 2013 at 1:09 pm
Yes, Phillips has consistently displayed public affection toward his wife.
December 17, 2013 at 1:18 pm
Bob, do you have a link to a video showing the same kind of PDA to his wife as to other women and girls? I haven’t seen any, but I haven’t watched every single video there is, either.
December 17, 2013 at 1:30 pm
Donna, I think Bob witnessed this in real life rather than on video. That is reasonable.
December 17, 2013 at 1:20 pm
Bob – I asked if it was public affection of the same kind – fawning eyes, petting and flirtatious….
December 17, 2013 at 1:30 pm
Bob, there’s a reason we expect a man to shake our hand when presenting an award – instead of kissing it then kissing our cheek and stepping in close. It’s called respecting personal boundaries. Notice how far away Doug steps when Michelle’s husband puts his hand on her shoulder. And how much closer Beall moved to Michelle too? I don’t know these people and have no personal animosity but I can read body language. Men who ignore personal boundaries for their own gratification are common the world over and fairly easy to spot.
December 17, 2013 at 1:34 pm
Bob, has it ever occured to you that maybe some people in your life think you cross boundaries and just don’t know how to say it? If you think this is all so normal, that is. I’ve worked with many men, some very charismatic, powerful religious leaders, and none of them would treat women this way.
December 17, 2013 at 1:57 pm
I just thought I would add my two cents on this inappropriate display of affection conversation. I think he was extremely inappropriate, absolutely! I have two daughters as well I was sexually abused as a children and just by watching the videos of Doug I can tell he has a problem. As a man in the position Doug was in his focus should have staying above reproach and avoiding the appearance of evil. He did not do that at all in this area. Besides a handshake, Doug should have kept his hands to himself. I felt sorry for Faith when she was singing that hard song at the film festival while her father was constantly petting her and grabbing her hand. Doug obviously as serious issues with physical boundaries with females in general. I think his relationship with Cassandra and possible Jennifer Grady and his handling of the Grady situation is proof of that. Bob, I agree people are crossing the line with some of their comments, however I think the evidence speaks for itself in this area. Doug has a serious problem with females in general. As a victim of sexual abuse I can see that just in observing Doug.
December 17, 2013 at 1:57 pm
Jen – can you corroborate Bob’s testimony from your time at BCA?
December 17, 2013 at 4:09 pm
MomT, if you are asking if Doug showed affection to Beall while I was at BCA, then yes, he certainly did.
December 19, 2013 at 1:36 pm
Maybe this was already addressed but didn’t I see DP stroke Michelle’s hair?
December 19, 2013 at 5:55 pm
It’s at 6:08. Very quick. After he kisses her cheek and wipes his mouth, then he pats Jim Bob’s shoulder and then strokes Michelle’s hair.
December 17, 2013 at 5:49 pm
“Bob, you know when affection gives you the creeps. Just watching Phillips with his daughter while she’s singing made me uncomfortable, the way he as staring at her while holding her hand.”
But I watch it and it doesn’t give me “the creeps”. I question your ability to analyze his “staring at her” (in other words, to see his heart) and imply it is anything more than a father that is proud of his daughter that he deeply cares for.
Then, you give us this red herring when you state:
“There is an age at which we have to accept that certain types of affection are no longer appropriate. The Bible says nothing about it but if my 22-year-old son still sat on my lap while I reading, you would think it was creepy. He would think it was creepy if I held his hand and stared at him.”
There is just no comparison to what Phillips did and your example. What you have stated is commonly known as a “logical fallacy”.
December 17, 2013 at 6:29 pm
While I realize many people are not this “touchy-feely” themselves, I am going to just chalk this one up to both Doug’s personality and his charisma/charm. That is just who Doug is. In fact, while viewing the “Mother of the Year” video again, I saw him put his hand on Jim Bob’s shoulder as well. That’s just Doug. 🙂
December 17, 2013 at 6:34 pm
My thoughts exactly!
December 17, 2013 at 8:27 pm
Bob, it is your logic that is faulty. You said to show you in the Bible where such affection is prohibited. I was merely using an extreme example to show that there are some things the Bible doesn’t address that we know are wrong or inappropriate anyway.
December 17, 2013 at 8:48 pm
The Bible addresses the issue of modesty extensively. This includes modest *behavior*, not only clothing…. and it applies to men as well as women. The Proverbs is full of descriptions and warnings to and about foolish men and their attitudes and deeds. The New Testament addresses modesty in particular in a few different places. It also addresses how men and women ought to be treating one another.
Webster’s 1828 defines modesty as:
“That lowly temper which accompanies a moderate estimate of one’s own worth and importance….. In persons who have seen the world, and lost their natural timidity, modesty springs no less from principle than from feeling, and is manifested by retiring, unobtrusive manners, assuming less to itself than others are willing to yield, and conceding to others all due honor and respect, or even more than they expect or require.
Modesty, as an act or series of acts, consists in humble, unobtrusive deportment as opposed to extreme boldness, forwardness, arrogance, presumption, audacity or impudence.:
Modestly, adv. “Not boldly; not arrogantly or presumptuously; with due respect. Not loosely or wantonly; decently; as, to be modestly attired; to behave modestly.”
Modest, adj. “Properly, restrained by a sense of propriety; hence, not forward or bold; not presumptuous or arrogant; not boastful.”
If that doesn’t define the difference between appropriate and inappropriate behavior, I don’t know what does. It really doesn’t matter what ANY of our opinions are on the matter.
December 18, 2013 at 1:31 am
Having seen the video of Mother of the Year with MD & JBD before I knew who DP & his wife were I thought DP was very inappropriate. He is invading personal space. Reading about this being “normal” for him does not make it right under any circumstance most especially for children. This behaviour is seen in this type of personality. Attention seeking. “Look at me”. I believe you are doing a Godly service to stop DP from continuing his evil actions. Note I do not say DP is evil but his actions are. Any belief system that puts rules/laws before the Spirit is wrong. Jesus did not teach this. “Do unto others as you would have them do to you”
December 18, 2013 at 8:04 am
The ‘invasion of space’ thing (for lack of a better descriptive) is rampant these days. I have started calling people out that get too close in public, check out lines at grocery are the worst, as is the baggage claim. I believe that the online contact we have have with others sometime blurs the lines of what is proper and what is not when we are in contact with other people, even total strangers.
Being a narcissistic public figure I am sure that DP felt that his attention was ‘welcomed’ whether by family members or others; whether the attention was welcomed or not.
December 18, 2013 at 8:15 am
Your post about personal space reminds me of a video I saw last night. It’s funny! http://www.dailydot.com/lol/airport-phone-conversations-greg-benson/
December 18, 2013 at 9:23 am
That is wonderful…reminds me of the time I was on an aircraft and the ‘helicopter parents with the stroller from hell and acoutrements de bebe’ came barging down the aisle, both me and the lady sitting across the aisle looked at them and then at each other. It was a Mr. Spock mind meld moment. Stopped them in their tracks.
People can be so clueless and I’ll wager that’s where DP’s issues started…he was and is just plain ignorant of any personal boundaries, narcissistic and clueless. Emphasis: clueless.
December 18, 2013 at 8:46 am
Morgan, excellent point. Phillips is probably completely convinced his attentions are wanted. He’s convinced people over the years that it’s normal and just the way he is. But the very fact that they are convinced when outsiders are not is a warning.
Narcissists have a purpose to their actions. One way to deflect the anger of a taller, bigger man is to put your hand on their arm or shoulder while speaking with them. The first one to touch has the power. Men use this a lot in our culture with women and with men they want to dominate. It is interesting to use it back to calm down a situation or to get a point across.
Donna – funny video! Love to start the day with a laugh.
December 18, 2013 at 9:44 am
Jackie, I know all about the touching the arm or shoulder thing.I work in heavy aircraft maintenance leasing and the males on the other side try this all the time. As I make it a point never to meet in a closed office with any males except those on my team, it’s always funny when one of my guys (especially the biker-dude) growls: Don’t even think about touching her. They all know I will push back…literally. I do not allow my personal boundaries to be violated. People really do need to learn to say no.
December 18, 2013 at 10:07 am
Morgan, my mom taught me that one but not until I was 28 and in a ministry position with a 6’5″, 70-year-old volunteer used to running the show very mad I was hired. I used to have nightmares about he and his wife (we all attended the same small church too). He bullied people with the whole looming and lecturing deal. After the first few times I started conversations with touching his arm, he gave up on me. Valuable lesson Mom could have given me earlier. I worked in what at the time was a mostly male profession in our denomination and the tip came in handy. And with a narcissist, it’s very helpful to prevent any physical contact if you can. Power trip when they initiate and power deflater when you deflect. Notice in the video of Michelle Duggar that when her husband steps in, Phillips then touches him. Excellent example of how to still maintain the power. Phillips is very good at it. He probably doesn’t even have to consciously think about it anymore, just part of his disorder that he’s learned to do it and really HAS to do it.
I’m glad you’ve found ways to deflect such seekers.
December 18, 2013 at 2:14 pm
I had to jump in here to agree with the commenters who find DP’s physicality with his daughters “creepy.” We are not connected with any of these churches and movements, but we are a very “huggy” family, and we found his behavior in the videos to go past creepy into “alarming.” At the very least, he shows complete disregard for Michelle’s and his daughter’s personal boundaries.
The knowledge that he is like that with everyone actually makes it worse, not better. As adults, we instinctively know people vary with regard to their tolerance for physical touch, and change our approach accordingly. Either DP has some sort of social skills disability, or he is intentionally showing aggression, masked as affection.
Hopefully it’s just another indicator of his narcissism, and not a sign of something worse. But it’s not normal. And surely, in many cases, not welcome.
December 17, 2013 at 8:18 am
Eric, please see my response here.
December 17, 2013 at 9:22 am
Erik, perhaps you would like to write the next article instead? When I hear someone say “walk as lovers, hand in hand,” I get a pretty clear picture in my mind of what that looks like. Perhaps you’ve never walked hand in hand with anyone? I’m sorry, but I don’t get your point. This is not a trashy romance novel where we paint a picture of illicit romance as it blossoms before our very eyes. We are providing a few salient details to tell the necessary story.
December 17, 2013 at 1:57 pm
I got a pretty clear picture in my mind too when I read, “He was parading her around the San Antonio Independent Film Festival (Feb 23-25) as they walked as lovers, hand in hand.” But now “More than likely,” according to TW’s commend linked above, “none of it happened in public spaces.” Doesn’t quite sound like “parading her around” now.
December 17, 2013 at 1:00 pm
ICYMI–you’ve been mentioned in the press: http://www.christianpost.com/news/fmr-vision-forum-president-steps-down-after-admitting-to-an-affair-for-profit-biblical-patriarchy-ministry-appears-to-be-shutting-down-110889/
December 17, 2013 at 1:24 pm
I saw a “Morgan” (author of that article) posting comments over at SSB… or maybe it was here, I don’t remember which. Perhaps both.
That’s why I was curious about some people’s interest in these discussions. Of course, they could be just as curious about mine. LOL But I think I’ve already stated what my interest is.
December 17, 2013 at 4:20 pm
Pioneer Homeschooler, that is a perfect example of why we don’t rely on the press for all our news these days. They had nothing new to report. We are doing the hard work of doing all the research here.
December 17, 2013 at 4:22 pm
Yep, that was all OLD news. I just thought it was interesting that they actually mentioned the blogs that ARE reporting real news 🙂
December 17, 2013 at 1:15 pm
How do you reply when there is no reply button available on some comments?
December 17, 2013 at 1:18 pm
It’s a very confusing format, MomT. I think you just have to go up to the last comment above it that has a “Reply” button.
December 17, 2013 at 1:22 pm
Sorry about all that. I can either turn off the “reply” function altogether, which makes the conversation more difficult to follow, or if we allow replies to every comment, they get so narrow that they are unreadable. This is the best we can do with how WordPress functions at the moment. Yes, if you hit “reply” to the last comment with that option, it will reply in the correct place. 🙂
December 17, 2013 at 1:20 pm
If you’re getting email notifications for this forum, you can reply from within those emails.
December 17, 2013 at 1:22 pm
Donna – I don’t get the significance of DP and BP (or their look-a-likes) being seen in the audience….
December 17, 2013 at 1:32 pm
At the moments when DP and BP are shown in their seats in the audience, they’re *supposedly* on stage speaking. There was clearly some video cropping and/or editing of some kind done before it was posted for public viewing. So somebody messed up. But why? If it was a live scene without anything to hide and everything was on the up-and-up, why do any cropping or editing at all?
At first I thought it could have just been a coincidence (look-alikes) in the audience (though it would’ve been a very *weird* coincidence, since they had on the same outfits and hair and everything), but then I realized that those same two seats were empty when the Duggars were called onto stage. But in the beginning and ending audience shots, they ARE in their seats *while* DP is speaking from the stage. Impossible.
December 17, 2013 at 1:40 pm
Maybe people are “reading too much” into a lot of things, including this…has that thought crossed anyone’s mind?
If you really want to know, oftentimes videos are edited for any number of reasons; maybe a camera on the original was out of focus, etc. The editors will copy and paste in another segment. In this case, it appears they may have erred in that they show people on the pasted segment that were actually on the platform at the same time. Who really cares? May I suggest some need to get a life? There really isn’t something sinister behind everything DP does. In fact, Phillips probably doesn’t even know this was done.
December 17, 2013 at 1:45 pm
Bob, may I respectfully suggest that you are spending a lot of time commenting on people who need to “get a life” and this is probably taking away from your own life. You are under no compulsion to read what you consider worthless.
December 17, 2013 at 7:16 pm
Well said, Pioneer Homeschooler!
December 17, 2013 at 1:49 pm
Why do you care whether someone noticed that they messed up? I’m not even the one who originally noticed it!
Why do you feel the need to repeatedly tell other people on a public forum to get a life? (You didn’t answer my previous questions, either, so I don’t expect you to answer these.)
Why do you feel the need to respond to and “correct” me in so many of my posts?
December 17, 2013 at 2:18 pm
I’m with you, Bob. This is my first time posting here, but I have been reading for some days now. I’m all for exposing false teachers, clergy abuse and what have you, but it seems there’s too much assumption here. I’m not a follower of DP or VF, though I did buy a few products from them years ago, mostly toys and kits from their catalog. I’m not a dominionist or agree with patriarchy. I don’t have any reason to believe or disbelieve Mr. Eston or Jen, I don’t know them. Since we’re making assumptions galore here, I’ll make my own. You both have an axe to grind with DP for your own reasons and you’re having a field day. It’s like DP must repent to your satisfaction, or he must be completely destroyed, and you will see to it personally. I saw both videos and saw no impropriety on DP’s part. No “copping a feel” or lusting after his own daughter. I saw a loving dad that was extremely proud of his daughter. I’m not trying to defend his sins, what he did was despicable. It’s sin, people. DP sinned, the young lady sinned. Yes, she owns some responsibility, too. Don’t tell here she doesn’t, or make her out to be such a victim that she requires no repentance. That is very dangerous for her.
Enough, already, He’s been exposed. God will deal with DP, just a he deals with us all. This is turning into a witch hunt. Go to the Lord for healing of your wounds.
December 17, 2013 at 4:07 pm
Welcome, Jane! If the only “sin” Doug Phillips committed here was to have an inappropriate relationship with another woman, and IF he was truly repentant, then there would be much grace toward helping restore him in every way possible.
However, that is FAR from the case here. What we have here is a man who has spent the last 15 years of his life leading a double life. While he preaches “family” first, Doug Phillips spends a great deal of his time ruining and dividing families; stealing ministries and business from other believers and homeschool families; constantly resorting to tirades of rage for the slightest question; wrongfully excommunicating and terminating not only those in his own church and own ministry/business but also being heavily involved in excommunicating and terminating those in others churches, businesses, and ministries as well; directly or indirectly causing division in dozens, if not hundreds of churches nationwide; committing crimes; abusing, threatening, and otherwise bullying people privately for any multitude of reasons, none of which are biblical; threatening to sue people or otherwise blackmailing others into keeping quiet about what he has done; and on and on I could go. And I haven’t even touched on the harm his teachings has perpetrated upon thousands more.
The amount of damage caused by one man in a span of only fifteen years is simply astounding. I know dozens of stories personally, which I will not share unless given permission to share them, but I am certain there are hundreds more. No, this is not about a personal vendetta; this is about exposing a wolf in sheep’s clothing to the degree necessary that he will never be able to abuse others in this way again.
December 17, 2013 at 3:24 pm
Jane, it might seem like a witch hunt to you, but many of us have daughters that have been subject to DP’s overly affectionate ways. Many fathers saw this habit of Doug’s long ago and instructed their daughters to keep their distance (this is a fact), but many didn’t. Personally I don’t think it can be shouted loud enough, or long enough, because you know what? there are other men right behind Doug looking for the same thrills, and if by exposing the sin of this one man we might save another daughter from this kind of abuse, then bring it on.
Just because you have no history with Jen to TW does not make what happened go away, IT’S REAL, its happened. People are blogging here to raise the red flag for others to see, to see even the slightest warning sign that might indicate somethings wrong.
December 17, 2013 at 3:50 pm
NC, thank you for helping sound the much-needed alarm. The louder the alarm, at this point, the more it will alert people of danger. I only wish this alarm had never been necessary. I pray that no one carries this abuse forward.
December 17, 2013 at 7:15 pm
I agree with you overall, NC. Some of this does seem to reach a bit too far sometimes, but in general, its helped me to make sense of some of the things I am personally observing in my own (very much loved) church. For that, I’m grateful. The enemy is crafty. Eph. 6.
December 17, 2013 at 3:47 pm
You’re wrong. The woman is a victim of clergy sexual abuse. She’s also likely a victim of spiritual abuse. If you’ve never conversed with such a victim or bothered to become familiar with how clergy sexual abuse happens or what victims of it have to say, then you would find it comfortable to so easily dismiss it. I was once as ignorant as you. Then I met victims and heard their stories. I don’t know any of these people but I’ve had personal contact with many survivors of such abuse and the stories are the same.
As for the creepy contact – it’s critical that we be allowed to name discomfort because it encourages others to acknowledge their own. Our culture has eencouraged women to be people pleasers. And it seems the VF culture is even worse. When we swallow our discomfort, we deny our intuition and our ability to control our own bodies. Ever notice how men will ask women to “just smile, it can’t be that bad”? Often to strange women. And the women often then feel obliged to smile. The men do it for their own comfort because it makes them feel better. And the women smile because we’ve been taught to want to make others comfortable.
Right now you’re asking us to smile and shut up so you’ll feel more comfortable. So I will in response say, “No” and suggest you learn more about clergy sexual abuse and what it looks like.
December 17, 2013 at 4:04 pm
Jane, here’s a link that gives more info and has links to a study done at Baylor and to some case studies. The case studies would be especially helpful because they would help you understand how a minister uses power abusively. http://www.baylor.edu/clergysexualmisconduct/
December 17, 2013 at 5:37 pm
It appears to me by your questions that what I have been sharing is hitting home. I haven’t necessarily paid attention to who has posted what as I really don’t care who it is. I am not picking on you, but if what I say causes you to react, then maybe I am hitting on something. If the shoe fits, wear it.
You are asking me to answer your questions. I think I have answered them already. In fact, on the “Mother of the Year” video I addressed what probably happened and why we shouldn’t care yet you persist in asking why I care that someone noticed that they messed up, etc. It is a distraction from the main issue that this blog addresses. I think I already stated that, but now I have addressed that question twice for you. I don’t plan to address the other ones again because addressing them once should be enough.
December 17, 2013 at 7:28 pm
Jen, like I said, I have no reason to believe you or not. I’m not here to defend DP. I sense a lot of hatred and bitterness here in the comments and it seemed to me, based on a couple of videos, some were alluding to an incestuous relationship with his daughter. Because they thought he gave her some creepy looks, was holding her hand or giving her a hug? I saw nothing creepy, I saw a loving father and an adoring daughter, that’s it. Please don’t read more into it than it actually is. Accusations like that, even when proven false, can still destroy lives.
About “Cassandra” do you people really believe she has no responsibility in the whole situation? None whatsoever?A grown woman in her twenties having an affair with a married man while caring for his children has nothing to repent for? Do you think she will stand before the Lord someday and say, “Sorry, it’s not my fault, I was brainwashed?” As a younger woman she may have been duped or had a lapse in judgment, but to carry on in an affair for so long as a grown woman who knew the definition of adultery. OK, let’s just say for arguments sake that she didn’t know it was a sin. Well we all know she does now. She cannot blame her sins on another, she needs to repent for her part, whether DP does or not.
I may sound harsh or callous towards you who have been hurt by clergy/sexual abuse, but I assure you I’m not. Please don’t let your hurt, anger and bitterness destroy you. I sense a lot of that here in the comments. I have experienced abuse, not sexual but mental/emotional/spiritual as a child and on into adulthood and it took me 50+ years to come to the realization that I had not really forgiven my abuser, even though I thought I had for all those years. When I really forgave my abuser (they never repented), as the Lord Jesus Christ has forgiven me of all my heinous sins, the burden lifted and I am free. I can’t believe the joy I now have that I missed for so many years. I now only pity my abuser and pray for their repentance.
And Jackie, I’m perfectly comfortable whether you smile and shut up or not.
December 17, 2013 at 7:44 pm
Jane, yes, Cassandra needs to take full responsibility for her sins as well. I agree.
I am glad that you have forgiven those who abused you. I have as well. However, sometimes it takes time to go through that whole process and this is also a safe place for people to process their emotions as they each deal with this in their own way. Please feel free to share how you were finally able to forgive, but at the same time, remember how long it took you to finally get there, and give others as much grace in their journey as God gave you in yours. 🙂
December 17, 2013 at 7:52 pm
Jane, Thank you for sharing your experience. I’d love to know how you went from feeling like you had forgiven to really forgiving. I experienced the same. Bless you.
December 17, 2013 at 8:04 pm
“I am not picking on you, but if what I say causes you to react, then maybe I am hitting on something. If the shoe fits, wear it.”
Ahh… So you DO care about my responses and purposely seek ways to cause me to react. Let me assure you, Bob (as I’m chuckling and shaking my head)…. My reactions are NOT because anything you’ve said is “hitting home”. Rather, my reactions are simply due to the fact that I perceive you as being just like DP…. someone who insists on being right ALL the time, who believes himself to be smarter than everyone else on the page, and especially if they don’t agree with you. I think you just like to argue and debate, and you like to WIN, regardless of others’ experience or education on a matter.
But I would caution you to not be so sure of yourself. It is not your duty to correct everyone else, anyway. Perhaps you learned more from DP during the 2.5 years you were at BCA (that was you, right?) than you’re now willing to admit. And yet you do admit it by your repeated pontificating.
December 20, 2013 at 9:36 am
December 17, 2013 at 8:09 pm
Absolutely it takes time, and I sympathize and each one has to come to this realization, some sooner, some later. But I would also add that posting videos, nit-picking them and making assumptions about someone, fueling the bitterness and resentment in the process is not helping. Especially when you’ve got others encouragement and agreement in doing it.
Perhaps you should use your blog and your commenting section as a way to encourage forgiveness and prayer for Doug Phillips, his true repentance and restoration, and his devastated family, instead of a Doug Phillips hate-fest. It would much more constructive and edifying for the Body of Christ.
December 17, 2013 at 8:22 pm
Jane, I agree that we all need to pray for Doug and his family. That is a fantastic idea!
December 17, 2013 at 8:39 pm
Jane – I am curious as to why you are here. According to your comment:
“This is my first time posting here, but I have been reading for some days now. I’m all for exposing false teachers, clergy abuse and what have you, but it seems there’s too much assumption here. I’m not a follower of DP or VF, though I did buy a few products from them years ago, mostly toys and kits from their catalog. I’m not a dominionist or agree with patriarchy. I don’t have any reason to believe or disbelieve Mr. Eston or Jen, I don’t know them. Since we’re making assumptions galore here, I’ll make my own. You both have an axe to grind with DP for your own reasons and you’re having a field day. It’s like DP must repent to your satisfaction, or he must be completely destroyed, and you will see to it personally.”
You are not a “follower” of DP or VF, dominionist, or patriarchy. Why would you hang out for “some days now” reading all this “hate-filled propaganda”? You accuse Jen and others of making assumptions and then proceed to make your own about Jen, TW and all the other “assumers” and “axe-grinders.” This is a free country. If you don’t like the tone of this blog – why not start your own instead of trying to shame others into being silent. Others who were “followers” to any degree – whether in a small or large way – whether in the inner or very outer circle – who are still reeling from this revelation and are trying to figure out how they were taken in by this charlatan. Much of my questions and curiosity about DP, VF, BCA, NCFIC, etc., are attempts to figure out myself and my propensity to ignore the red flags that I had and to try to guard myself against being duped again in the future.
December 17, 2013 at 8:49 pm
MomT, What you said here – “Much of my questions and curiosity about DP, VF, BCA, NCFIC, etc., are attempts to figure out myself and my propensity to ignore the red flags that I had and to try to guard myself against being duped again in the future.” – I think would ring true for many of us. Its the value of this blog. There is a bit of weeding out to do, but I’ve seen another blog that seems to revel in these turn of events and the tone and maybe even the purpose is very different from what I see on this blog overall. Jen has a way of monitoring this blog in a way that keeps the more “snarky” posters less fulfilled and they tend to die off the thread. Thankfully – because I’ve been very grateful for this exchange. There have been many times when I’ve seen red flags before I had ever heard of spiritual abuse and ignored them or just turned on myself only to reel from it later. One person wrote (I believe) that this could be a place for those who suffered from clergy sexual abuse to share, but the scope is much wider. I read a book years ago that I would recommend entitled, “The Subtle Power of Spiritual Abuse.” Bless you.
December 20, 2013 at 9:09 am
Well said. My feelings exactly.
December 17, 2013 at 8:44 pm
It’s a long story, as you can imagine! But in a nutshell, I never realized the depth of my own sin, the fact that I was no better than my abuser, until a couple of wise, humble and sincere pastors brought me to that realization through their expository teaching of the scriptures, and their counsel, and then my own study of the scriptures. I am just as great a sinner as Doug Phillips, though I haven’t abused and manipulated people to the extent he seems to have done, it’s still in me and I’m just as capable of what he did. But God is gracious and merciful and he saved me and opened my eyes. I pray He is just as gracious and merciful to DP as he was to me.
It’s just that I get the feeling there are not many here that feel the same way, and I pray for their hearts too. I get the feeling that there are those here that would just as soon DP have to face the wrath of God and that chills me to the bone, and saddens me. Blessings to you too.
December 17, 2013 at 9:05 pm
Thanks so much, Jane. I recently visited home and realized I have arrived yet 🙂 But I really want to – I really appreciate your response. Its simple, but I guess its also the timing of when you hear it – I don’t want to lose another moment due to a hard heart that has the right theological answers, but no heart change. I see that I am more like my offender every day. You’ve really helped me. Thank you.
I think you are right in a general sense, but the picture is just deeper and bigger than you and I may know. I have a relative that has literally all but completely lost her mental health following these teachings. I should say that it has happened during the time of following these teachings – maybe she was predisposed, I’m not her doctor, but I know what she has told me. I know what her family is going through. Its one of the most heartbreaking things I’ve ever witnessed.
Some people DO seem like they are enjoying this too much, but I can tell you that I honestly think there is a sense of the pendulum effect. Having been led one way and then veering to the other side in a lot of pain. There is more pain and fear here than you might realize. People just handle it differently – everyone is in differing stages of healing or coming out of denial or anger…. So, I hope you stay and add comfort and prayer and compassion. If you become more aware of the cult mentality that many here have experienced, and the pain of finding your way again, I think it will make more sense.
Thank you, again. You are a blessing.
December 17, 2013 at 9:13 pm
But Jane, Scripture is very clear that the greater responsibility goes to the teachers, not the students. It isn’t that any of us *want* Doug to have to face the wrath of God. On the contrary! MANY here have said that they desire to see true repentance and change in his heart and life. But if he refuses to repent, then yes, he WILL face the wrath of God. As will ANY of us who don’t repent and turn from our sins. That’s not me talking, or Jen, or anybody else. That’s Scripture.
Was Eve held responsible for her sin the Garden? Yes, she sure was! She didn’t get off scott free because “the devil made her do it”. She had a responsibility to do the right thing. She knew what the right thing WAS. But she believed a lie…. the lie that was told to her with just a little bit of truth mixed in. Adam, however, was held to a *greater* responsibility than she was. Scripture says that it’s in ADAM that we all have a sin nature.. In the “first Adam”, as it says. It’s because of HIS sin (not Eve’s) that we are all born with a sin nature. Then the “second Adam” being Christ, which is the only One who can redeem us from those sins because Christ did not HAVE a sin nature (due in part to the virgin birth – Luke 1 and 2).
I Cor. 15:21-21 ~ “For since by man came death, by Man also came the resurrection of the dead. For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all shall be made alive.”
Romans 5:12-19 ~ “Therefore, just as through one man sin entered the world, and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men, because all sinned— (For until the law sin was in the world, but sin is not imputed when there is no law. Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over those who had not sinned according to the likeness of the transgression of Adam, who is a type of Him who was to come. But the free gift is not like the offense. For if by the one man’s offense many died, much more the grace of God and the gift by the grace of the one Man, Jesus Christ, abounded to many. And the gift is not like that which came through the one who sinned. For the judgment which came from one offense resulted in condemnation, but the free gift which came from many offenses resulted in justification. For if by the one man’s offense death reigned through the one, much more those who receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness will reign in life through the One, Jesus Christ.) Therefore, as through one man’s offense judgment came to all men, resulting in condemnation, even so through one Man’s righteous act the free gift came to all men, resulting in justification of life. For as by one man’s disobedience many were made sinners, so also by one Man’s obedience many will be made righteous.”
Anyway, THAT is why you see much “condemnation” of DP and not so much of Cassandra. First off, this story isn’t about Cassandra…. it’s about DP and the damage that HE has done, not only to Cassandra, but to many others as well. It’s not about letting Cassandra off the hook at ALL. I’m sure she’s been dealing with her issues, and (I hope) been spending a vast amount of time on her knees in prayer since last January when they were caught. But secondly, while she was certainly an adult already when the relationship was discovered, we don’t know what kinds of lies and hopes he fed to her during their many-year relationship, which began when she was still very young and inexperienced. And THAT is part of what so many want to know — exactly WHAT lies has he been living all this time?
Many people “out there” in the real world take many years to mature and “get” what’s going on, especially if they’re in an abusive and controlling relationship. How much more so for one who’s been sheltered as greatly as Cassandra would have been for all those years?
I’ll also refer again to the Scripture I posted above from Matt. 23:1-15, where Jesus Himself directly condemned the hypocritical Pharisees for their deceiving the weak and naive. “Therefore you will receive greater condemnation.”
December 17, 2013 at 9:17 pm
Donna, while I agree that the focus here is on Doug, Cassandra was not sheltered. She didn’t grow up in patriarchy.
December 17, 2013 at 9:25 pm
Jen, I assumed that her family came “into” the VF world somehow along the way, so I’d think she would’ve been fairly sheltered from at least that point on? But maybe she already a good bit of worldly experience prior to their VF life?
December 17, 2013 at 9:31 pm
Yes. I think she was around 14-15 when she came into the patriarchy world. And rather than spending all her time at home like most stay-at-home daughters, she actually was a world traveler and attended many events and conferences each year, being exposed to much more of real life than most.
December 18, 2013 at 7:43 am
Donna – thank you for reminding us of the scripture and it’s truths. That is the answer for all of us. That is where this train (DP/VF) left the rail and that is why we have this huge train wreck today. We all have to learn to separate our opinions from biblical truth – in the way we internalize what others say to us and the way we present our beliefs to others.
December 18, 2013 at 7:56 am
Also – in response to Cassandra and her mental state/maturity/responsibility, I keep thinking of a story from my past. When I went to college I was very active in the Baptist Student Union (BSU). Overtime, I noticed that the BSU director liked to tell coarse and inappropriate jokes. One time he even accidentally brushed up against my breast and then commented “That was nice.” Looking back through 20 years of time and experience, I can see now that he was totally inappropriate. But at the time, I made excuses for him because I could not believe that an older, “mature” christian leader would behave this way. I thought he was just trying to be cool and fit in with the college crowd and this was the only way he knew to do so. A couple of years after I left that college, he was caught going to strip clubs and boozing it up after he had dropped all the BSU college students off at our annual leadership conference. I was not surprised. I knew the bible verse that says “Whatever is in a man’s heart will come out of his mouth.” But I just didn’t believe what I saw with my own eyes and heard with my own ears. The funny thing is, I still ignore those red flags all too often. As I said earlier – that is why I think this blog is so beneficial for me and others. When I hear other people’s stories and opinions it helps me validate the red flags that I had and is teaching me to not ignore them in the future.
December 18, 2013 at 11:49 am
MomT, I think we often don’t want to see the red flags. They are there, but for some reason, we ignore them. We don’t want to burst our bubble just yet.
Perhaps we will find a bubble a little less fragile the next time around. 🙂
December 17, 2013 at 8:52 pm
Mom T, well said. It is like group therapy for survivors of a disaster. And what some people don’t get is that healing happens when you are encouraged to tell your story multiple times. Hearing other pieces helps the healing too and is so important. This isn’t triangulation – let me tell you so you’ll hate him too. It’s “what exactly happened back there?” And “here’s my story and what I know.”
December 17, 2013 at 9:09 pm
December 17, 2013 at 9:16 pm
Yes, this is a free country, and if Jen allows my commenting on her blog, why shouldn’t I? Are you trying to shame me into being silent? Are you asking me to leave because you don’t like what I’m saying? Am I not “getting with the program” of most of the other commenters? Are you a Christian? Perhaps I’m here because Jen is a professing believer and I see things written here that she allows, that are not very Christian in tone. There’s nothing wrong with questioning, trying to make sense of what happened, and how you could have been so wrong about someone, telling your story. But then it starts to deteriorate into assumptions that can’t be proven, personal attacks, and bitterness and resentment that is encouraged. DP should be exposed for things that are true about him, not what can’t be proven, and juvenile hearsay.
I suppose I ended up here out of curiosity, and to my shame, the sensational nature of the story. I made my “assumptions” about Jen and Mr. Eston as a way to point out that I am assuming things that may or may not be true or I can never prove, just as is being done to DP. Jen may ban me if she likes.
December 17, 2013 at 9:35 pm
I am fairly liberal with allowing people to express their own opinions here, as long as they are respectful to one another. I realize that everyone needs to walk their own journey in life, and it is not my place to “keep them in line.” I have certain boundaries, and I will step in now and then to guide the conversation in a different direction, but for the most part, I welcome whomever wishes to be here.
Doug Phillips made a habit of judging people, both outwardly and inwardly. My intent is to love them instead. 🙂
December 18, 2013 at 8:12 am
Jane – your tone doesn’t sound very christian. I was only pointing out that if you think this blog should only be about praying for DP and you don’t like the tone here – you can start your own “Pray for DP Blog.” I have read several times from Jen and others that we need to pray for DP’s true repentance and for restoration with his family so that was a false accusation. Jen can not be held responsible for everyone’s attitude that comments on this blog. It is a free country and I appreciate that she lets people post who she may not always agree with. I have also heard Jen remind people to exhibit grace and to not be vulgar. I appreciate that she reminds people who want to bash homeschooling, FIC, Calvinist, Reformed tradition beliefs that you can’t judge all of these by DP’s example. BTW – I hold to all of these beliefs, but believe DP/VF has distorted them by focusing on moralism instead of scripture. I have looked at other blogs and felt like they were snarky and mean spirited. I just decided to not spend time there.
December 18, 2013 at 8:45 am
MomT, I, too, hold to all of those beliefs, although my definition of FIC is a little different than DP’s, as I believe his definition and purpose for FIC has a lot to do with keeping “outsiders” out in order to build his dynasty, being the Dominionist that he is. I also believe this is the reason for his and his peers’ extreme view of courtship. They have to protect the “plan”, and they can’t do that if they let their daughters choose their own husbands, or potential husbands who don’t agree with them 100% on everything and aren’t willing to be one of his minions in order to build the “dynasty”.
Anyway, my concern over the fact that some (many?) will now bash homeschooling, Reformed theology (which is NOT Dominionist at its roots, but many don’t realize that because the Dominionists are so vocal and visible), and even Christianity in general… the fact that many are now rejecting those ideals in and of themselves because of what DP, Botkin, Gothard, et al have done, is what concerns me the most. It just adds fuel to the fire for those who already hate and don’t understand homeschooling to begin with (like social workers, the NEA, etc.). DP and his peers have blasphemed the Word of God by their legalistic and extreme views, their teachings and Dominionist indoctrination, they have put a blight on homeschooling in general, and they’ve given ammunition to the haters of both homeschooling and conservative Christianity. THAT is my biggest concern at this point, and THAT is why these guys need to be stopped!
DP is carrying a HUGE responsibility on his shoulders…. far beyond just his problem with women, or even his finances. The problem with being someone as visible and popular as he is (was) is the FALLOUT of those who come to realize how wrong he was, and all the lives those people touch… as well as the lost world which is watching. Though I will say that for some of us, it’s actually drawn us *closer* to Christ as we know that HE is the source of our strength, not Doug Phillips, et al. I would caution Scott Brown and anyone else within the movement who’s reading this to keep that in mind and get on their knees before making another move in the same direction. It is NOT such a good thing to take DP’s place in the patriarchal world…. other than perhaps the “personal gain” that one may be seeking from it. But Scripture warns us that we cannot serve both God and Mammon, because if we try, it WILL come crashing down at some point.
December 18, 2013 at 9:29 am
Yes Donna – in their effort to “protect” the family (I hope that was their motive) they have destroyed it with their own hands. What many moralist and legalist don’t realize – or forget – is that the danger and the evil are in their own hearts. We think we can build enough walls and erect enough boundaries around us and we will be pure and victorious. All of DP’s rules (what to watch, music, art, where to place the tv, what kind of furniture to buy, what to wear etc) did not protect him from the sin in his own heart. Cassandra’s parents did not protect her by keeping her at home. We must realize our dependence on the Holy Spirit and allow him to convict and convert our hearts. Eve had the perfect husband, the perfect home, plenty of food, no fashion concerns, no competition – yet she fell. Part of the fascination of this drama is the reminder that this same evil is lurking in my own heart. Apart from the grace of God – there go I. I must run to the cross daily and depend on the Holy Spirit for my own sanctification, my children and family’s salvation and sanctification and trust in the power of the gospel for the salvation of those around me. We must give others the gospel, not our own set of rules and boundaries. Let me clarify by saying there is nothing wrong with rules and boundaries that we place on ourselves to protect us from our own sin and weaknesses, but we become legalist and pharisaical when we impose our personal rules and boundaries on others and judge their spirituality by how well they can keep them.
December 18, 2013 at 11:54 am
Donna, in a little while, when the dust settles a bit, I plan on discussing all the various issues and teachings associated with Doug Phillips and Vision Forum. I do not want people running from one extreme to another, nor I do want people thinking that the teachings were good, but Doug just didn’t follow them. There is a healthy balance here, and we will all find it together. 🙂
December 18, 2013 at 1:59 pm
December 17, 2013 at 9:40 pm
Yes, I’m in agreement with you on what you said. Cassandra may very well have been deceived and controlled. But I was getting the impression that she was being made out to be the innocent “victim” that was so brainwashed she was not in control of her own behavior, and therefore absolved of all responsibility. I thought, if she is reading this, she needs to know she needs to repent of her own sins. As was said in another comment, it may take some time, for her to get there, but it needs to be said. I care for her eternal soul. Part of my problem of being unable to forgive was my victim mentality for a good part of my life. And yes, I think DP carries a greater responsibility, being in authority.
I really have to go to bed now. Work tomorrow.
December 17, 2013 at 9:43 pm
It is a good reminder to pray for her in that regard, Jane. Thank you.
December 17, 2013 at 11:07 pm
Jane, it’s quite unnecessary for you to be preaching your messages of personal responsibility and repentance to Cassandra, effectively guilt tripping her, as you keep doing here. It’s also reckless for you to be accusing anyone here of letting Cassandra off the hook because we’re not holding her accountable, to your satisfaction. If Cassandra were as hard hearted as Doug Phillips all that might be in order, but that’s not the case at all. People who are already burdened with guilt don’t need more guilt heaped on them by you or anyone else. Contrary to Doug Phillips, Cassandra does have a conscience and is grieving over her part in this.
Secondly, you’ve been remarkably presumptuous in your comments. You need to back off with your allegations of “I sense a lot of hatred and bitterness here.” I appreciate that you’ve suffered a great deal in your own life and have struggled with those things, but I for one can do without your projections. Even if what you were accusing were true, it’s misguided. Hatred is a natural part of the grieving process when someone has been betrayed. Elisabeth Kübler-Ross documented the five steps of bereavement as:
You’re not helping anyone by accusing them of being in sin for having a God-given emotion of anger, or even hatred. Anger and hatred, in and of themselves, are not sinful. In fact the Bible calls us to hate sin and wickedness. I absolutely hate the sin and wickedness that Doug Phillips has perpetrated against so many people for so many years. It is that wickedness which has caused so much damage. But don’t confuse my hatred for Doug Phillips’ wickedness for a hatred against Doug Phillips, because I don’t hate him, nor am I bitter against him. Nor is Jen.
Just because you’ve personally experienced a great deal of hatred and bitterness, and for far more years than you probably should have before you were able to come to a place of genuine forgiveness (what Kübler-Ross calls “acceptance”), doesn’t mean that anyone else here is likewise suffering. Furthermore, just because you came to a place of believing that you were as sinful as your abuser doesn’t mean that Cassandra is every bit as sinful as Doug Phillips. In fact I will state unequivocally that you couldn’t be more wrong in saying that. Doug Phillips is evil through and through. Cassandra is no such thing and there simply is no comparison between the two.
December 18, 2013 at 12:07 am
Well said, TW, and in addition to that, I would add, again, that Doug Phillips must be held to a MUCH higher standard since he held himself out to be a teacher and a pastor and a ministry leader for all these years.
It is not our purpose or place here to discuss the specifics of Cassandra’s repentance. We will let her work that out between her and God, although she cannot simply claim “victim” status.
It is our purpose, however, to discuss the specifics of what public repentance from a very public figure would look like, and that is where our focus will remain.
Jane, I, too, feel that you are projecting your own unforgiveness (and dare I say, bitterness) upon the rest of us here. Those who have truly experienced forgiving those who are undeserving (no repentance) are usually full of grace and compassion for others who are experiencing something similar. I’m not really getting that vibe from you right now. God gave you the grace you needed to heal in your own time. We need to do the same for others as they walk their own path in this trail of destruction. It takes time to go through the five phases of grief.
December 18, 2013 at 12:15 am
T.W., I posted the link to the Baylor study on clergy misconduct (somewhere above earlier) hoping Jane would use the chance to read stories of other women in similar situations. Guilt is often their #1 emotion and one they may battle for years. It is easy for outsiders to heap on more guilt, as you say, which can drive the person further from God. I doubt anyone wants that for Cassandra but to those who claim to want her to be restored in her relationship with God, I will say you are doing more harm than good when you pile on more guilt.
December 18, 2013 at 6:00 am
If Cassandra is truly repentant, and grieving over her part in this (and you seem to know this as if you are in direct communication with her), then I apologize for assuming she is not. I am not trying to “guilt-trip” anyone, although in my experience, it was what was necessary for me to come to full forgiveness against my abuser. My guilt over my own sinfulness was necessary in the process. It was the only thing holding me back all those years.
I’m not denying the wickedness of Doug Phillips actions, or trying to deny anyone their natural feelings that come with betrayal. I felt them myself for a long time. Too long. But speaking from experience, I can tell you it was too many years of self-imposed hell, and I hate to see anyone else go through it. Anger and hatred a part of the process? Yes, but i’m not going to encourage it. I’m going to encourage love and forgiveness. In your expose of DP, in addition to relating the facts (if indeed they are facts and not heresay), you are perhaps inadvertantly encouraging hatred out of your own feelings towards him. You say you are not bitter against him, that’s not the message I’m receiving.
“Doug Phillips is evil through and through” you say, but Cassandra is not. How do you know this? Is he the devil incarnate? He has committed many evil acts, yes, and she did evil too, to a lesser degree, but evil nonetheless. Do you believe you are as sinful as Doug Phillips? To deny that is to deny scripture. Do you want justice or vengance? Search your own heart before you judge mine, DP’s or anyone else here. Think about it, please.
I’m going to leave here now, you’ll be happy to know. I really wish all of you the best in your journey and pray you come to a point of forgiveness much quicker than I did.
December 18, 2013 at 6:06 am
Hope you come again, Jane. God bless you!
December 18, 2013 at 6:34 am
T.W., I appreciate your discernment. Thank you.
December 18, 2013 at 8:29 am
Jane, I know you said you wouldn’t be back but I’m hoping you will read this anyway. Perhaps in your situation you were as guilty as the one you called your abuser. You seem to keep putting Cassandra’s mistakes on the same level as the hurt and malice Phillips directed at so many. But in that case why use the word “abuser”?
The other possibility is you’ve taken on guilt that isn’t yours to take. Sometimes we do that so we can move forward, but that doesn’t make it true. Cassandra’s actions weren’t evil, as you say. They were a mistake – trusting and believing the wrong person and not wanting to upset the apple cart. She probably knew in her gut it was weird but if she was truly so evil, what was her end game? There wasn’t one. Phillips had one. Despite your insistence that perhaps he wasn’t as guilty as alleged, there are simply too many stories in too many places that show he has a personality disorder. He’s a narcissist and will destroy lives with no empathy or regret to get what he sees as his rightful due. He has a mental disorder. Doesn’t make him not guilty but since he has been doing this for years, he needs to be stopped somehow. And he obviously won’t stop himself. Unfortunately he’s also unlikely to seek professional help. If he were reading this, he would just laugh and think I don’t want to admit how special he is.
That is the point of people speaking out here, which is why your insistence on focusing on
Cassandra is strange. I would say if you got caught up in someone’s mental disorder (and I’ve been there), while you may have made mistakes, you may also be stuck in heaping guilt on yourself, thus your persistence in heaping it on Cassandra. I’ve been stuck there too. The reality is sometimes we get caught into the swirl of the illness ourself and it distorts our view of reality. And it can happen so slowly.
If you really think of Cassandra’s actions as evil, do some research. I gave you a link earlier or just search “clergy sexual abuse adults” on the Internet and you’ll find all kinds of stories similar to what most likely happened to Cassandra. Maybe then you’ll get it. Or maybe you need to hear the stories for your own healing.
As for Phillips, it is like we put people in jail even when they have a mental disorder – to protect the public. That is all Jen and T.W. are trying to do – protect the public from a man who had a lot of power and did way too much damage.
December 17, 2013 at 2:05 pm
December 17, 2013 at 2:18 pm
bye bye VF….
December 17, 2013 at 5:04 pm
Interesting that bluebehemoth.com seems to still be up and running. Curious why that hasn’t been shut down too…
December 17, 2013 at 4:57 pm
Here is a link showing a photo from the September 2013 Greece Tour. Doug Phillips is speaking. It would be great if someone who was actually on the tour could answer your question.
December 17, 2013 at 7:58 pm
Is there some forensic facial-expression/body-language expert who can analyze the audience. Angry? Bored? Feeling trapped? Just Tired? I AM able to interpret the body language of those in the extreme upper right– physically distancing themselves from DP.
December 17, 2013 at 8:16 pm
I mistaken, or does Joshua have earbuds in while Dougie is talking?! On the far left side of the picture next to the guy in a light blue polo.
December 17, 2013 at 8:24 pm
actually, it appears quite a few people are wearing them?
December 18, 2013 at 8:24 am
Yes, I noticed that too. So weird. I am not sure which one is Joshua. That is such an odd pic. No one looks very interested !
December 17, 2013 at 8:32 pm
Yep! At least 5 to 6 people are wearing them…..They do appear to be not interested in what he has to say.
December 17, 2013 at 9:27 pm
Mrs. W, although I am sure Joshua enjoys his iPod, I sincerely doubt that his father would stand for him to be listening to it in public. However, the employees/interns and probably volunteers and even the Phillips’ children have some sort of communication system that they use with one another, involving ear buds. It is often used for security and organization at events.
December 17, 2013 at 10:41 pm
I believe they all wear earbuds during those talks to hear what the speaker is saying. Much like if you have ever been on a tour of a large museum. The speaker simply cannot shout for an hour for all attendees to hear.
December 19, 2013 at 11:05 am
EyesWideOpen is right. Some of you are so consumed with everything. When will you realize that many of your observations are just plain wrong and without merit. Again, you are a distraction to the matter at hand.
December 19, 2013 at 11:15 am
Where did eyeswideopen make this comment that you agree with because I can not find it.
December 18, 2013 at 9:51 am
If I get the timeline right, the VF board KNEW before they sent people off on a very expensive tour with Doug. Just another unconscionable action. In the photo, I think the people now KNOW also, but they’re STUCK!
December 18, 2013 at 10:20 am
Yes, you’ve got the timeline right. The Vision Forum board knew of Doug Phillips’ adultery and they let Doug go on that trip anyway. I agree it’s unconscionable.
Moreover, I’ve had it confirmed that Scott Brown was on that yacht trip too. I can’t even begin to imagine the utter shock that everyone must have felt to have discovered, while on that luxury excursion, after paying $5700 each, that the figurehead of Vision Forum had been cheating on his wife. Rather than showing any remorse for his adultery he was still trying to be the center of attention. Even after being told that he wasn’t permitted to speak he was still grabbing the microphone and playing the part of tour guide.
There’s a term that refers to the person whom no one wants at their party. In the context of the Ancient Greece Tour, it fits Doug Phillips to a tee: Turd in the punch bowl.
December 18, 2013 at 11:03 am
Oh no– Brown was on the yacht also?! I picture him and Phillips on the bridge of the SS Vision Forum, fighting over the wheel, running her aground, and “accidentally” falling into lifeboats while shouting, “Women and Children First!”
December 18, 2013 at 11:15 am
You forgot to add, “I shouldn’t say that because that is gossip…”
December 18, 2013 at 12:07 pm
I just enlarged the photo of the crowd in Turkey.
There must be 50 or so people sitting on the steps. Only about 6 seem to be looking at him.
December 17, 2013 at 10:12 pm
The term, “narcissistic sociopath” has been brought up quite a bit. My MIL is a bona fide sociopath and the stories my husband and his siblings relate about their upbringing are pretty awful. The lies, manipulation, verbal abuse, favoritism, humiliation tactics, to name a few things that went on; and continue to this very day though the lady is 88 years old are just heartbreaking. My father in law was a classic abused spouse who ended up throwing his children under the bus in order to spare himself. If DP is indeed a sociopath, I sure hope his wife and children can get as far away from him as possible. No amount of therapy ever cure these types. Believe me.
December 17, 2013 at 11:14 pm
I have been following this blog with some fascination. I am a conservative pastor with a wonderful marriage, a wonderful family–five children, all homeschooled. Our church is not large, but we are happy in the LORD. I am thanking the LORD for His keeping power in my life and in the life of my family and our church. As I read this blog I am afresh reminded “not to despise the day of small things.” This shocking disclosure of DP/VF is a reminder to me that someday God is going to say to many people, and I hope to be one of them–“thou hast been faithful over a few things”. This blog is among other things a reminder to me to live in God’s promised New Covenant strength. New Covenant Pastor,
December 17, 2013 at 11:57 pm
Welcome, New Covenant Pastor! Keeping our eyes on Jesus will keep us faithful in the little things. It is so good to live under the freedom and love of the New Covenant rather than the legalism taught by Doug Phillips. Thank you for a good reminder that we can all learn lessons from serious situations like this, and that we do not need to go down this same road.
I look forward to that day when God will say, “Well done, my good and faithful servant.” May I always be faithful to what He has called me to be. Thanks for the good words!
December 18, 2013 at 11:46 am
Maybe DP should watch more movies. My kiddos were watching Despicable Me this morning and I heard Gru say to his minions, “I’m here to put the rumors to rest. They are all true.”
December 18, 2013 at 1:58 pm
December 18, 2013 at 6:59 pm
Dear Mr or Ms Eston,
As I asked before, please, who are you, and why should we believe your report & analysis?
With over 850 comments in this thread it’s pretty much impossible for us to keep up on every comment.
Hence, I may have missed your bio and credentials.
Also, you say that “openly speculating about Doug Phillips’ sexual preferences is purely salacious and inappropriate for this blog.”
Fine. I don’t know why get to make that call, but OK.
Then: The only reason we’ve openly discussed Doug’s clergy sexual abuse (and it most definitely was with a woman, not a man – hence “Cassandra” not “Bob”) is because there is hard evidence to support it.
OK, would you please produce or direct us to some?
Finally: There isn’t a shred of evidence to support that Doug Phillips is gay or bisexual. So unless there are insiders who step forward with proof, we’re not going to be entertaining such speculations here.
OK, but how do we know you’re an “insider”? Or are you? Who are you, and why should we believe you and follow your directives here?
December 18, 2013 at 7:21 pm
I do not know where place my reply, but I’ve just noticed lots of DP videos still up at vimeo.com. Please would someone explain how homeschooling families could afford the trips, mega conferences, and just the crazy clothing worn at the historical celebrations (forgive me if someone loves to dress up–I just think it’s not practical!) I have helped organize statewide homeschooling conferences and we heard complaints of charging too much, but it was way, way less than any VF trip, tea, conference, etc. We are blessed that my husband has a stable and good-paying job, but we would never lay out the extravagant amount of $ needed for such VF conferences. Were most of the attendees successful entrepreneurs only? I really don’t get it.
December 19, 2013 at 11:11 am
Exactly, Grace alone. And therein lies part of the problem.
December 20, 2013 at 5:15 pm
I appreciate you writing this, Jen. Too many well intentioned people are misled by charismatic sociopaths like DP, and our culture needs to stop protecting these cult leaders.
December 20, 2013 at 6:11 pm
Kathleen, actually TW Eston wrote this incredible article, but I agree that we need to stop protecting charismatic sociopaths!
December 20, 2013 at 7:13 pm
Jen (or anyone else, please) – Have we any corroboration or confirmation of Mr/ Ms T.W. Eston’s claims and analysis? And who is this mysterious reporter?
December 20, 2013 at 7:17 pm
Hugh, TW and I work very closely together on every article. Each and every detail and fact is closely scrutinized for accuracy before we publish. Mr. Eston has been a close personal friend of mine for many years now and I trust him explicitly.
At this point, we are willing to hear any refutations of anything we have posted, and we promise we will follow through on researching it. Thanks!
December 27, 2013 at 7:50 pm
Some or all are throwing the baby out with the bath water. Just because Doug Phillips abused his position in his sphere of influence does NOT mean that intergrated *sp churches are bad, keeping our daughters at home till marriage is bad, homeschooling and desiring your children to raise their families to homeschool is bad….seriously! All these things are a wonderful way to keep our children safe. We must be careful of every person that comes into our lives. Not living paranoid but just guarding our kids.
December 27, 2013 at 8:51 pm
Yes, Connie, I agree (as do many of us here) that those goals in and of themselves are not bad. The problem with the people we’re discussing, and the reason for Jen’s blog, is the fact that these men are wolves in sheeps’ clothing, deceiving and taking advantage of those who simply desire some help and support along the way. The problem is the MOTIVES behind what they teach and do….. money, power, and unBiblical goals for themselves and anyone else they can get drawn into their camp. Do you understand exactly what Dominion Theology is?
December 28, 2013 at 8:26 pm
No Donna I am unsure of what that is. And rest assured that I have no problems with this blog. I didn’t know a lot about what happened until I came here and found out the depth of Doug’s sin. And while I am commanded to forgive, I have a hard time with it after finding out that he didn’t come forward willingly and it went on for YEARS! I’m still in shock.
December 27, 2013 at 9:07 pm
As a parent of 6 and grandparent of 18, iI must respectfully disagree with Connie. 8 of my homeschooled children will probably not be safe because they have no survival or critical thinking skills. They have been thoroughly brainwashed in the ATI/VF movement. They are isolated and when they do have fellowship it is always with “like minded” people. Their mother( my daughter) who is only 43 looks older than I do. The stress and work of 8 children under the Patriarch/reconstruction/dominionist movement has aged her before her time.
My other 10 grandchildren are being brought up in mainline churches and are in public or Christian schools. Even with the faults I see in these school systems I am not nearly as worried at the lack of preparedness as with the homeschoolers
December 27, 2013 at 9:24 pm
Leslie, you’re assuming that ALL homeschooled children are being raised in this kind of environment. This simply isn’t true. the problem is NOT homeschooling in and of itself. There are thousands, no millions, of homeschooled children and graduates who are very well-adjusted, who can relate well to people of all ages, who do attend college and do VERY WELL both academically and socially, who are involved in many outside activities such as community service, sports, band, dance, musical instruments of all kinds, national competitions which include ALL students no matter where they attend “school”, 4-H, AWANA, read a plethora of genres in books, watch (and analyze) many different kinds of movies, learn (and excel in) the higher maths and sciences, logic, debate, etc., etc., etc.
Please don’t lump ALL homeschoolers in with your daughter and grandchildren. I understand that you are grieving of the “loss” of them, but truly and honestly, the problem is not the fact that your daughter has chosen to homeschool (educate them at home). The problem is the ATI/VF teachings that she’s gotten caught up in.
Besides, I’ve known many, many PUBLIC schooled children who are lacking in survival and critical thinking skills. Far more of those than homeschooled children, in fact! TOO many. Don’t even get me started on some of my extended family members, and shall we talk about politics and the media, too?
Please don’t blame homeschooling — in and of itself — for the grave errors that it sounds like your daughter and her dh are living in. Many of us have been victims of ATI/VF teachings to some degree or another, and while most or all of those victims may be homeschooling, many homeschoolers, OTOH, have nothing at all to do with such groups.
December 27, 2013 at 9:46 pm
All those extracurricular activities you have mentioned have been denied them. And you are right I am grieving the loss. And I blame myself fr introducing my daughter to the Basic Youth seminars. However, at some point people need to speak out and point out how all this extra biblical nonsense can be worse than growing up in a non Christian home. Our children who became Christians later in life seem to have a better grasp of Biblical Principles and the common sense to apply them that the Fundies.
December 27, 2013 at 9:54 pm
Leslie, I’m not disagreeing with you on that! Yes, we DO need to speak out. But your post above sounded like the children’s isolation is because of the fact that she homeschools… but it’s not. Homeschoolers (not the ATI/VF ones) CAN and DO have many opportunities.
Don’t blame yourself for your daughter and her husband’s decisions. It is *they* who are denying your grandchildren those opportunities…. not you. Was she married when you introduced her to the Gothard stuff? Is she married now? Her husband plays a big part in this, too, you know. And remember (with mercy) that they’re caught up in a web of lies… pray that their eyes will be opened.
December 29, 2013 at 1:03 am
So true. I’ve been homeschooling for several years and not once used anything ATI or VF. So thankful to be able to homeschool.
December 28, 2013 at 8:36 pm
Leslie while I love the homeschooling thing and the family integrated churches, I understand the readiness that you speak of. While I desire and do these things I also allow public tv (some) movies, interaction with folks that are “not like us”. And my church is far from perfect and my family is far from perfect and we go to malls and eat out and do things “normal” people do. I don’t know the lifestyle of folks who raised their kids like the Phillips enough to make a call on it. I see some amazing things and actually the only bad thing I see about it is the predator factor (and that can happen anywhere) and the “ready for the real world” factor you spoke of. My sons are in baseball and we watch football on tv so we are definitely not steeped in that lifestyle.
December 27, 2013 at 10:46 pm
She was about 14 when my husband took her to IBYC. She was our third child to go. She married at age 21 and got her husband involved. Together they went way beyond what we had taught and encouraged. They chastised our youngest daughter, who was then 15, for playing contemporary Christian music. The then 5 year old granddaughter called our 15 year old a Jezebel because she was wearing a short skirt. This would be so funny if it wasn’t so tragic. Such a tragic waste of lives. I have seen the redemptive power of Jesus Christ in many lives. It is better to know you are a sinner saved by grace than to think you are the elite who’s works will save. That is just the opinion of a hurting Mom and Grandmother. We have 5 other children and 10 other grandchildren, but we still go after those who are lost ( to us)
December 28, 2013 at 9:15 pm
I am appreciative of this article which brings up clergy sexual abuse with a poster from The Hope of Survivors, 4 Major Imbalances. Clergy sexual abuse is rampant among churches (all religions), small and big, denominations, non-denominations, etc. Your hear of child sexual abuse among churches, but when sexual abuse involves an adult female or male and a spiritual leader, it is conveniently labeled as an affair, and the victim is silenced and forgotten. DP’s resignation letter and our senior pastor’s resignation letter due to clergy sexual abuse was eerie similar. I grieve and pray for the young lady and that she is getting proper help as well as the body who was affected by this sin. It is time that spiritual leaders and church members become aware of clergy sexual abuse and that we hold one another accountable. Jesus warns us of wolves in sheep’s clothing. I hope it is all right that I suggest here for the readers to visit The Hope of Survivors, http://www.thehopeofsurvivors.com – they help victims, clergy, their families, and the body. Their help and support were tremendous. Also, read Executive Summary of Clergy Sexual Misconduct study done by Baylor University, http://www.baylor.edu/clergysexualmisconduct/index.php?id=67406 I wished our church was made aware of clergy sexual abuse and knew of some of warning signs of predatory spiritual leaders. Thank you.
December 29, 2013 at 5:06 pm
Yokko, thank you for providing those resources. I am sorry that you have gone through something similar. I hope your church was able to find healing in the long run.
January 7, 2014 at 3:39 pm
I would take issue with the statement that “integrated churches are OK”. They are not ok, they are an extra-bibical, man birthed idea being promoted as the only bibical way a church can function. I have yet to see any integrated churches that don’t make that claim when they slam youth ministeries and Sunday schools.
Homeschool families are targeted by these types of church planters for obvious reasons. Anyone denying the elitist attitude of these folks is a newbie to their world or committed to the “party line”.
January 7, 2014 at 3:55 pm
January 14, 2014 at 2:57 pm
I have had indirect experience with Doug Phillips and his Boerne Church community. The only portion of this whole scandal which shocked me was that his affair was with a female. As someone who holds a PhD in Old Testament studies, and have taken MANY classes in the New Testament as well, I can tell you — this guy and his community are nut-jobs. They need to first learn the ancient languages before they open their traps. But, clearly, they have no real earnest desire to learn and grow or understand the messages of the Bible. They run a business — and a successful one I might add — preying on the uneducated. So sad, but that is life.
January 14, 2014 at 3:19 pm
Hi Jessica! Welcome! You are free to tell us about your indirect experiences here, if you would like, but also why you were shocked it was with a woman. I know others have briefly mentioned this possibility, but I am only interested in why you would say this.
If I write a few articles about what the Bible says about these subjects, I hope you will chime in! It sounds like you have a fantastic background!
January 14, 2014 at 3:38 pm
I would love to. I know Hebrew and Greek, as well as Aramaic (and several other ancient and modern languages). I am an Episcopalian. For instance, the word in Hebrew oftentimes translated as Helpmeet is also used in the Bible to refer to God’s relationship to humankind. God is humankind’s helpmeet. Therefore, if one wants to suggest that this is a term of subordination, then they have to also conclude that God is subordinate to humankind (which I do not know any Christian who wants to go there). I can write out the whole Hebrew, exegetical argument. (if you want to talk more privately about my source of knowledge regarding the Doug Phillips and his sexuality, let me know). We can arrange something. Email me, directly.
January 14, 2014 at 4:37 pm
We recently heard in a sermon (in a great PCA) that helpmeet is a term used for God (in one of the persons of the Trinity–not sure). The pastor said it is not therefore a term of derision or subjection.
January 14, 2014 at 6:53 pm
I went to a PCUSA Seminary (MA, MDiv). I would be interested to hear what the PCA had to say — since traditionally, they do not ordain women (although that is slowly changing).
January 14, 2014 at 4:50 pm
This is another sad saga in the church that has abdicated its responsibility to be the ground and pillar of the truth. We are all held accountable to study to show ourselves approved rightly dividing the Word of truth. If what comes from the pulpit doesn’t agree with the Scriptures our first responsibility is to approach the pastor and point that out. If they won’t listen then it is time to move on. The sleight of hand used by Phillips in turning husband against wife by his unbiblical preaching regarding submission kept everyone in the throes of his power. After reading about Jen’s and Mark’s experience with this false teacher, and knowing about his infidelity, I wasn’t surprised that the time frame of when they were subjected to his dishonest,hateful counsel and ultimately his unbiblical rejection of their family, coincided with his adultery. It was a marvel to me that they tried so honestly and earnestly to be reconciled to this evil worker. As God’s beloved children through faith in Jesus Christ we are under no obligation to false teachers other than to expose and reject them. Our loyalty is to God Almighty and we must fight the good fight of faith upholding the truth and exposing what wicked workers do in secrecy. Thank you for giving a more thorough expose of this false teacher and labeling the congregation what it is, a cult. I am sure you have no joy in doing so, but the truth spoken in love is used by our Savior to set sinners free, praise His name. God bless you and praise Him for His watchcare over you and yours.:)
January 14, 2014 at 7:48 pm
Eliza, thank you for your kind words. You are correct that I take no joy in doing this. I do take joy in setting prisoners free, however, so that is what I will be available to help with, for whoever wants to be set free.
January 14, 2014 at 7:00 pm
I was discussing this incident with my husband today (he is a career councilor for prison inmates at a state prison in PA). Anyways, he brought up a good point. I kept saying that “Doug was caught having an affair with a 16 year old.” He stopped me and quickly chimed in — stating (correctly) — “That is not an affair; that is rape.” Sometimes even I — a proud feminist — need reminded that I need to call a spade a spade.
January 14, 2014 at 7:08 pm
I am not sure where you read about an affair with a 16 year old? This blog’s editors have said that it appears the affair began around age 18, I think. But I may have missed a comment or post to the contrary.
January 14, 2014 at 7:15 pm
I might have missed something as well. I thought I had read, on various other sites, that she was employed with them from 14 onward and the affair probably started at 16? I could be wrong. Either way, the fact that he held a position of authority over her (as her employer) makes, in my opinion, the situation even more problematic.
January 14, 2014 at 7:42 pm
She began working part-time as a nanny for the Phillips at 14 or 15, as did many other young girls. After a while, the field was narrowed, and when she was 18, she was working as a nanny full-time. “Working” does not mean she was paid. While we were at BCA, the nannies “served” these families without pay. I do not know if that changed later on. We do not know at what age the affair began — yet.
February 18, 2014 at 11:49 pm
I am new to your blog and all this information is troubling to say the least. You mentioned photos about Doug Phillips with his nanny but I couldn’t find any on the web after searching. Do you have some links?
I was also wondering where you got that picture about the nanny and engagement ring. Do you know her personally enough to have that kind of picture?
February 19, 2014 at 11:18 am
Leah, that photo of her ring was a still frame taken from a VF video. However, I do know her personally well enough to know that her father gave her a promise ring and that is the one you now see on her right hand. She used to wear it on her left hand. Many photos and videos have disappeared from online, so I do not have any that are not publicly available. Welcome!
February 19, 2014 at 9:58 pm
Speaking of clergy sexual abuse allegations, here is one pastor’s open letter to Bill Gothard on a similar subject. He opens strong, but I think his ending is too weak.
February 20, 2014 at 7:02 am
Jen, the problem with all of these heartfelt appeals to Gothard,in my opinion, is that they are soft appeals for repentance to a FALSE TEACHER. I just don’t get why these people don’t just call him that and get the heck away from his organization.
ATI is filled with legalistic false doctrine disguised as personal holiness, in my opinion.. I throw up in my mouth a little when people address him as still a hero, who has just sinned. If the allegations as true, he is a stinking hypocrite who preached one thing and lived another. People with fruit like that who allow others to bow and worship them are not from God.
I went to a wedding where BG attended. What took the cake for me, is when the wedding ceremony and reception turned into a hero worship session of Bill Gothard, where he even stood to promote some new book. My only thought was, “What kind of ego does it take to steal the attention away from a bride on her wedding day?”
May 21, 2014 at 2:42 pm
Doug could be on Texas TV!
In the April 5 issue of WORLD, we reported on the closing of Vision Forum Ministries (VFM), and the fall of its leader Doug Phillips. In October of last year, Phillips resigned as president of VFM, admitting to a “lengthy, inappropriate relationship” with an unmarried woman that included “an inappropriate physical component.” Yesterday, attorneys for that woman filed a complaint in a San Antonio court against Phillips, VFM, and Vision Forum Inc. (VFI), the for-profit company Phillips owns.
The complaint identifies the woman…, a former member of Phillips’ church, Boerne Christian Assembly (BCA) near San Antonio. (____, recently married ____, who also attended BCA for years.) SHE met the Phillips family as a teenager and helped in their home and on some ministry trips over a period of years. Phillips served as a church leader and spiritual authority in the congregation SHE and her family attended.
The complaint filed yesterday alleges Phillips committed “inappropriate, unwanted, and immoral sexual acts” against HER. The complaint graphically alleges sexual incidents, but not sexual intercourse, and it doesn’t allege sexual contact when SHE was a minor…
May 21, 2014 at 3:27 pm
World Net Daily has graphic reporting of the charges against Mr Phillips. I repeat, the charges by the plaintiff are nauseating (as are all of the defendant’s alleged sins in this case). May she have her day in court, and be given God’s strength to weather the idiots who will attack her. You can support her on her Facebook page.
September 16, 2014 at 10:05 am
Besides the sordidness and criminality of the Doug Phillips lifestyle and his cult, there are the “consequences” that others must expect to flow from their support of, friendship for, and covering-up of Phillips’ actions. Regardless of any criminal conviction and/or civil judgment, Phillips swung the door wide open for his “past” supporters and leadership to be sued in civil court. And guess what? Those who supported Phillips can’t run for cover as an “undercover” brother; Scott Brown, BCA Elders, interns, etc., etc., etc. (ad naseum) individually and collectively deserve the consequences of fiscal “punishment” meted out by a secular civil court…and this is regardless of their knowledge concerning the young woman. Phillips’ dealings with so many others were well known to these “gentlemen” and they deserve the same negative exposure that Doug is now facing. The “I didn’t know” will not fly and certainly we’ve witnessed the historical court’s view of “I was only following orders.” Although you’ve done the “work” on this debacle, it seems G-d has placed me in a position to wield the “big stick” of punishment, as I now have access to unlimited legal resources that are capable of taking-on even our federal government, let alone the liars, deceivers, co-conspirators, thug wannabes, and cowards associated with Doug Phillips, Boerne ‘christian’ Assembly, Vision Forum, Vision Forum Ministries, etc. Moreover, regardless of whether these “men” grovelled at our children’s feet and ours begging our forgiveness, the time for “asking” has expired. For many of those on the frontline of civil punishment, that should have been their first thought in February 2013 when the Phillips’ cult and its heresies became a matter of public record. It’s too bad that so many are still so silent; it speaks volumes as to where their hearts actually reside. Frankly, I don’t see their personal reconciliation with G-d as long as there is no reconciliation with the many, many, many families and individuals that these individuals hurt while supporting their little sick, sadistic, and sociopathic “Napoleon.” Although not a high-priority for me at the present, these “men” can rest assured that the SOL will not expire before they are hauled into “man’s” courtroom. May HaShem have mercy on them, for they can expect none from me.