Update: I received this comment from a reader today:
Sad to say, my wife and I predicted all of this years ago. We knew who Doug Phillips was, but he didn’t know who we were. We had the opportunity to watch his interaction with his wife and children over a 2-day period when no one else was around.
To this day, my wife and I remember this as one of the most difficult-to-watch episodes in our lives as Doug demeaned his wife and children, abusing them both verbally and emotionally time after time before turning to “meet his public” with an entirely different attitude.
Since then, we have watched his “public persona” and simply kept our mouths shut- knowing that this day would come… and my GUESS is that it’s just the tip of the iceberg.
One cannot say one thing and live another within the Kingdom of God indefinitely- there is eventually a day of public reckoning coming and it’s always painful to watch. Eventually it’s shouted from the housetops unless repentance deflects the judgment first.
Sad- but totally predictable to us from years ago.
***********************************************
After reviewing my article about my friend, David, and looking over my notes again, I realize that I need to make some changes, as some things weren’t as clear as they could have been. Doug Phillips’ accusations against David were so outrageous that I allowed myself to feel pressured into making a hasty response. I was in too much of a hurry to post it, so I am going to try to write it a little more clearly and will have it back up soon!
In the meantime, I will post a few links of related interest here.
Lawyer Sanctioned After Blowing Up at Process Server
Sharper Iron’s Editorial Response to Vision Forum – Notice the pattern in the four opening bullet points
Vision Forum: The Tenets of Biblical Patriarchy
More new articles on this story:
Take 3 – Jennie Chancey’s letter
Jen's Gems -- Doug Phillips' Ecclesiastical Tyranny and Abuse 
May 8, 2007 at 11:48 am
Corrie:
I know can you believe people would say that!!! GRRR . . .
Vik: Thank you for the good piece of advice – in regards to just asking if it was intended for me or someone. . . I should have put it in that way . . . as you can see this particular subject is a touchy one for me. My daughter and her husband plan to have as many children as the Lord will give them and I know that people are going to be very unkind to them in their words – though there will be a few who won’t be . . . I told her she will just have to get thick-skinned – guess I better take some of my own advice 🙂 I was looking back at the reason I reacted this way and here was your quote:
But anyway, about the birth control: Where do the patriarchs and catholics get the idea that you can’t practice birth control? Now there are some *methods* of it that I question, but can’t you have a quiver full without populating a whole city? How much does it take to fill a quiver anyway? Maybe they just needs skinnier quivers.
Vik; I unapologetically fall into the patriarchal group and I believe (as does my husband) that God fills our quivers . . . it is between the couple and the Lord what they do for BC – even if one uses BC God can still preesnt a child to them. (That happened with my one 🙂 ) I will repeat here again though I personally do not know the people that have been spoken of that would treat people with disdain (sorry I am using this word – no one else did) for only having one or two children. The people I know are aware that God opens and closes the womb. I am more familiar with the folks that criticize the big family. (that is pretty out of the norm) Just my thought here.
Hey here is a funny little story regarding things people say: When we were stationed overseas this little Japanese woman behind me in line was watching me (unbeknownst to me) – and I was looking at a little cookbook at the checkout line – I did notice it was a lowfat cook back – I just saw the awesome looking desert on there . . . as I am looking she pipes up in this tiny little voice “do you really think that will help you (please note I a short round apple 🙂 Anyway, I looked back at her … are you ready for this? And asked her “Why, do I need help?” She was so flustered she did not know what to say. This is usually how I try to handle people who ask questions that we would consider rude – with a littel humor, trying not to be mean – but showing them that their unwarranted and untimely comments are not appropriate 🙂
May 8, 2007 at 11:59 am
Actuallly, K, Catholics DO practice birth control, it’s called natural family planning, or the Rhythm Method, and it involves avoiding sexual intercourse during the woman’s fertile periods.
But there is a movement afoot in the Catholic Church which is almost identical to the HyperPatriarchal movement in Protestantism, which preaches against even natural family planning.
This movement also preaches against women working outside the home, and advocates Quiverfull, veiling of women, dresses only, mandatory homeschooling, and whole host of other things, not the least of which is the idea that the present Pope is an impostor who has no authority in the Catholic Church.
May 8, 2007 at 12:27 pm
Cynthia said:
“This movement also preaches against women working outside the home, and advocates Quiverfull, veiling of women, dresses only, mandatory homeschooling, and whole host of other things, not the least of which is the idea that the present Pope is an impostor who has no authority in the Catholic Church.”
This describes the “Christian Charity Fellowship” groups exactly. Just add the part where the women needs to be ready for “hospitality” 24/7. And this group pays for vasectomy reversals of their new members!
That method is what we employed, and their aint no way we plan to reverse it. This group would look down on me because I don’t have more children AND I make people call ahead of time before coming over. Oh, girlfriends can drop by whenever for coffee or tea, but to have a whole family show up ready for a meal? Nothing doing.
K, as far as criticizing large families, that really depends where you live, too. Around here it is so common, that I could be considered one of the oddballs. But no one puts me down now that they know me. I have more time on my hands to help out elderly folks around here than the women with huge families… is one way to look at it.
Yeah, reading my quote I can sort of see why you reacted. I was referring to the fact that *churches* were deciding that a quiver was an ever-expanding object. Having a large family wasn’t enough; you have to keep going and going like the Energizer Bunny whether you want to or not. I was really not talking about people who wanted to keep going. I would have liked 6 or 8 kids, but… not 16. Nothing wrong with 16, but I personally don’t want that many. I like to have time to spend personal time alone with each child, one-on-one, and I don’t feel like *I* could do that if I were pregnant every year until Menopause–even if I didn’t get as sick as I did.
I’ll tell you what, what a great way to diet. I got skinnier with each child and have never had to watch my weight since! 😛
May 8, 2007 at 1:04 pm
🙂 😮 8) 😐 😥 💡 👿 😀 😯 😡 😉 😈
🙄 😕 😦 😛 😆 😳
Thanks, Corrie!
May 8, 2007 at 2:03 pm
Did ya all get the newest VF newsletter via email?? Shhh, don’t tell, but it’s all about–guess what?? Honoring “MAMA”.
Hmmm.
May 8, 2007 at 2:11 pm
Corrie: “Also, the people telling us how to live, are the people who are very set financially and their wives have a lot of paid help for childcare and housework.”
Who says the help is paid?
Vik: “Jen’s gonna kill us when she gets back and sees a hundred silly face posts!”
When the cat’s away, the mice will play! I’m back now, so don’t get any other bright ideas! 😉
Corrie: “I know there are many who are QF to the core who think that any sort of birth control is wrong and any avoidance of pregnancy is wrong”
Yes, this would describe most of the “full-quiver” folks I know.
Yes, Corrie, I SO impressed with your CLEAN kids! In any other situation, no one would pay any attention, but since so many large families do have filthy children, it is a very sad commentary when people notice a large family with clean children. What I really noticed was how kind your children were to each other. And while cleanliness might be next to godliness, I really like kind children!
May 8, 2007 at 2:14 pm
Hey Corrie, you know that post that disappeared into cyberspace last night? It’s up there now. It probably went into Jen’s spam box. It happened to me for awhile, so that by the time my posts showed up, people were waaaay past that!
Anyway, thank you for sharing. You said:
“There are many teachings in the *hyper* movement that hurt families and especially QF families. The big craze in the recent past has been Debi Pearl’s book, Created To Be His Helpmeet. Don’t get me started”
The only book I have by the Pearls is “To Train Up a Child” which I really liked. Well, except for the part that you shouldn’t put diapers on babies and should potty-train infants at 3 months or whatever. Not familiar with the rest, but I did think the Mr. Pearl looks like a Harley biker.
There is a book out called, “Are You Serious About Marriage” sold at Keepers of the Faith. I think they take it way too far when they say, “It doesn’t matter what you want to do today; your day is HIS day.” Also discourages women from having women friends, saying that your best friend and really only friend should be your husband. It’s okay to have acquantances and not-to-close friendships.
Geez, I can imagine how nuts I’d drive my poor husband if I expected him to be my only friend, and how nuts I’d drive him if “my day was HIS day”. I think he’d be like, “Go away, woman!”
Also, the husband of the book I mentioned says, “We men come home from a hard day’s work and expect to partake of the marital bed.”
Oh, goodie.
May 8, 2007 at 2:19 pm
Happymom said:
“Did ya all get the newest VF newsletter via email?? Shhh, don’t tell, but it’s all about–guess what?? Honoring “MAMA”.
I don’t get their newsletters. Does Doug talk about his mom at all? I did see a few days ago a few pictures with her in them. He didn’t mention who she was but I could tell — Doug looks a lot like her (not at all like Howard).
May 8, 2007 at 2:34 pm
I was just waiting for someone else to bring up the latest VF newsletter. Yes, it is all about honoring your mother. How? By buying products from VF. Not one word about Doug’s own mother, but he does tell a story about someone else’s mother!
May 8, 2007 at 2:38 pm
Here’s how it starts out:
(Begin qoute)
***********************
For as long as I could remember, the small cottage on Castro Street had been home. The familiar background was there; Mama, Papa, my only brother, Nels. There was my sister Christine, closest to me in age, yet ever secret and withdrawn — and the littlest sister, Dagmar.
“There, too came the Aunts, Mama’s four sisters. Aunt Jenny, who was the oldest and the bossiest; Aunt Sigrid; Aunt Marta; and our maiden Aunt, Trina. The Aunts’ old bachelor uncle, my Great-uncle Chris — the ‘black Norwegian’ — came with his great impatience, his shouting and stamping. And brought mystery and excitement to our humdrum days.
“But most of all, I remember Mama.
“I remember that every Saturday night Mama would sit down by the scrubbed kitchen table and with much wrinkling of usually placid brows count out the money Papa had brought home in the little envelope….”
With these words, Kathryn Forbes introduces us to one of the most beloved stories in American literature. First written as Mama’s Bank Account, the Oscar-winning film and later television version of the story would be known as I Remember Mama. It is the story of the life-changing impact of a persevering, loving, immigrant mother on her household.
Regretfully, stories like these are disappearing from our culture. And they are disappearing because we no longer value life or the mothers who bring life into the world.
Something needs to change.
On this Mother’s Day, the Vision Forum stands with families across America in affirming the centrality of motherhood to the home, the Church, and the culture at large. It’s time to “remember Mama.” In fact, it’s time to honor our mothers, as God requires in the Fifth Commandment.
*************************************
End qoute.
I did not see any reference directly to his mother, after skimming it once, and reading it again more in depth. Someone feel free to correct me if they find one.
He’s selling books and packages of chocolates to give to your “Mama” to honor her etc. etc.
May 8, 2007 at 2:38 pm
Since we’re on the subject of big families, I think everybody will enjoy this. There’s a short interview with Guy Penrod (does he look like Jesus or what) for about a minute and a half where he talks about his family, and then the video of them all making breakfast and singing. I wish that was MY house! In this, there are 7 boys, and last year they had their first girl, which makes 8. If only people could see families like THIS instead of the ones down my street! Enjoy!
May 8, 2007 at 2:45 pm
Hmmm. Well, I’m not disappointed in the newsletter, because I wasn’t expecting anything great. This reminds me of a church I attended as a youth. On Mother’s Day, the preacher would preach about how the women should be good helpmeets to their husbands. On Father’s Day, the preacher would preach about how the women should be good helpmeets to their husbands!
I think Doug, for whatever reason, is ashamed of his mother and sisters.
May 8, 2007 at 3:55 pm
Vik wrote: Well, I’m not disappointed in the newsletter, because I wasn’t expecting anything great. This reminds me of a church I attended as a youth. On Mother’s Day, the preacher would preach about how the women should be good helpmeets to their husbands. On Father’s Day, the preacher would preach about how the women should be good helpmeets to their husbands!”
Vik, you just nailed it. If pastors really taught the truth about headship in total context, the pews would empty. Paul Washer speaks about this in one of his sermons and it is spot on…and quite frankly…it sounds nothing like Patriarchy. Remember in the New Covenant, it is about servanthood, not power or authority. Servanthood is real power because it comes from the Holy Spirit.
May 8, 2007 at 5:57 pm
Ha! That is so funny about the Mother’s Day/Father’s Day sermons and so true.
I once went to a church where the pastor handed out little booklets on Mother’s Day he wrote about how to be a Proverbs 31 woman. They were mostly his fantasies and thoughts about what a wife should be doing in the bedroom and in the home. As he was handing out the booklest he warned the women that they would not like what he had to say.
For Father’s Day he did not have a booklet to hand to the men. And when several women asked about it, he told them that this isn’t a “fair” church. They got a very encouraging sermon about how fathers are so needed and primary in the home. The Mother’s Day sermon was basically exhorting women to be good wives and rebuking them for how wives fail their husbands.
I couldn’t figure out what dressing up in sexy undies and having a bedroom that radiates “sex” has to do with Mother’s Day. Unless he was tying how one becomes a mother to that day? LOL
Do you have a link to Paul Washer’s sermon?
I have often said that many of those in the patriarchy movement focus on the benefits and not their responsibilities. Esther is right that authority is about servanthood. Jesus defined authority for us and He gave an example of how it works. HE who defines, is HE who wins, right? 😉 Also, with authority comes taking responsibility for when things go wrong. So far I don’t see a lot of that. I see a lot of materials and tapes marketed to wives to help them be better wives so their husbands can be better husbands but I do NOT see the reverse. Shouldn’t the reverse be more common in this sort of system?
May 8, 2007 at 6:05 pm
Vik,
That video was precious! Thanks for sharing that. They seem like a real neat family. One that I would love to spend time with and learn from.
I noticed that the boys were quite proficient in the kitchen. That is NOT really highly encouraged in some “hyper” circles. That is frowned upon. There are boy jobs and there are girl jobs. I have quite a few stories about this but I will spare you all. Suffice it to say, I was impressed that their sons were sharing in the household work.
I love the wheat-grinder part! 😉
May 8, 2007 at 6:12 pm
Vik,
I think I was better off knowing such a book didn’t exist. 😦
I hear ya!
May 8, 2007 at 6:18 pm
My opinion, for whatever it’s worth, is that I would hate to know what my pastor’s thoughts were about what a woman should be like in the bedroom. That’s personal between a man and his wife, and just because it’s what HE wants in HIS bedroom doesn’t mean it’s what MY husband wants in HIS. Bleech. (Adding that I have no problem with a basic, matter of fact handling of this based on Scripture–I had a pastor once who could do that, and do it in such a matter-of-fact and wholesome way that it really was a blessing– but in general, women need to be teaching women in this area, in my opinion, and the men should teach the men.)
May 8, 2007 at 7:18 pm
Vik,
Can you imagine being married to a man with that kind of attitude towards sex? Kind of puts a damper on things. “Hey, honey, I worked hard today and I expect you to……..” Did he forget that it isn’t about him, it is about her? I was under the impression that sex in marriage is for the other person?
Check out this video concerning “A Christian Women’s Role”. I had a whole post typed out, along with exact quotes from the video, but my internet went down and I lost everything. I guess it wasn’t meant to be.
Watch how he twists scripture, ignores scripture (such as 1 Cor. 7), adds to scripture, and takes away from scripture.
He is like a washing machine out of balance. His sole focus is on one thing to the exclusion of the other. He is like many of the hyper-patriarchalists who only focus on a woman’s submission and a man’s authority. All sorts of sickly doctrine are born out of those two principles because the whole of scripture is not looked at. Egos, agendas, and selfish desires fuel what are taught to others.
This guy is for real! He is not a parody.
And you naughty women (“concrete prune-hearted right to shave women”) who don’t match up to his standard: “Most of them will burn, the rest of them will be flogged.”
Also, of interest, he uses many of the same scriptures from the Bayly blog concerning a woman not holding any position of authority in an sphere- both secular or ecclesiastical.
“The Lord Jesus said, That he that knew to do something and did it not will be beaten with stripes.” HUH?
“God made woman for the man……A woman’s body, her sexual organs and her breasts, were made for her husband’s use and pleasure and they were not made for her. They have no use to her personally. They are for conceiving, bearing and feeding her husband’s children. Those are the plain facts. The inescapable truth.”
This guy obviously doesn’t understand female anatomy. If he did, he would understand that if what he says were true, then God added some parts that are just not necessary to the woman if it is all about his pleasure and use.
“A man begets his children in his wife.”
“She is there for her husband.” 1 Cor. 7 tells us that a husband is concerned about how he can please his wife. Let me also ask you. Is Jesus there for us or are we there for Him? Does Jesus have this attitude towards his Bride?
“Satanist women, the wicked women, are talking about being partnters.”
Really, if you get a chance, watch more of Lucas Labrador’s videos. He thinks quite highly of himself as a preacher of God’s word.
May 8, 2007 at 7:19 pm
I agree with you happymom, let women teach the women on those issues!
Another preacher I had embarrassed me once when in Sunday School he said he didn’t want the rapture to come until after his wedding night, and said “IT WAS HEAVEN ON EARTH! ha ha hee ho”. Very funny. 🙄
——————————
Glad you like the video clip, Corrie. I mean, did you see that mom having a blast with all those boys, when so many moms would have chased theirs out the door?
Did you notice at the end the little boy said, “Momma I burped in the middle of the song” 😆
May 8, 2007 at 7:54 pm
Ah, yeah. No offense Corrie but I really did like my video better than yours! 😉
What does he mean “shave her”? Like a brazilian wax? 😯
I don’t think I could stomach another one of his homemade sermons. It’s guys like him that make women want to stay single. Yes, and single people can adopt; skip that whole husband business altogether. I’ll start brainwashing my little girls now, while they’re still young.
I’m glad to know that none of my parts are of any use to me. 🙄
I don’t know who Bayly is, and I don’t wanna know. What drivel. ❗
May 8, 2007 at 7:57 pm
These emoticons are fun. I wish there was a puking one. I needed it up there.
May 8, 2007 at 8:29 pm
“A woman’s body, her sexual organs and her breasts, were made for her husband’s use and pleasure and they were not made for her. They have no use to her personally.”
Well honestly… of what use are some of a man’s “parts” to him personally? My tomcat is neutered, and he’s perfectly healthy and happy, but he can’t enable our female cat to concieve, bear and feed her kittens…
May 8, 2007 at 9:00 pm
“Well honestly… of what use are some of a man’s “parts” to him personally?”
I have a mind to go to YouTube and post a comment asking just that! Just so he keeps his “parts” to himself.
May 8, 2007 at 9:24 pm
This is kind of crude, but if you live in Kansas you have probably heard this old saying. My father used to describe something that was absolutely useless as being “worthless as the teats on a boar hog.” ‘Nuff said. 😉
May 8, 2007 at 10:15 pm
Cynthia — ha, no I’d never heard that one! And I thought I’d heard everything, in the barbershop!
Has anyone here ever read, “Every Man’s Battle” by Steve Arterburn? Did you know “things” have to be relieved about every 72 hours or else your husband will cheat on you? That pretty much sums up that book. Just be sure to be on hand sometime before 72 hours are up.
May 8, 2007 at 10:25 pm
Cynthia,
Ha! I once heard a pastor use that same phrase in Illinois to describe people who go to churches but never join them as members.
Vik,
I really enjoyed that video because she was having so much fun with her boys in the kitchen. They seemed like a very happy and loving family and the boys seemed like nice young gentlemen.
I enjoyed watching that much more than I did the Duggar videos. I just don’t get a “real” feeling from those shows. Like I said, I thought it was neat that the boys knew their way around the kitchen and it wasn’t considered something that mom and the girls do. My son can make a better grilled cheese and omelet than I can. He also is quite a hunter. For some reason, many in the patriarchal crowd teach that sons should not be doing housework or work in the kitchen. I don’t understand that mentality at all. Since when is cooking a woman’s job? I learned how to cook from my father. His dad was a master chef at a very fine restaurant. They were both veterans of wars and very masculine. My dad still cooks for my mom and he is great at whipping up his own creations.
Another series I like watching is “kids by the dozen” on TLC. The families are just normal, large families and all work together. They are also very honest about their failings.
May 8, 2007 at 10:33 pm
Vik,
I need to charge something BIG on the charge card every 72 hours. I NEED to. 😉 I just may cheat if I can’t.
I think people will make up stuff just for the heck of it and then publish it as fact.
There is a Christian guy at the “Marriage Bed” who says he has to have sex everyday or he will have a physical issue. (Can’t really say it on the list.)
Funny how we expect our young men to wait until they marry and they are just fine going for years without sex without blowing up or turning colors or copping out and saying they just had to do it.
What about childbirth? What about sickness? These guys are basically out of luck if these things happen.
I just watched a program called the “Secret Lives of Women” and it was on polygamy. Very interesting. Very interesting, indeed. Used a lot of the same logic or lack of it that I see in some of the arguments for some of these hyper teachings.
But, polygamy would be an answer for any man that just can’t go without for more than 72 hours. Most of the women were very happy, very attractive and very well-educated. They loved being in a family with many wives.
I heard lines like the above from a lot of guys in the bars I used to hang out in before I became a Christian. 😉 They didn’t work then, either.
May 8, 2007 at 10:35 pm
I guess I’ve never heard of Duggar or Kids by the Dozen. Are they on TV? All I have is a DVD player, no channels.
I don’t get that about men not cleaning or cooking either. Good thing the Penrods didn’t believe boys can’t cook in the kitchen, because she didn’t even have any daughters at the time! Their daughter is now almost one year old — not a lot of help here!
Guy Penrod is 6’5″ and did you notice that his wife is nearly as tall as he? WOW.
Anyway, my husband cleaned the bathtub for me the other day! 😯
May 9, 2007 at 6:58 am
“What about childbirth? What about sickness? These guys are basically out of luck if these things happen.”
What if they go into the Army or the Navy???
May 9, 2007 at 8:56 am
You know, this garbage about a man not being able to go more than 72 hours — three DAYS — without sex just takes the cake. What about Jesus fasting 40 days in the desert? He didn’t have a woman out there, or afterward. He was celibate. What about Paul? He was celibate too. What about monks and Catholic priests, and what about widowers who never remarry? What about men in the Army and Navy, and men who serve on submarines? 😯
What about men who go on four-day business trips, or week-long religious retreats????
This guy’s wife had better keep him on a really short leash, or else invest in some saltpetre.
May 9, 2007 at 12:12 pm
Corrie, where is polygamy legal?? Were they Mormons, or was this in Nigeria?
Cynthia asked:
“What if they go into the Army or the Navy???”
Unfortunately, I know where men go when they’re in the Army and the Navy! And if they’re stuck out on a ship, they probably just… nevermind. This is a Christmas blog!
“This guy’s wife had better keep him on a really short leash, or else invest in some saltpetre.”
😆
😆
😆
Whew, getting hot in here. 😳
May 9, 2007 at 12:13 pm
I mean CHRISTIAN blog! Not Christmas!!!!
May 9, 2007 at 12:27 pm
Hot? LOL….
I thought it was just me.. after all, I am a grandma, and “of a certain age”, LOL!
May 11, 2007 at 10:01 pm
Jen: Here are your words that made me think you will be reposting this article:
After reviewing my article about my friend, David, and looking over my notes again, I realize that I need to make some changes, as some things weren’t as clear as they could have been. Doug Phillips’ accusations against David were so outrageous that I allowed myself to feel pressured into making a hasty response. I was in too much of a hurry to post it, so I am going to try to write it a little more clearly and will have it back up soon!
May 11, 2007 at 10:50 pm
K, I don’t know how I could make this any clearer: the article is back up — with a few changes.
May 11, 2007 at 11:24 pm
Jen which article is it? is it under a different title and I am missing it?