Doug Phillips’ Mentor and Spiritual Father Speaks Out

Negative comments appeared here recently regarding Doug Phillips’ “spiritual father” Pastor Robert Gifford. In response we received word from Pastor Gifford, via one of his daughters and one of his church members, that Pastor Gifford is in no way pleased to be portrayed by Doug Phillips as his spiritual father, and that he is in no way responsible for teaching Doug Phillips Dominionism, Patriarchy, Family Integrated Church, home school elitism, etc. According to these commenters Pastor Gifford has for years been openly confronting Doug Phillips for his unbiblical and extra-biblical positions.

I was subsequently asked to interview Pastor Gifford for this article. Interspersed in this article are direct quotes from my interview with Pastor Robert Gifford, including this statement which explains his motivation for giving me the interview:

“I grieve over the way Doug Phillips has misrepresented me. But that doesn’t bother me the most. God will vindicate me. What bothers me the most is how Doug has defamed the testimony of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. It breaks my heart the way he’s discredited and maligned the Word of God. He twisted the Word of God for his own advantage. I also grieve that so many people have been harmed by Doug’s teachings that I think it’s necessary for me to speak out. Doug has a dual personality. He’s been leading a secret life. It’s like the movie Catch Me If You Can.”

Doug Phillips has often made mention of Pastor Robert Gifford, crediting him as his “spiritual father and mentor.” He has done so numerous times from the podium at various venues, as well as in print:

“When I was a young man, my spiritual father, mentor, and pastor gave me a copy of John Gill. He told me it was the most trustworthy and foundational commentary in print. He explained to me that my hero Charles Spurgeon had feasted on John Gill’s writings when he was a young man. Nearly twenty-five years later, I want to once again publicly thank Pastor Robert Gifford for introducing me to the great John Gill who has remained my constant companion in my life.”  2007 Vision Forum Catalog, pg. 38

“It was during those days that two men helped transform my boyhood dreams into the vision of a man. One was my father, and the other was my pastor, Robert Gifford. Both men gave me many books which fueled my interest in the story of Creation and even the quest for dinosaurs. They practiced discipleship and communicated a Creationist message of dominion.” 2003 Vision Forum Catalog, pg. 2

Robert Gifford taught Doug and Brad Phillips, both as their church pastor, and beginning in their 8th and 7th grades, respectively, when they were students at Fairfax Christian School in Vienna, Virginia. FCS is a prestigious school that has attracted many Washington politicians, local celebrities and famous athletes who have sent their children there for a Christian education. Five FCS parents have run for President of the United States, including Howard Phillips.

When Doug and Brad first began attending FCS, “They were deep into Roman Catholicism. Doug also believed in theistic evolution.” Through the influence of Robert Gifford they turned from Roman Catholic evolutionists to make professions of faith in Christ and becoming creationists.

“As a young man, Doug was also discipled by Robert Gifford, a great preacher of the Word and pastor of Sovereign Grace Baptist Church, who communicated to Doug a passion for Christian apologetics and the sovereignty of God.” Vision Forum Ministries, About the President

I asked Pastor Gifford, “Why do you think that Doug has so often claimed you as having been such a significant influence in his life, right along side his natural father, crediting you as his spiritual father and mentor?”

“I think that I most definitely influenced him in regard to the fundamentals of the faith. I taught him biblical doctrine. I taught him in school and at church. But I also taught him one on one, in my home. I taught him the doctrines of grace. I taught him soteriology. I taught him creationism. So I taught him the fundamentals in his early age, I was influential in that. Secondly, my family had a big influence on him. He was over at my house a lot. He saw the way my family operated and he liked that. I have seven kids and my family had a big impact on him. I think Doug is sincere about my influence, but I also think he’s being dishonest about some of it too. I think part of why he uses my name is to establish credibility within the evangelical world. Look at me. I’m under a spiritual father. I think it’s also his way of trying to cover up, camouflage, some of the aberrant doctrines that he has.”

Doctrinally, Pastor Gifford is and always has been an evangelical Baptist. He is Dispensational and Premillennial. This demonstrates how highly the Phillips family has always respected him because doctrinally Howard Phillips, after converting from Judaism, became a Reformed Covenantalist, Postmillennial, Reconstructionist, Theonomist and Dominionist, and his sons Doug and Brad later followed after their father in doctrine. Though Doug and Pastor Gifford are at opposite ends of the theological spectrum, in all these years Doug Phillips has always spoken with great fondness of Pastor Robert Gifford.

The Phillips family became members of Pastor Gifford’s church, Sovereign Grace Baptist Church in Woodbridge, VA (not affiliated with Sovereign Grace Ministries). Pastor Gifford was a significant influence in teaching the Phillips family the doctrines of grace, both from the pulpit, and in the Christian school.

Doug Phillips would go on to graduate high school at FCS and then attend the College of William and Mary. It was while Doug was at William and Mary that Pastor Gifford started noticing troubling changes in Doug, and Pastor Gifford often addressed his concerns with Doug.

Doug then attended George Mason School of Law. While in law school he married Elizabeth Beall Dewey. Pastor Gifford performed the wedding ceremony.

Perhaps one of the reasons Doug Phillips has admired Pastor Gifford is because he has been so direct with Doug. According to Pastor Gifford he warned Doug Phillips many times about problems that he saw developing in Doug’s life, both in the doctrines he began to embrace as a young man, as well as his immense pride.

On Patriarchy:

If anyone deserves credit for indoctrinating Doug Phillips in Patriarchy, home school-only elitism, and family integrated church it would be John Thompson. Among other things Thompson is the founding director of the National Center for Family-Integrated Churches. While Doug Phillips was a staff attorney at Home School Legal Defense Association, he invited Pastor Gifford to his home to introduce him to John Thompson:

“I was supposedly Doug’s spiritual father, but he invited this man, John Thompson, to come and instruct me about marriage and family. Doug knew I’d been teaching what the Word has to say about marriage and family for years. I had over a hundred messages I’d given on marriage and family. Doug orchestrated this whole evening so that Thompson could indoctrinate me in Patriarchy. We sat around the table while everyone listened  to this man lecture me. After he got done Doug had us all move into the living room where the men all sat down on the couches. My wife sat next to me; but I noticed all the other women stood behind their husbands, including Beall. It was very strange. They just stood there the whole time behind their husbands. I thought we were going to have a nice conversation. But it wasn’t a conversation, and it was very uncomfortable. This guy Thompson took over and started asking me questions. The last thing he asked me was, ‘If you were in a grocery store and your children started to act rebellious, how would you respond?’ So I said, ‘I don’t go shopping. My wife shops. Honey, what would you do?’ So my wife starts to answer and this Thompson guy cuts her off and says, ‘Excuse me! I’m speaking to the men!’ At this point I really had to hold myself back. Doug just sat there the whole time and said nothing. It was obvious that Doug set this whole thing up. At this point we got up and left.”

“When Doug left Virginia to move to San Antonio to start Vision Forum, I warned him to stay away from John Thompson and Patriarchy. I told him ‘It’s a tyrannical way to lead the family. It’s not biblical’.”

“I think men like Doug get into Patriarchy because they’re weak insecure men. So they gather a bunch of other men around them to figure out how to make their wives do what they want. They don’t know how to lead their wives. All they know how to do is force them. A man is supposed to lead his wife lovingly, sacrificially. unreservedly. It’s clear from Ephesians 5. The Bible calls the wife a ‘helpmeet’. What that means is that she’s a counselor. She’s supposed to give counsel to her husband, and the husband is supposed to listen to her. I’ve taught this for years. We men have blind spots. We need godly women to give us counsel. She’s a counterbalance to us.”

On Family Integrated Church:

“Doug was going around behind my back in my church telling people that Sunday school was evil. I confronted him about it and he lied and said he hadn’t. But I confronted him with the fact that ten families had come to me and told me he’d told them that Sunday school was sin. He told me, ‘I never said that. You’re misrepresenting me’. Doug was very divisive of the church. Several families left because of him, but I was able to prevent a church split. But that’s only because I put a stop to what he was trying to do behind my back. I kept catching him doing dishonest things like that where I’d confront him for something and he’d lie about it. It happened four times in a row.”

On Women Working Outside the Home:

“It’s not a sin for a woman to work outside the home. In fact there are times where it may be necessary for a woman to work outside the home to show her love for her husband and to complement him. This idea that a woman has to remain within the four walls of the home is nowhere found in Scripture.”

On Dominionism and Quiverfull:

vfcatalog2007cover“Doug has misrepresented me in the worst sense. He’s made me out to be a Dominionist. He’s put it in print. He’s said it many times. It’s libel. Dominionism is completely contrary to everything I taught. I think that much of Doug’s views of Dominionism came from the Shepherding movement. There’s a lot of similarities. He also teaches the same thing the Muslims teach which is you take over the world by having lots of babies. You establish an army through your children. It’s important to understand this. If you look at Doug through all his advertisements, the Vision Forum, he’s got his kids on the covers dressed in armor. This is what they’re doing. They’re forming armies through their families. I’m just the absolute opposite of all that.”

On Home Schooling Elitism:

“Doug and his brother Brad came to my home and told me, ‘Pastor Gifford, we believe that the qualifications for membership in the church are wrong. We believe that only home schoolers should be members of the church’. I told them, ‘Do you realize what kind of elitist attitude you have? Do you realize what you’re doing? This is totally anti-biblical. This is the problem that the early Jewish converts had when they thought only they could be members of the church and the Gentiles had to be excluded. What you have is an elitist mentality, and it’s going to turn into a cult if you’re not careful’. It was over that issue that Doug left my church and moved to Texas to start Vision Forum and his own church.”

On Moving to San Antonio To Start Vision Forum:

” ‘Doug, you’ve got a lot of natural talents and pride. Prideful men who rely on natural talents don’t depend like they should on the Holy Spirit. If you get prideful you also won’t rely on God’s Word to lead you. Pride goes before a fall, and that’s what concerns me. You’ve got to be very careful that you don’t do this in the flesh. You need to learn wisdom from above rather than the wisdom that comes from the world. You need to rely on the Holy Spirit to lead you. I’m concerned that in your pride you’ll just rely on your charisma and natural abilities’.”

” ‘Doug, don’t mix business with church. It always ends up that the business controls the church’.”

“I saw Doug’s abilities and charisma all along, and I always saw those more as a danger than a help. I told my wife that Doug was going to depend on his performance, and his charisma and his persona, more than on the power of the Word and the Holy Spirit.”

On Doug Phillips After He Started Vision Forum:

“Doug sent me some of his Vision Forum materials. I listened to them and was really disappointed. I called him and said, ‘Doug, where in any of this are you speaking of the redemptive work of Jesus Christ? All my teaching on the family always points people to Jesus Christ. You’re just teaching moralism. If we don’t lead our children to Jesus we fail. Moralism isn’t enough Doug. You’re de-emphasizing the gospel of salvation. You’re preaching moralism and Dominionism, not Jesus Christ’.”

“I’m not a Dominionist but even I can see that Doug’s militant form of Dominionism is extreme. I also confronted him about his Patriarchy. I pointed out to him that even the Dominionists weren’t teaching the kind of extreme Patriarchy that he does.”

Warning To Doug Phillips At Howard Phillips’ Funeral (May 2013):

“Doug, I’m really concerned for you. You’ve gotten far away from the Word of God by creating this Dominionist/Patriarchy/Family Integrated Church/Home School thing. You need to get back to the gospel of Jesus and stop being a moralist or everything you’ve done is going to fall. Point people to Jesus or your ministry will collapse.”

Pastor Gifford On Doug Phillips’ Infidelity

“All the these issues cause me great heartache, but nothing is so dreadful to me as Doug’s infidelity. In his pride Doug came to believe that he could live like a king with no accountability to anyone, even to God. The result is always immorality. Doug was taught in word and deed to live a pure and holy life that honored our triune God and His Word. He’s “turned from the holy commandment delivered unto him” (1 Thes 4:1-8) to a system of belief and practice that justifies immorality. May the grace and mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ quicken Doug and bring him to a place of true repentance and faith.”

______________

Robert Gifford is an elderly man who, of his own admission, isn’t computer literate. Pastor Gifford has reviewed and approved this article for posting. He’s informed me that he likely won’t be monitoring comments to this article or responding to questions here. However, his daughter Grace, has informed me that she likely will.

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1,188 Responses to “Doug Phillips’ Mentor and Spiritual Father Speaks Out”

  1. Dr. Postulate Says:

    Donna,

    To answer your question about Jasmine Baucham (Voddie’s daughter), please read the following under the heading of “Logic School Faculty (Grades 5 – 7)”:

    http://www.tcshouston.org/about-tcs/about-tcs-1

    Maybe Voddie’s changed his stance?

    • Just a shadow Says:

      Very Interesting since she wrote that SAHD “Joyfully at Home” blog/book.

      Esp. Interesting how these leaders are free to change their minds – but their followers aren’t .

      • JPGR Says:

        Esp. Interesting how these leaders are free to change their minds”

        You know, maybe it’s just me, but i’ve always thought that people should also wait until the verdict is in before writing books and pronouncing dogmatic truths to the sheep. Like parenting gurus who write their book before the first kid becomes a teenager…..and so on.

        As you note, grace and freedom comes naturally for The Leader Class – for themselves of course. But for the little people? Well, not so much….

        • stillhealing Says:

          I suspect this change in course has a whole lot to do with Jasmine being well into her twenties and not married yet….

        • just a shadow Says:

          Yes. It’s the whole “some people are given a pass” to do what they want but others are put under church discipline for it.

          Like in the book “Animal Farm”….”All animals are equal but some are more equal than others.”

          Working outside the home as a Christian daughter (nay, brother! Thou art in direst of error!) would have been regarded as forbidden by VB just a year ago ( daughter wrote a whole book on it, was featured in the “Return of the Daughters” Botkin video) and *working at a Christian School* (horrors! working with children whose parents don’t take their biblically-mandated-order-to-never-let-the-kids-or-young-adults-or-any-fruit-of-the-womb-leave-home? shocking! Call the meeting of elders! This is dire, grave, serious error!)

          I personally don’t understand how these leaders sleep at night. Giving orders to others, but then making exceptions for their own children.

          JPGR – I’m with you. How about these authors/leaders raise even just one child successfully to marriage & adulthood & maybe *then* write a book? Hmmm?

  2. JourneyGirl Says:

    Sexual abuse runs rampant in many “looking-like-they-have-it-all-together” patriarchal/umbrella authoritarian homeschooling families. Many of the children who seem so submissive are living in so much fear and pain and are effectively silenced and forced to put on a happy face for others. They become very good at hiding secrets. I wonder about RC Sproul Jr.’s children. I also believe that it is an issue that needsto be more widely addressed and brought to light, giving a voice to hurting children who were subjected to the abuse in the name of submission to authority. So sad to even bring this up, but I’m interested in feedback, now that we’re discussing awful homelife abuses.

    • just a shadow Says:

      Michael Pearl ( of whom I’m not a fan otherwise) has some good articles on this subject. They were from a couple of years back. Apparently in his experience it is not rare at all in these types of families, and some things he referenced having run across through the years were horrifying.

      That’s why I told “Chris” to get his sexually acting out 4&5 year olds checked by a pediatrician. Especially if they have been around the 16 yr old he spoke of who has a history of molesting another child. Common sense, please!

      • JourneyGirl Says:

        Yes, my eyeballs nearly popped out when I read Chris’s comments that he clearly thinks this behavior is normal.
        yikes! You had a good response to him. I am very familiar with Michael Pearl’s efforts to expose the sexual abuse issues. The Yell and Tell books are good. The sad irony is that the sexual abuse happens in many families who are Pearl followers. We need other godly men and women to make a big deal about the seriousness of this problem in families and offer hope from a Biblical perspective.

      • Molly Says:

        The Recovering Grace blog also did a series of articles on this subject in April of last year, I think.

    • Jen Says:

      JourneyGirl, well, I guess I can be grateful that my children are not afraid to tell the whole world what they are thinking! The good, the bad, and the ugly.

      Hiding secrets is never a good thing.

  3. New Covenant Pastor Says:

    Jen I concur with your comments about RC jr. I cannot really put into words how dusgusted I am to learn of this. I will say this–I am more stirred up to be deliberately merciful and gracious to my five children and my dear wife. I am more stirred up to be a servant to the Baptist Church God has made me an overseer of. Thanks for the blog.

    • UMMM..... Says:

      It is so easy (and sinful) to comment on what someone has said about RC Jr. You have no idea if it is true and what their motives are. This type of blog is silly and sinful.

      • just a shadow Says:

        Then, UMMM, you should avoid this blog if you feel it is sinful. The Bible tells us not to participate in that which we feel is sinful. So, by all means, please follow your conscience and find blogs to follow that are more in line with what you think.

        • UMMM..... Says:

          Just a shadow, I am following my conscience, thank you for caring.

        • PioneerHomeschooler Says:

          Your conscience is telling you to read and participate in something that is sinful? I don’t understand.

        • Scott Says:

          Ummm, This comment you have made is one UMM-DINGER of complete Of BUNK. ( A) RC was convicted at trial and defrocked. (B) the multiple witnesses as to his drunken behavior and wife spanking is well beyond the bibical standard of out of the mouths of 2-3 witnesses per Timithy 5:19

          I didn’t see you on her defending the Epstein family when Doug Philiips had his assorted goons putting up all sorts of attack sites targeting the entire family. I guess only Patriarchal families are entitled to defense huh ?

          Bottom line the patriarch movement has been exposed thanks to Rc & Phillips. It will never recover, it’s fatally wounded so gentlemen go be a true bibical leader of your family. Love your wife more than your own body as commanded in scripture, sacrifice for your family and study God’s word for yourself instead of listen to a defrocked drunkard and a hypocritical pervert that was willing to use a young woman that was NOT his wife, even though he is married.

        • just a shadow Says:

          Scott – I hope Patriarchy is fatally wounded, but I’m not so sure. I’m still waiting for the phoenix to rise from the ashes. I think there will be attempts. We need to pray that God continues to reveal the ALL that should be brought out into the light.

          Ok. Ummm. You are of course free to participate in that which you feel is sinful. The Bible tells us that when we do that – knowingly participate in sin or even participate in something that we *think* is a sin, we end up with a seared conscience.

          I don’t believe what is happening here is sinful. I think it is the result of many prayers that God would rescue His children from wolves in their midst.

          I was once one of those who trusted and was mislead.

          Whether you, Chris, or Mykl, believe it, I am hoping to prevent others from traveling the road to nowhere that we ended up on, trying to pick up the pieces.

          We did not mean to be deceived. We thought we were choosing a better way.

          We believed the carefully crafted image.

          I don’t want anyone else to experience it.

        • NC Says:

          JAS, as the link below shows, some of these hyper-patriarchs like Brown and Jr. are still out there teaching.
          https://www.christianheritageonline.org/

        • UMMM..... Says:

          “To explain evil, we point to society, upbringing, or circumstance, & are appalled at any hint that the guilt should be laid at our own feet.”

        • just a shadow Says:

          Ummm I have said repeatedly in my posts that we accept the full responsibility for our decision to follow VF. Our friends tried to warn us. We ignored them. 2 godly older men tried to warn us. We arrogantly dismissed their advice. It is no one else’s fault that we ended up in that group.

          But we were also deceived by a charade. We believed a lie.

          I want to make sure I do my part to warn others.

        • UMMM..... Says:

          Scott, when you responded to my comment about this blog, you sounded a bit angry. I did like your clever “UMM-DINGER” quote. That was cute. I don’t follow a movement. I read my Bible and discern as best I can. We all get different things wrong at different points of our christian walks. I never just blindly followed anyone. I hear messages and then go to the Scriptures with them. I am sure I make mistakes all the time, though. I trust God with those, too.

  4. VFknowMORE Says:

    Has anyone else gotten the two letters that Scott Brown/NCFIC has sent out in the past three weeks?

    • Not Fooled Anymore Says:

      VFknowMORE, What two letters are those? Are they for subscribers or supporters only? What is their content? Thanks for your answer in advance!

    • NC Says:

      I have not, can you post them or tell me where to find them?

    • Mike Race Says:

      I did. I’ll have to see if I still have it. I choose to ignore it. If I remember correctly it was asking for money. I’ll see if I still have it

    • DesiringToDiscern Says:

      VFKM,
      SB sent out 2 emails …
      A friend of mine showed it to me. Requesting a donation in one. A flipbook overview of their year in the other.

  5. Welcome Home Katya Says:

    As a bio Mom and adoptive Mom, I can only beg all parents to RUN hard and fast from the erroneous and dangerous teachings of “leaders” like Gary Ezzo and Micheal Pearl. They cause so much damage to healthy attachment in children! And then parents wonder “WHY?!” when their children become teens and adults. Why? You just spent the last X amount of years trying to teach them to “self comfort” and to NOT need you, and then suddenly you are offended when they are teens and truly do NOT need you and do their own thing? That’s precisely what you have taught them. The blogger, “Tulip Girl” has a lot of good posts and resources on her blog that have been very helpful to me, and many other parents who wish to do gentle parenting, with grace.

    • Growing in grace Says:

      I’ll have to respectfully disagree with you about the Pearls. Their materials have done wonders in helping us raise happy, hard-working, self-controlled,normal children/young adults who love to spend time with us. They taught us to spend quality time with them and to teach values through love and fellowship, not rules and ” preachiness.” People are frequently surprised to hear that our older children were homeschooled because they’re so well-adjusted, focused and pleasant. Their advice has definitely proven successful in our family!

      • Jen Says:

        Growing in grace, I agree that properly understanding the Pearls can lead to a happy family. So many people focus on the discipline and forget the heart strings. It never works that way.

        • Mel. Says:

          Sorry Jen, I respectively disagree. The Pearls teaching suggesting using a plumbing pipeline to spank and the deaths that resulted from people following the teaching and Michael Pearl’s arrogance puts them in the same destructive class as the Patriarchal crowd in my perception. They may have a lot of good teaching and books that have helped some people, but no thanks. My husband says that a hallmark of deception is that most of it often sounds very good. That is what deception is. It can be 95 % good. I cannot even discuss their influence and the harm they have done without getting very emotional and angry and tearful at the children who have been harmed and died. You do not spank a child with plumbing line until they submit. That is abuse and it is embedded in their teaching and people who want obedient kids are stupid enough to do it UNTIL THEY KILL THEIR CHILDREN. Satan comes as an angel of light. God help us all who have been deceived and help us to help others. I do thank you for this forum and what you are doing to warn others and keep them from harm.

        • Randy Says:

          JAS: Honestly the thought crossed my mind. I have never believed that Doug shut down the “ministry” and his business over a few kisses. We are talking about entities that raked in millions annually and allowed him to live in a luxery home and expense countless trips/vacations to the ministry. He is way too arrogant to just let it all go without there being something major being held over his head that was more drastic than getting wiped out, losing your home ,business and suffering widespread public exposure/ humiliation.

          Personally I believe criminal charges were a real possibility and he was given a choice resign or prison. Whether he was involved with someone under the age of consent in Texas, transported someone under the age of 18 across state lines and had some manner of sexual contact thus violating the MANN ACT or was exposed for some financial irregularity as a result of his not so private life, somewhere he was compromised. Compromised to the point where others had great leverage over his decision making processes. Believe me a guy with the ego the size of a dinosaur ( sorry couldn’t help myself) doesn’t walk away from all this unless he has no options. Let’s face it, he confessed because he was caught and there was no denying it.

        • Jen Says:

          Randy — Doug Phillips has the ego the size of an ALLOSAUR! That is priceless!

        • Jen Says:

          Mel, I understand that many people have taken the Pearls’ teachings, twisted them, and then blamed the Pearls when they abused, or even murdered, their own children. That is deplorable and I soundly denounce it.

          I do NOT agree with everything the Pearls teach. Not by a long shot. But I took the basic principles of child training and used them wisely, not only to make a huge difference in my own family, but also to help hundreds of other families as well. I was always cautious to tell others that the most important part is tying the heart strings, but that Michael Pearl did not emphasize that part enough in his book. I think he assumed that parents understood that part, but in fact, they did not, and that is why they often had problems.

          Perhaps, as usual, I took the good parts, made it into my own, and shared only the good parts. I have been known to do that with many teachings. The two MOST important things I learned from Michael Pearl are that 99% consistent is still inconsistent (and nothing is more important in training than being consistent); and, always use natural consequences. Those two changed my life.

        • Nea Says:

          “So many people focus on the discipline and forget the heart strings”

          You don’t think that’s in response to Pearl himself mentioning “training,” “discipline,” “the rod,” “spats,” “submit,” “obey,” “condition,” at something like a 6-to-1 ratio compared to “heartstrings”? If people focus on the discipline and forget the heartstrings, it’s because that’s where Pearl puts the emphasis.

        • Jen Says:

          Nea, yes, absolutely, I do blame Michael Pearl 100% for that distortion in his book. However, to be fair, I think that he truly thought that parents understood the heart strings part, but not the discipline part, so he wrote from that perspective. I guess I have gotten proficient at chewing up meat and spitting out bones. I find bones just about everywhere I go, but it doesn’t keep my from finding the meat either. EVEN in patriarchy!

        • Just a shadow Says:

          Randy – I agree 100%. I know DP. There is no way under heaven, no way at all he would have resigned, closed up shop without so much as a peep of protestation if this were about the thing with Cassandra. I have ZERO idea what it actually is about, but whatever it is has got to be huge. So huge that he is riding away quietly. DP never does anything quietly – ever.

          It will come out, eventually.

        • Jen Says:

          JAS, you are correct. This is NOT about “I didn’t have sex with that woman.” That is far bigger indeed.

        • Eileen Says:

          I do NOT agree with everything the Pearls teach. Not by a long shot. But I took the basic principles of child training and used them wisely, not only to make a huge difference in my own family, but also to help hundreds of other families as well. I was always cautious to tell others that the most important part is tying the heart strings, but that Michael Pearl did not emphasize that part enough in his book. I think he assumed that parents understood that part, but in fact, they did not, and that is why they often had problems.

          It’s like anything else whether it be the Pearls, Voddie, Doug etc…….You have to learn how to chew the meat and spit out the bones. You have to have that discernment. It’s the one that can’t do that that are at risk.

        • Jen Says:

          Eileen, did you write that about Michael Pearl, or did I? It sounds like you and I are on the exact same sheet of music there.

        • Eileen Says:

          Eileen, did you write that about Michael Pearl, or did I? It sounds like you and I are on the exact same sheet of music there.

          the first part Jen I cut and copied from what you wrote and the last paragraph was my response…..I see others have said the same thing 🙂

      • Welcome Home Katya Says:

        If you were able to spit out the bones and use only the good, that is wonderful. Far too many families have not, and it’s caused massive problems–including death.

        • Molly Says:

          Personally, I believe that if something truly is from God, there won’t be any bones. It is important to be tuned into the Holy Spirit speaking into our lives and not just listen to preachers, books, and “movements.”

        • Jen Says:

          Molly, NOW I would agree that there should be far fewer bones, but when I was younger and trying to learn all these things for myself, I was desperately searching for truth. It wasn’t until AFTER my excommunication that someone taught me how to PROPERLY interpret Scripture for myself. Now, I put litte-to-no stock in listening to others twist Scripture, and feel much more confident in letting the Holy Spirit guide me in studying and reading the Word. But there are still some things I can learn from other people. God made us that way.

        • just a shadow Says:

          Molly –

          I agree with you. It’s why I have pretty much stopped reading any teaching except the Bible. I do read fiction etc.. I believe the Bible when it says that the Holy Spirit is given to teach us. So, I’ve stopped reading commentaries (they can’t help showing the author’s biases), and now instead of reaching for another book when I feel I need input on child training, I reach for the Bible and I pray. Jesus is faithful to guide and instruct. Every time.

        • Jay Says:

          Molly, I hear you. Certainly the Holy Spirit is our primary teacher. But the Bible also says that God gave the church teacherS to equip them toward maturity. Don’t forget to include that in your equation.

        • Jay Says:

          Ooops, I think I was replying to JAS, not Molly. Sorry! 🙂

        • Teresa N Says:

          Jay,

          That is why we must have proper discernment and know the Word of God, so we can know the authentic from the counterfeit. Also, who is a shepherd and who is a wolf. The fruit….. we shall know them by their fruit.

          My favorite quote is……“Discernment is not simply a matter of telling the difference between what is right and wrong; rather it is the difference between right and almost right.” -Charles Spurgeon

        • Donna Says:

          Excellent quote by Spurgeon! I’ll have to share that with my hubby because he’s preaching on apostasy from the book of Jude on Sunday. He’s got another quote by Spurgeon already in there, but I’ll mention this one to him as well.

          A big part of the problem today with lack of discernment and not knowing the difference between a true, biblical shepherd and a wolf is the fact that people just don’t know their BIBLES. Since Bibles have been removed from the public schools (used to be they were taught in conjunction with many other subjects, including learning to read — Noah Webster and William McGuffey were huge helps in this, so *everyone* got to know what their Bibles actually SAID, whether they believed it from a spiritual standpoint or not), but an even worse problem is how a lot of *churches* don’t really teach much of the Bible, either. Despite the fact that one of the main qualifications for an elder is to know his own Bible and be able to “rightly divide the Word of Truth”, to PROTECT it, and to equip the saints. But when people are going to church and treating it more like a social club than a place to actually learn the Word of God — getting milk instead of meat — how are they supposed to know what a biblical elder/shepherd is *supposed* to look like, or whether he’s teaching the truth or not?

        • Donna Says:

          Also, you know that that’s exactly how Satan deceived Eve in the Garden, and he tried the same trick on Jesus on the mountaintop — he told something right, and then he told something “almost right”. That’s how deceivers are able to deceive…. by attracting people with truth, but then mixing in some untruth so that after a while, no one can quite tell the difference. Isn’t that exactly what DP & Co. (Gothard, Botkin, et al) have done? They do teach some good biblical principles *about* the family, but…. then they get away from the Gospel and it becomes all about lifestyle choices, and *demands* on the family in particular, rather than the real purpose of the NT Church. In the process, they turn those “principles” into LAW, which God Himself never demanded. That’s exactly how Satan works, and it’s also what the Pharisees did. Jesus condemned the Pharisees (and Satan) directly to their faces.

        • Observer Says:

          Donna: Nailed it. “In the process, they turn those “principles” into LAW, which God Himself never demanded.” Case in point—Courtship.

        • Just a shadow Says:

          Donna & Observer –

          I agree 100%.

          False teachers *always* teach some things that are true. This is to distract from the false they inevitably mix in.

          Satan started that in the garden (Did God say do not eat? Yes. Dis He say, Do not touch? No. Satan added to God’s command & then proceeded to make a case against God in Eve’s mind.)

          This is why we are FORBIDDEN to ADD to God’s word.

          We must take the Bible on its face & in its own words – period.

          These men add to God’s word, strap burdens on others they themselves have never borne ( they have unpaid help with their 15 kids, they have college degrees, none of them “courted” their wives, some even defied the wishes of their bride’s parents) .

          And as the Bible says, they shut the door to Heaven in men’s faces.

          This is what has happened to so many raised in these groups.

          The way to Heaven was shut in their faces.

          There will be a day of reckoning for that.

    • dad24 Says:

      I respectfully disagree with you about Gary Ezzo. We have 4 teens that are such a joy to be around. They love spending time with us and us with them. They also have a great group of friends in their sports activities etc…. Gary Ezzo’s material helped us in establishing obedience and then getting to the heart. It is fine with me if you don’t desire to establish obedience but that was a preference we had. We wanted them to come when we called their name etc… anyway, they all love the Lord and are living for Him. We have zero damage to any attachment with our children because of Gary’s teachings.

      I hate seeing people attacked simply because you don’t care for their style. It’s a matter of choice. If you choose grace based parenting, that is fine and great. Do what works for your family but don’t attack someone because they’ve chosen something different.

      • Welcome Home Katya Says:

        I find it interesting that you assume that Grace based parenting means “it is fine with me if you don’t desire to establish obedience”. Umm, where on earth did I say that? That is not what I believe at all. If you think that grace based parenting means our children are allowed to be rotten, out of control children, then I’m sorry, but you evidently do not understand grace based parenting. Just to be clear . . . and no, I’m not a new Mom, but one who has been parenting for over 21 years. However, debating this is not the purpose of this blog. I have stated my concerns about those parenting methods, as have others. Back to VF and DP. . . .

        • stillhealing Says:

          I think that is the false assumption of many 🙂 I really appreciate Sally Clarkson’s article at her website I Take Joy. It’s called “First Time Obedience…Really?” It really made me think because she asks, do we as adults always do everything right the first time, immediately and without question? Or is God patient and merciful to each of us, and understand our weakness? If we as adults aren’t able to obey perfectly every time, then why do we rigidly expect such a performance from immature little children? I, as well, am not a new or inexperienced mother and my children are a joy to be with!

      • amom Says:

        I am posting in response to the above. Thank you Mel. We will know a false teacher by their fruits. There are 3 children dead and the Pearls are not apologetic. Jesus’ simple command was to love God and love others. Where does the Bible say to switch your child with a plumb line on the behind from such and such age to such a such age for such and such behavior such and such an amount of times? The rod word was used several times in the Bible as a metaphor for authority. I will refrain from going on and on, including looking at the meaning of the Hebrew words and Proverbs. Just feel passionate about this as well as not adding to the Bible……

        • DesiringToDiscern Says:

          amom
          Did you personally know the parents? Have you read the Pearl’s materials? Do you read tabloids at the checkout for your *facts* ? Do you know WHY ladders and 5 gallon buckets have *idiot* warnings on them now? Because people do not want to be accountable for their own actions. 😦

      • Reality Says:

        The problem I have with these programs that are heavy on obedience, obedience … ad nauseam , is that we create a bunch of followers. You want a more balanced program that encourages children to question and debate. In doing so , you are equipping the next generation to be better shepherds and stop the wolves before they do too much damage. World class leaders will not be created from these obedience training programs.

        • Just a shadow Says:

          Reality –

          I do agree with you. Years ago I would have debated you to the floor. But having seen what I have in these groups, I agree that these programs train kids to be followers -no questioning allowed! Just do it, do it immediately, and it better be with a cheerful countenance to boot! Or else.

          You know what else it trains them in? Deception.

          These kids become very good at hiding their true feelings/ideas.

          This comes in handy when they decide to rebel.

          They’ve had years of training in how to act even though they feel differently ( cheerful countenance!).

          That’s why their parents are clueless to the fact that they are climbing out the window at night to go party with the other “godly offspring”.

          Because by golly during the day they have that cheerful countenance and do the chores the first time!

          The quality of the parent child relationship is reduced to measuring it by how much first time obedience is present. By this the parents feel that they “have their child’s heart”.

          It’s false.

          I have seen this over and over and over in these circles.

          So, much of the time you end up with one of two outcomes:

          Brainwashed drones who can’t think & are followers or kids who are in rebellion but are steeped in the arts of deception.

          Not *always*. But much of the time.

        • Jen Says:

          JAS, to your list of having a cheerful countenance, to think that parents actually end up training their children to be hypocrites and frauds. And then they wonder why they turn out the way they do. Although it is not easy to give up control, teaching your children to think for themselves is one of the best gifts a parent can give a child!

        • Jen Says:

          Reality, there is yet another class being taught next week here in the “community” on first-time obedience. Would you like to attend? 🙂

  6. Dr. Postulate Says:

    VFknowMORE:

    Is it possible for you to block out any of your identifying information but post the bulk of the letter onto a website so that others may read it? Our church is listed on the NCFIC website (in the long process of being removed) and I feel any information regarding the NCFIC should be made public to those connected to it in some way.

  7. T.W. Eston Says:

    Here’s the first half of Scott Brown’s “year-end letter”:

    Dear brothers and sisters,

    Deborah and I just returned from our last conference of the year in beautiful Anchorage, Alaska, promoting the importance of a “God-Centered Family.” I am now back home taking some time off, having tea with Deborah and Claudia, celebrating the Incarnation, playing with grandchildren, and praying about the coming year.

    This year, we traveled from Tasmania to Anchorage and lots of places in between, making 2013 our busiest year ever in terms of the amount of conferences we hosted. We went to far-away places like Australia and New Zealand and made stops all across the United States, with conferences in California, Texas, Alabama, South Carolina, New York, Oklahoma, Georgia, Virginia, Missouri, Pennsylvania, Idaho, North Carolina, and Alaska.

    I feel it has been a year of victories. One of the highlights of the year for me was conducting the Master’s Plan for Fatherhood conferences around the country. I believe, more than ever, that the equipping of fathers is the primary cause for the spread of the Gospel and the reformation of church and family life. The church cannot have qualified elders without first having faithful fathers who manage their households well. Similarly, without qualified elders you cannot have well-functioning churches. Now that I have 12 grandchildren, I am even more attentive to the importance of the various seasons in a father’s life.

    It has also been a year of great sorrow. The burdens have been particularly heavy since September, when I learned of the infidelities of Doug Phillips spanning many years. I pray that these matters will result in the purging of sin, the healing of all, and the purifying of the church by causing all of us to fear God, humble ourselves, expose sin, repent of sin, cling to the truth contained in the Word of God, fix our eyes on Jesus and not man, continue to press for the reformation of our lives according to Scripture, and remember the power of the Gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ. Galatians 6:1-4; Romans 1:16; Hebrews 12:1-29; 1 Corinthians 15:3-4; Matt 11:28; Isaiah 1:16-20.

    I am profoundly reminded of the deceitfulness of sin. Even though people are capable of speaking truth or teaching important things, if we do not fight the seeds of lust, pride, and idolatry with the power of the Spirit, they will take over like gangrene and negatively affect absolutely everything we have done and will do in our lives. May we purpose to walk humbly in faith and “exhort one another daily, while it is call ‘Today’, lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin” (Hebrews 3:13).

    • Jen Says:

      Here’s the second half: 🙂

      As the year 2014 approaches, my focus continues to be centered on the prosperity of these two supremely important institutions–the church and the family. Nothing less than the spread of the Gospel is at stake. I plan to continue to work for the establishment of biblically-ordered churches, a restoration of of biblical fatherhood and motherhood, and the return to the biblical functionality of the family.

      In order to do this, I am looking forward to continuing in my work as an elder in our local church in Wake Forest, writing, meeting with church leaders around the nation, and speaking at and hosting conferences.

      I hope you can all attend Church and Family 2014, our national conference where we will go back to the basics to affirm the importance of reformation within the church and family that we so desperately need. This conference is designed to go back to the foundational doctrine of the sufficiency of Scripture, to re-examine the state of the church ad family in 2014, and to understand how to faithfully apply God’s Word to the unique moment we find our churches and families in.

      Our lives are to be like “cities on a hill.” With growing apostasy in America now more than ever, we continually need to look again to Scripture. We need to walk carefully in love for the lost and those around us. We need a courageous resolution from the Lord as “aliens and strangers” attempting to be “in the world but not of the world.”

      I hope to see you all this upcoming year as I speak and gather to pray with church leaders at conferences in Arizona, Washington, Colorado, Iowa, Missouri, Illinois, Washington, D.C., and North Carolina. 2014 will also include international gatherings in Bogota, Colombia; Quito, Ecuador; and Blantyre, Malawi.

      Look for upcoming announcements, as I plan to invite men to Wake Forest for gatherings specifically designed to equip church leaders on matters of church life such as church discipline and expository preaching.

      In many ways, I feel that the Lord is ushering in a season of renewed fruitfulness and closing the chapter on a season of significant growth. For both of these, my heart is grateful. I look back on the past decade with gratitude and I look forward to the next with great hope. The desire in my heart is to see a generation of pastors rise up to shepherd their people to delight in the Word of God, and who bravely and lovingly labor to precisely exegete the Scriptures.

      I believe that true reformation in the church and the spread of the Gospel in the world occurs in the simplest of settings. It occurs each night around the dinner table as fathers open the Scriptures and teach their families to worship the living God. It occurs in local congregations when families gather together for further instruction and for the corporate worship of God. It occurs when people see the beauty of Jesus and cannot keep silent about Him.

      With a heart of gratitude, my earnest prayer is that God would grant you the many victories of the power of the Gospel. I pray for a season of joy in Christ and fruitfulness in your families and churches this year.

      Sincerely,

      Scott Brown
      Director, NCFIC

      • PioneerHomeschooler Says:

        Sorry, but this is genuinely terrifying. There are too many people, at least in VF Mecca, who are going to fall for this.

      • Molly Says:

        Patriarchy is not dead. 😦

      • DesiringToDiscern Says:

        South American interests are…interesting

        • JourneyGirl Says:

          Yes! But the unsuspecting people in South America have no money, so I predict that the ‘interests’ won’t really yield any profit. I doubt it will go anywhere.

      • SamuraiKatz Says:

        I feel particularly bad for Beall and her children. Cassandra and her family also need time to heal and move on.
        The VF carcass isn’t even cold and Scott Brown, Turley and no doubt others are out there like a pack of hyenas fighting over what is left. Disgusting.

        • Jen Says:

          SamuraiKatz, how in the world will Cassandra and her family “move on?” VF/BCA is their WHOLE life. It is not that easy, believe me.

        • SamuraiKatz Says:

          Jen I’ve had my own ecape from controlling unbiblical churchianity. Fixing one’s life after this kind of spiritual/ecclesiastical/financial abuse takes time. I can’t imagine trying to find my way back to wholeness with newsletters like the ones from Brown and Turley popping up every time you turn around. Doug deserves whatever he gets. Wife ,children and Cassandra and family do not. I am seventeen years post escape. I will never be a member of any church ever again. PS I’ve read your blog and I relate to what you and your family have been through as well.

        • Jen Says:

          Samurai, thanks for being here. We need people like who have been through this before to help those who are hurting now. I appreciate it.

        • UMMM..... Says:

          Well Jen, Cassandra and her family can move on with Christ. You act as though a man is more powerful than the Lord. Our HOPE comes from the Lord. HE is Sovereign. Or do you all still believe that a man is “all powerful”? I am replying to Jen when she questions: “How in the world will Cassandra and her family move on? This is coming from someone who has by God’s grace been able to glorify the Lord after a lifetime of abuse in a much worse and longer situation of control and abuse, because I believe that God has a purpose for everything that happens in my life.

        • Jen Says:

          UMMM….., this is actually a good question. Thank you for asking. Certainly Cassandra and her family can maintain their faith in Christ and grow, and I certainly hope they do grow in the knowledge and grace of JESUS because He simply wasn’t preached at BCA.

          I was guess I was thinking of what happens when a family suddenly loses all their friends. When BCA is your WHOLE life, for 15 years, it is not so easy to just “move on.” I suppose that is why we still see them at all the weddings and community events. I thank God that at least they have those, because life really hurts when you lose ALL fellowship with everyone you know.

          As far as moving on, perhaps with Doug leaving, Cassandra’s family will just be able to continue on with life as usual for them, in the community, but without daily life with the Phillips family. Move on? For them, it will not be that easy. They will always be connected in some way, but I pray for healing and growth.

      • fact Says:

        “Deborah and I just returned from our last conference of the year in beautiful Anchorage, Alaska, promoting the importance of a “God-Centered Family.” Scott Brown

        A MAN and a MESSAGE:

        THE MAN:
        Go visit his hometown, talk to people outside his circles, those in the community or those who moved from far away to join the movement but then left, talk to other local pastors, talk to his own extended family. Ask yourself how Scott could have been so wrong about Doug and yet never apologize to the thousands of people like you that he led to the slaughter. Get the facts before you throw more money away.

        For me, I know the damage this man has caused in the lives of others, I know how Scott betrayed his father in law in business by working as a partner with him then leaving to start a competing business in the same community. I know how Scott invited several men from North Wake Baptist Church (where he was an elder) to attend a conference with him then on the last day announced to them all that he was leaving to start his own church in the same community and wanted them to follow him. I know how Scott ignored the counsel of two of his own new (first set) elders who warned him of the disastrous course he was on, who then left the church because Scott would not listen. I know how Scott split Trinity Church to avoid church discipline by the church majority and two of the (second set) elders. I know how Scott transferred his membership to a sister church days before he split Trinity so this sister church could officially “send” him to start Hope Baptist (a church he never attended “sent” him). Scott has always been a one man show, he is accountable to no one. He has never submitted to the plurality of elder authority he so passionately preaches.
        For those who are looking to follow a man, Scott is eager to lead you as you can see from his letter. For those looking to follow Jesus, then follow Jesus, its pretty much that simple.

        THE MESSAGE:
        Nobody here denies the importance of a God centered family, the bible sufficiently teaches this. But the bible is not sufficient, that’s why you need Scott to tell you:
        Sunday School is sin
        Working women is a sin
        Its not normal for a woman to work as a co-equal with a man
        College is a sin
        You must homeschool
        Jeans are rebellious for women (the cut of the leg leads straight to the crotch)
        Your husband is your King
        Your wife is your servant
        You must have as many kids as possible
        Do not play on the sabbath
        ANY program that separates the family, even for an hour a week, is wrong
        You should own your own business
        Single women need to stay at home
        Single women should work for their dad (or Doug)

        This list can go on….please add to it. Do you see where it’s going, these are men teaching their own gospel. They are so confident in their own holiness that they can declare to the world that Christian rappers are disobedient cowards, not only is this slander, it was said in the midst of their silence on Doug’s sex scandal. Run from these men, get away. The man and the message have issues.

        • Mel. Says:

          It is my understanding SB also believes women should not vote.

        • Just a shadow Says:

          DP taught the same thing – only the man of the house should vote.

        • Jen Says:

          fact, it is my understanding that Doug Phillips was involved behind the scenes in all that Scott Brown did in splitting churches and starting new ones as well. It was all very duplicitous, and he doesn’t hesitate to encourage others to split churches over that long list of man-made rules you listed above.

          Yes, RUN! Run for your very lives!

        • Jen Says:

          Mykl, if you see “facts” list above, that is a great starting place for Doug Phillips’ and Scott Brown’s brand of patriarchy. What do you think of that list?

      • JourneyGirl Says:

        The gospel according to Scott Brown. Time to tighten our boot straps, folks! There is work to be done. It ain’t over ’til Christ returns. 2 Tim. 3:12-15: “Indeed, all who desire to live godly in Christ Jesus will be persecuted. But evil men and importers will proceed from bad to worse, deceiving and being deceived. You, however , continue in the things you have learned and become convinced of, knowing from whom you have learned them, and that from childhood you have known the sacred writings which are able to give you the wisdom that leads to salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus….. For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine;but wanting to have their ears tickled, they will accumulate for them
        selves teachers in accordance to their own desires and will turn away their ears from the truth and will turn aside to myths. But YOU, be sober in all things, endure hardship, do the work of an evangelist, fulfill your ministry.” (2 Tim 4:3-5) Whew!

      • amom Says:

        DtoD
        I totally agree about people being accountable for their own actions. And I do understand that people can take what they read to the extreme, and that the author is not be responsible for that. I was referring to the footage and commentary I read from the Pearls after. That is why I brought up love. Additionally by our example/teaching we should do our best to not cause others to stumble/sin, even if in our conscience it is not. Yes I have looked at their stuff. Since it could go off topic I will refrain from more thoughts on it. Thank you for clarifying personal responsibility which I am all for

  8. A Dad Says:

    It’s interesting to note how SB is now on the luxury world-wide travel bandwagon that DP perfected. Does SB dress up in costumes as well as he travels around the world or was that just a DP thing?

    By the way, in terms of timeline, SB mentions “September” as the month of sorrow over DP. So why did it take two months or so before DP resigned? Shouldn’t that be an immediate thing? Why did the VFM board have to spend two months trying to figure out what to do?

    In terms of others that are picking up where DP and VF left off are none other than Kevin Turley (the recently out-of-work VF conference coordinator), who is evidently trying to cash in on the VF Faith and Freedom market by launching Landmark Events using the same very boring “expert historians” that VF used and retreading most of the same old sites. KT launched Landmark Events as the president and sent out an email to past Faith and Freedom tour guests/suckers. (Email text is below).

    He’s trying to do 15 tours in 2014. Doesn’t anyone get tired of hearing these same guys? Sorry KT, but I don’t think this will fly. These types of things usually only work with a pompous, charismatic leader, not a pompous leader without any personality. And I don’t think the market is big enough to support 15 tours. Now that VF blew up, I think wisdom is seeping into the “movement” and fracturing it beyond repair.

    Oh, and by the way, wouldn’t that attendee list be a VFM or VFI asset? So why does KT get to rip that off? Shouldn’t it be part of the assets of the shut down that goes to wherever all good shut down ministry assets go? Or to the creditors of VFI if they have liabilities that exceed assets?

    Here’s the link to the doomed new “business” – sorry, “ministry”: http://www.landmarkevents.org/pages/about-us

    Be sure to rush your donations now before the end of the year to improve KT’s lifestyle! Notice the “ministry” needs towards the end of his intro email that you can send him checks to support.

    Here’s the body of KT’s intro email:
    =======================

    Introducing Landmark Events!

    Dear friends,

    Kevin Turley President, Landmark Events
    Kevin Turley
    President, Landmark Events

    You and I share a passion. We rejoice in seeing God’s great governance in the affairs of men and nations, and we desire that our loved ones see it as well. We have traveled together to the actual sites where He has deposed kings and raised others up, and where He has used seemingly insignificant characters to alter the course of history. Learned men have told us the stories and taught us the lessons, helping us to apply them in our lives today and teach them to the generations to follow.

    On this remarkable journey, we have forged friendships with others who set their hope in God and pledge not to forget His works. Many of these friendships have grown beyond family to family, now spanning from generation to generation, as beautifully described in Psalm 78. It has been wonderful. . . but we want more and are moving forward in faith with a new venture called Landmark Events. We created Landmark Events to encourage and edify families by preserving providential history and facilitating events that prepositionally address the ethical issues of our time.

    Launching Landmark Events

    With the blessing of the Lord, and help from some of you, we hope to offer at least 15 different “Landmarks in History” events in 2014. We will begin in Florida, February 13-15, with our Pirates, Presidents, Conquistadors & More tour. Our web site is under construction, but you can get a glimpse here:

    Visit Our Web Site at LandmarkEvents.org

    Events in the Works

    In addition to our first tour in Florida, we are actively planning events in Charleston, Washington D.C., Philadelphia, Plymouth, New Orleans, Richmond, Nashville, Boston, Williamsburg, Spartanburg and more!

    We will offer a wide range of tours throughout the year to accommodate a variety of interests, schedules, and budgets. Whether it’s a weekend car tour, or an extended full-service tour, you can count on Landmark Events to provide you with exceptional instruction and first-class service for an experience you won’t forget!

    To stay informed of upcoming events and to receive helpful articles and interesting commentaries on current events, we encourage you to sign up for our e-mail newsletter.

    Signup for the Landkark Events E-mail Newsletter

    Event Speakers

    Event speakers will include such distinguished scholars and gifted teachers as Bill Potter, Dr. Paul Jehle, Col John Eidsmoe, Dr. Marshall Foster, Richard Holland, Dan Ford and more.

    How You Can Help

    Our plans are ambitious, but our Lord tells us that He is able to do exceedingly abundantly above all that we ask or think. If you share our passion and would like to help, we would appreciate your consideration.

    Landmark Events is a 501(c)(3) and your donations are fully deductible. Checks can be sent to Landmark Events, P.O. Box 242, Centerville, TN 37033 or you can donate online here.

    Support the Work of Landmark Events

    Some have asked specifically what our needs are and we have humbly listed a few below for consideration:

    Accounting Software

    $279

    Event Management Web Platform

    $4,000/yr.

    Website Design and Programming

    $1,800/mo.

    Wireless Guiding System with 115 Receivers

    $17,000

    Event Scholarships for Individuals and Families

    Friends, most of all we covet your prayers as we get underway. Pray that we steadfastly focus on God’s glory as we proceed. We need His blessing. We need His guidance.

    “Walk about Zion, and go round about her: tell the towers thereof. Mark ye well her bulwarks, consider her palaces; that ye may tell it to the generation following. For this God is our God for ever and ever: he will be our guide even unto death.” —Psalms 48:12-14
    We look forward to seeing you at a Landmark event soon!

    Gratefully,

    Kevin Turley,
    President, Landmark Events

    • Maxwell Says:

      They have an accountant on their board and can’t afford $279 for accounting software? They’re doomed.

    • Jen Says:

      A Dad, wow. Thank you for sharing that with us. So Kevin Turley is going to provide opportunities for all those young single men to find a young lady for their fathers to court after all.

      Good luck with that! I know he’s trying to cash in on his experience and this once-in-a-lifetime opportunity, but fifteen tours in 2014? So, Justin gets to continue doing website design, they will eventually find a husband for their daughter, and we will all pretend that all his kids are perfect. Perhaps if he admitted that they are just a normal family, they might actually have a better chance.

      • LoveMyFamily Says:

        [Hi, Jen and thank you for your blog!!! This is my first time commenting.]
        Exactly!!! You have defined one of the reasons our family believes that many continue to attend these events and churches. Many families are at the point of despair that they will not find spouses for their children. It is so sad to see older adult children living at home and not having many options for meeting a potential spouse. All of the parents that we know in this situation went to college. Most met their spouse in college or after college while *gasp* working…for “outside” employers and not a family business … since none of them came from entrepreneurial families 😉

        • Jen Says:

          LoveMyFamily, welcome! It is amazing how one thing necessarily leads to another. If we embrace courtship only, and we don’t attend a church with a suitable spouse, it leaves very few options without Doug Phillips’ matchmaking skills via events and conferences. They truly are a great way to meet people, but not at the expense of how many ended up being hurt, and not at the expense of the extreme legalism wrapped up within. If there are new events that come about as a result of this, I pray that they will embrace a whole lot more grace. Kevin’s Turley’s version is NOT the answer, as much as I used to like the Turleys.

        • LoveMyFamily Says:

          Thank you and God Bless you, Jen!

    • The Mrs Says:

      Mr Turley lives in Centerville, TN. Where is Botkin’s church?????

  9. Scott Says:

    I don’t see Scotty having the talent or charisma to pull it all off , or BEAM everyone up from the distruction of vision forum to the starship Integration. He is a dreadful speaker and about as affable as a rattle snake. Frankly along with Geoffro Botkin I find him to be a third string player at best. His son n law isn’t going to have the right stuff either. If he is smart he would find a new career path away from this nonsense of fixing all the churches of the world while he is still young.

    That being said it will be hilarious to watch Geoffro & Sir snotty Scotty compete for the sought after throne vacated by the Doug. It’s obvious they are already ramping things up to benefit personally from the collapse of VF.

    One thing I would have to say about Doug is he knew how to market to a niche of people that were not real fast to question and compare his teachings to scripture. I don’t think that will happen again to this extent as people have been burned big time. From what I have seen Scott Brown and Mr. Botkin don’t have that great of understanding of God’s word. They have this way of sort of setting themselves out there as experts and talking in a way that seems authoritarian but when you really look deep, there is not much there. They exaggerate their self importance to such extent that it is hard not to be embarrassed for them. You are sitting there asking yourself who is falling for this crap.

    Ask yourselves what has either of these guys ever done. I mean really, has Botkin even supported his family ? I read of his foreclosure on another site, sad and pathetic . The guy is living of his kids efforts. These patriarchal boobs don’t seem do to well leading much of anything, yet here they are to fix all our churches and families.

    No thank you Botkin & Brown. Go start an ice cream shop or something and leave the body of Christ alone. It has done well for thousands of years without you, it will be ok.

    • Just a shadow Says:

      Did anyone else notice that SB used the word “infidelities” in his letter? Does this imply that there was more than one extra marital partner? It strikes me that way. I would think if SB was referring to Cassandra alone he would have used the word “infidelity”. Thoughts?

    • Jen Says:

      Scott, I love your insights here! Thanks for making us laugh even in light of a very serious situation.

  10. thatmom Says:

    R.C. Jr. is now part of the church denomination that James McDonald started.

    http://www.providencecpc.org

    I believe he is listed as a “traveling evangelist” and and elder at Heritage Church in tennessee, along with Marion Lovett who also left the RPCGA at the same time McDonald did, both when RC was defrocked.

    http://heritagecenterville.org

    • thatmom Says:

      Is Kevin Turley part of this church?

      • just a shadow Says:

        No, Turley is part of the Botkin church in TN

        • blessed2bamommy96 Says:

          The name of that church is Christ the King in Centerville. They had a web site but right now I’m not finding it. hmmmm There was another church in that same area that I thought Turley was connected to but I could be wrong. It is Grace Baptist Church. http://www.gracebaptistchurchcentervilletn.org/?p=1

        • Jen Says:

          b2bmommy, I had a look at that church’s website. It is EXACTLY like BCA, including all the documents and aids to worship, but I thought I would post their order of service, so everyone can see EXACTLY what a patriarchal service at BCA entailed:

          Lord’s Day Worship and Christian Fellowship

          Greet All and Welcome of Visitors**

          Opening Prayer** (Men pray in praise and adoration of God and pray for this corporate worship)

          Scripture Reading*

          Sing* – Hymn or Psalm (praise/adoration/thanksgiving)

          Sing* – Hymn or Psalm (praise/adoration/thanksgiving)

          Sing* – Hymn or Psalm (confession/repentance theme is preferable)

          Ordinance of the Lord’s Supper:** Exhortation and Administration (authorized man of the church)

          Sing* –Hymn or Psalm (victorious theme is preferable)

          Sermon** – Exposition of Specific Scripture or Topical (authorized man of the church)

          Confirmation** – Questions and Answers, Comments, and Testimony (men of the church)

          Sing* – Hymn or Psalm

          Corporate Prayer**(men lead in prayers of praise/adoration, confession, thanksgiving, supplication, and intercession; leader closes)

          Sing* – Hymn or Psalm

          Closing Prayer and Benediction (including prayer for the meal and time of Christian fellowship to follow)

          Announcements**

          Christian Fellowship and Meal (may include additional activities after the meal including: teaching, practice preaching, singing, baptism, testimony, etc.)

          A fellowship meal (each family contributing a main dish, and/or side, and/or dessert as they are able) follows at approximately 1:30pm. The time of fellowship normally concludes sometime between 3:30 and 5pm.

        • just a shadow Says:

          Oh. My. Gosh.

          Yep. That’s it.

          That’s exactly BCA.

        • Eileen Says:

          actually the Turleys are no longer with the Botkins at their church. The Botkin church that originally started several years ago has branched several churches there in that area (not sure how many). From that one church is atleast one Reformed Presby and atleast 2 Reformed baptist churches.

        • Anne Says:

          No. Turley is no longer a part of the Botkin church. They went their separate ways (for reason good/bad, I do not know) quite awhile ago. Turley was one of two elders in that church, but he stepped down earlier this year, leaving the “other” (non-Botkin) church without an elder.

        • Tom Says:

          Geoff B has only been in TN for four years and did not start any church there. He joined Kevin T in a church Kevin started with another guy called Phil or something like that. Then both Kevin and the other guy left to start something else (they had some issues I guess getting along with Geoff) and Geoff by default was left with the original church that Kevin had started. Typical church mess and issues and huge egos, etc. I just didn’t want you to give too much credit to Geoff for starting several churches. Kevin is probably the worst “elder” of them all in terms of his legalism. He’s only got a couple of other families in his church. Geoff has more in his because of his celebrity status (it’s a very little pond, so a big fish stands out). To my knowledge all of them are self-appointed elders and are not accountable to anyone or any denomination. Stay tuned for more messes and flareups.

        • Jen Says:

          Tom, thanks for clarifying these issues. I’m thinking that most would say that Kevin Turley isn’t exactly biblically “qualified” to be an elder either. His legalism seems to have pushed at least one child away.

        • Anne Says:

          Actually, the “other” church I referred to was NOT left without an elder, but certainly left without a ‘plurality’. I did not see that Eileen had already posted the similar information before I did!

        • Just a shadow Says:

          Tom – I’m trying to keep all the changes straight.

          How many churches are there now in TN that are VF influenced? And who heads each of them?

          From your post it seems there is :

          – the “Botkin” church( for lack of a better name) that was started by Kevin T. ( but who later left) & has the Botkins in it. Is Audri’s family( Dr. V) still in that church?

          – there is another church Kevin started but recently left? Is that correct ? Is it still in existence? Who heads it up?

          – there is Kevin Turleys new church? Is he the sole elder?

        • Molly Says:

          Why do the women even need to be there? To serve the food?

        • Tom Says:

          To my knowledge there are only two VF-influenced churches: Kevin’s and Geoff’s. I am not aware of Kevin leaving the church he has been at for two years because it was only four or five families including the two self-proclaimed elders (Kevin being one of them) and their married sons and one or two other families. There is another FIC there in the Centerville area that is Presbyterian and run by Marion Lovett, but to my knowledge he is not a VF-influenced or Scott Brown-influenced leader. Kevin and his church shun Marion and his church because of minor differences. Michael Pearl’s church is right down the road, but there is no overlap or relationships between any of those churches.

        • junktrunk Says:

          I’m thinking that most would say that Kevin Turley isn’t exactly biblically “qualified” to be an elder either.

          Jen: nope he’s FAR from qualified. His desire to be an elder at BCA in SA & the fact that he wasn’t allowed, was ONE of the motivating factors as to why they moved to TN to start a church.

        • Jen Says:

          Kevin Turley does have some abilities. I wish he would stick with those.

        • Tom Says:

          I agree that Kevin is not qualified. Nor is Geoff or Scott or Doug (BCA was founded on a lie). I’ve visited a number of the FIC, VF-related churches during my fling with the “movement” and in my observation most of the “elders” have never led or really succeeded at anything, so it is a huge power trip for them to be an “elder”. Finally they get to be in charge of something! The pattern appears to be to set up a church, proclaim themselves to be an elder, and then set up some really strict rules to as they attempt to rule their roost and draw people to themselves. And all the better if you can get free interns or female slave labor from your adoring members to help you make money off of the sales of your materials to help others be just as successful as you. Just be sure to write up your bio in a way that really makes you look good while providing no details.

          What is really unfortunate is all the people that actually picked up and moved to one of these churches/communities, whether it was San Antonio, Wake Forest, Centerville, etc. I’ve heard of families that experienced a lot of financial, career, and personal hardship by moving and joining with these “elders” and church “shepherds” only to be stuck when things don’t work out. Ouch! That’s a really painful lesson for them.

          Meanwhile are any of these elders or churches reaching out to their communities to save the lost, to serve the poor, to serve the widows, etc.? It seems more like they are trying to establish a separatist type of community and avoid most contact with the outside world. Not a lot of hope there for the future. Not a lot of love for the lost.

          Hopefully no one else is duped into moving to one of these communities to “sit at the feet of…” (fill in the blank with your favorite patriarch/guru). Hopefully there is no more wreckage and everyone can go back about their lives without the distraction of looking for wisdom from man. Only Christ has the answers.

        • just a shadow Says:

          Tom –

          I agree. Looking back, it is embarrassing to remember how starry eyed and gullible we were.

          Why did we not check credentials before trashing everything we’d ever known?

          Why did we not listen to those who tried to warn us?

          We lived it, and yet I look back and it’s like a dream watching someone else make poor decisions.

          Was that us? Unwise, quick to believe, slow to connect the dots?

          Yes, it was. And I still find it hard to explain totally, “why” we chose as we did.

        • Tom Says:

          JAS. Yes, I know what you mean. My wife and I often wonder “what were we thinking?” to even be drawn into the whole thing.

          One huge bonus is that our children will be soooo much wiser than we were. We’ve used this entire mess as a wonderful lesson with our children in terms of discernment, motives, false teachers, making life-impacting decisions, Biblical interpretation, etc.

        • Jen Says:

          Tom, our (collective) children will be so much wiser in THIS area than we were, but they WILL have their own areas to deal with in their lifetime. Life just seems to work that way!

        • junktrunk Says:

          For those that need reminding like I do on the qualifications of an elder:

          1 Timothy 3:
          1 Here is a trustworthy saying: Whoever aspires to be an overseer desires a noble task. 2 Now the overseer is to be above reproach, faithful to his wife, temperate, self-controlled, respectable, hospitable, able to teach, 3 not given to drunkenness, not violent but gentle, not quarrelsome, not a lover of money. 4 He must manage his own family well and see that his children obey him, and he must do so in a manner worthy of full[a] respect. 5 (If anyone does not know how to manage his own family, how can he take care of God’s church?) 6 He must not be a recent convert, or he may become conceited and fall under the same judgment as the devil. 7 He must also have a good reputation with outsiders, so that he will not fall into disgrace and into the devil’s trap.
          8 In the same way, deacons[b] are to be worthy of respect, sincere, not indulging in much wine, and not pursuing dishonest gain. 9 They must keep hold of the deep truths of the faith with a clear conscience. 10 They must first be tested; and then if there is nothing against them, let them serve as deacons.
          11 In the same way, the women[c] are to be worthy of respect, not malicious talkers but temperate and trustworthy in everything.
          12 A deacon must be faithful to his wife and must manage his children and his household well. 13 Those who have served well gain an excellent standing and great assurance in their faith in Christ Jesus.

        • junktrunk Says:

          I agree that Kevin is not qualified. Nor is Geoff or Scott or Doug (BCA was founded on a lie). Can you elaborate on BCA being founded on a “lie” Tom? I know why Kevin isn’t. I am pretty sure I know why Scott is……Doug is obvious but why is Geoff not qualified? I am floored that so many of the pastors and elders of the FIC churches and even churches in general (don’t get me started on pastors like Charles & Andy Stanley!!) that have pastors/elders that are not qualified!

        • Eileen Says:

          I am floored that so many of the pastors and elders of the FIC churches and even churches in general (don’t get me started on pastors like Charles & Andy Stanley!!) that have pastors/elders that are not qualified!

          Then there are others like Bill Potter, Joe Morecraft, and even some would say Voddie Baucham, who are considered “unqualifed” for not having “their house in order”…….but no one is keeping/holding them accountable!

        • Corrine Says:

          Why Voddie ?

    • JourneyGirl Says:

      I noticed RC Jr is listed as an elder. Oh snap. And where are all the other elders of the church? But you know what makes me the most upset after looking through the bio pages? How these types of dudes have infiltrated Samaritan Ministries. I think all of us SM members ought to let our voices be heard; they featured Scott Brown in their newsletter this past spring too. I love what Samaritan offers, but I cannot abide their embrace of patriarchy. Is no popular ministry or organization immune to the tentacles of dominionism? (rhetorical question)

      • Donna Says:

        JourneyGirl! Funny you mention Samaritan because we recently had to make a decision between them or MediShare. We procrastinated for literally MONTHS to sign up because we couldn’t make up our minds. In the end, we chose MediShare for various reasons, but I told my husband just the other day that I’ve begun noticing Samaritan advertised on ALL these patriarchy peeps’ websites and blogs, and now I’m more glad than ever that we went with the other group! I owe that to the Lord, because it was a really hard decision for us, and it was just a couple of “little” things that made us choose CCMS in the end. We didn’t know about the patriarchy folks’ infiltration of Samaritan at the time.

        • JourneyGirl Says:

          Glad for you! Unfortunately, we have to stay with Samaritan. But they will be hearing from me, and hopefully from others who have had it with allowing spiritually abusive leaders to have a voice in Christian ministries.

        • Scott Says:

          Donna, I was wondering about these medical sharing plans. Are they continuing after OBAMA care kicks in ? Since they aren’t insurance and don’t qualify are people just planning on paying the fine ? The fine starts out low next year ($90) but then goes to $1100 a year per person. It seems like that would kill off these programs pretty quick. I have always just paid for 100% of my medical care out of my business account and carried a catastrophic plan with a $15,000 deductable. Now that my insurance has been cancelled I’m shopping for an alternative and not finding much. I love it when government screws things up like this in their pursuit to redistribute our earnings. Kind of reminds me of what my high school history teacher warned us about. George Orwells 1984 is here, it just took a bit longer. Makes me sick to see what they have done to my country.

        • JourneyGirl Says:

          Samaritan has informed us that it qualifies under the terms of healthcare coverage for Obamacare. I haven’t looked into it in detail though in order to be able to actually explain how it works. We’re with Samaritan through my husband’s employer.

        • Jen Says:

          Scott, yes, the medical sharing plans count. However, if you don’t want to pay the fine, and you don’t want to be forced to buy something you don’t need/want, you just have to plan your taxes so that you end up owing at the end of year rather than receiving a refund. You can then refuse to pay the “fine” legally.

        • Donna Says:

          Scott, anyone who belongs to either CCMS or Samaritan is exempt (as a group member) from Obamacare requirements. It has something to do with religious exemptions, similar to the Amish. But I don’t know the particulars of the language, so if someone else wants to explain the technical and legal side of it, feel free. Mind you, it’s not *Christians* who are exempt, but MEMBERS OF certain established medical sharing groups that have already been deemed exempt.

          One reason we chose CCMS over Samaritan was because they offer Health Incentive discounts if all the adults in your family can prove good health, weight, etc. It’s a *positive* incentive to get your weight down and get healthy if you struggle with that, as well as any other health “issues” one might have. (Which in the long term saves *everybody* money.) The other reason we chose CCMS was because of the PPO list (which all of our doctors are on, so not an issue for us to be “restricted” to the list) and the fact that, from an administrative standpoint, CCMS *acts like* insurance in the way they negotiate billing, then sends a statement similar to an EOB showing which amounts will and will not be shared with other group members, and why. I know there are good reasons for some to choose Samaritan, too… we had a hard time deciding. But these were the factors that it came down to for us. And now that we know MORE about Samaritan (ahem), that’s an even bigger reason we’re glad we’re chose CCMS.

          I truly think it was the Lord because the reason we decided we liked the negotiating/administrative/PPO list way that CCMS does it vs. the way SM does it (go to any doctor you want, send payments directly from member to member rather than going through the group entity, etc.) was because we felt that SM’s way of doing it could potentially be a red flag some day due to lack of accountability. SM’s way just felt more like “I can do what I want without any accountability” — and now that we know what we know about DP, Botkins, et al, we can see the *necessity* of accountability. And I sure don’t want to be “accountable” to the staff at SM if many of them are members of a church within the Patriarchy movement! Especially if they’re as vocal as they as they are from the *pulpit* about telling you how to vote. I don’t want Doug Phillips or Geoff Botkin, or any of their peers, sharing in MY personal medical expenses, nor I in theirs!

      • LoveMyFamily Says:

        We know someone who interviewed at Samaritan. They told us that several of the staff attend the McDonald’s church.

        • JourneyGirl Says:

          Sad that Christians lack so much discernment.

        • Donna Says:

          Yikes. SO glad we went with CCMS! If we were paying into Samaritan, I (and I know my husband, too) would feel like we were funding the Patriarchy Movement and all the various money-making schemes that they’ve been running on the backs of one-income families all these years. No wonder the husbands don’t “have” to work for anybody else. WE (general “we”) are funding their whole lifestyles, including their health care!

          (Sorry, I know that’s not very compassionate of me. Because now I’m having a hard time separating genuine medical need of individuals from all the garbage coming out about the Patriarchy “world”.)

    • The Mrs Says:

      I thought RC Jr lived in Florida now? And I read somewhere recently that his daughter is going to be spending more time in Arkansas (I believe) soon. Are they moving there????

      The church where Marion used to pastor has become cultish. Very sad. The pastor (who says he is an ordained elder in the PCA but now claims to be a reformed baptist church and he isn’t ordained baptist…) excommunicated a family last year because they made him mad. He is now busy pestering the pastor of the new church they are attending telling him what a trouble making family they are. Can’t these cult leaders leave people alone????

  11. Martin Says:

    “With growing apostasy in America now more than ever, we continually need to look again to Scripture. … The desire in my heart is to see a generation of pastors rise up to shepherd their people to delight in the Word of God, and who bravely and lovingly labor to precisely exegete the Scriptures.”

    I smell Dominion.

    • Jen Says:

      Martin, Dominion Theology, I have come to determine, is no different from that of the Muslims. “We will do whatever we need to in order to take over the whole world. If people get hurt (or killed) in the process, so be it.”

      Regarding Scott Brown teaching others how to precisely exegete Scripture, I have never heard him. Will someone please clarify if this is an area Scott Brown excels in? Because if so, I want to know how he got the “Biblical Tenets of Patriarchy” out of those verses exegetically?

      • JourneyGirl Says:

        I’ve attended Brown’s church and listened to his preaching. He’s very good at eisegesis and topical study. I’ve never heard a good exigetical, expository message from him. But he comes across as fatherly, sincere and passionate about the Lord and it’s easy to see how people can get drawn into whatever he is teaching.

        • Jen Says:

          JourneyGirl, so how do you suppose Scott Brown will teach these other men to do precise exegesis? I am quite curious about this.

        • JourneyGirl Says:

          I suppose he’ll begin with redefining the term and then proceed with giving credence to whomever embraces his terminology. Maybe he’ll even try to establish his own Living Room Seminary of Patriarchy, offering classes on Eisegesis 101, “How to fit the top 10 tenets of patriarchal dominion into any verse of the Bible”. After all, that’s how these things get started! (oh, was that a rhetorical question?)

        • junktrunk Says:

          I find people like Scott Brown and Bill Potter borrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrring….a big snooze fest!

        • JourneyGirl Says:

          Ahhahahaa! I totally agree. I really struggled to sit through Brown’s sermons when I visited Trinity years ago. But I can see how many people like that style. As for Potter, not only was he boring, he is totally biased in his presentation of history. Not all of us need to be told what to believe! Some of us homeschoolers learned to think for ourselves.

      • Donna Says:

        “Regarding Scott Brown teaching others how to precisely exegete Scripture, I have never heard him. Will someone please clarify if this is an area Scott Brown excels in? Because if so, I want to know how he got the “Biblical Tenets of Patriarchy” out of those verses exegetically?”

        Good question. We’ve had a couple of excellent pastors over the years who teach exegetically (just a couple, unfortunately), including our current pastor, and while they do get male leadership, men loving their wives as Christ loved the church and women respecting their husbands, modesty (not “dresses only”), children are a blessing from the Lord, etc. from the Scripture (all of that is definitely there if you read the whole thing!), they do NOT get “Biblical Tenets of Patriarchy according to Doug Phillips, Scott Brown, and Geoff Botkin”.

        I consider true exegetical teaching to be straight through whole books, breaking it down phrase by phrase with grammatical, Greek, cultural, and historical context included. Not topical. Topical sermons CAN be done exegetically, but they have to be a lot more careful, IMO, because otherwise it’s too easy to get off on their favorite soapbox of the week. (Or to use it to “attack” someone in the congregation.) So if Brown is preaching topically, then it may not actually be “exegetical”?

        • JourneyGirl Says:

          Donna, exactly. His teaching isn’t exigetical. I used the word ‘eisegesis’ which means to read into the text, rather than to extract from the text.

      • NC Says:

        I know Scott Brown is capable of correct exegesis, he has done it in the past and presently does it in areas of the Bible that agree with his theology. The problem of course is when scripture is silent, or worse yet in opposition to what he believes. He has made some of the most outrageous declarations (see the list from “facts” somewhere above) and then proceed to defend them with “data points” or “normative patterns”. As any student of the Bible SHOULD know, you don’t build your theology on data points and normative patterns, that being said I would not recommend Scott to teach anyone how to exegete scripture.

        • Jen Says:

          NC, thank you for that explanation. I know what “normative patterns” are, although they are not a proper use of biblical hermeneutics, but what are these “data points?”

        • NC Says:

          A data point is any place in the Bible where the subject at hand is mentioned either directly of indirectly. Data points don’t need to be taken in context because they are just points where information about a subject can be listed and used for any slight advantage it may offer a particular teaching. For instance, take the teaching that it is not normal for women to be in an equal position with a man in the workplace, Biblical Patriarchy cites two passages to support this, Judges 4 (Deborah and Barak) and Acts 16:11-15 (Lydia, seller of purple), neither of which can be used to support this teaching, but because they both contain “points” where one can see both “women” and “working”, they get listed under the teaching as if they bear witness to it.

          Take a close look at the Tenants of Biblical Patriarchy and look at each passage that is being citied to support the claim, many times the correct interpretation of the passage has nothing to do with the teaching. Thus the old saying, “a text without a context is a pretext”

        • Jen Says:

          NC, thank you for that definition on data points. I am working on some exegetical articles, so I need to know where in the world they get their crazy thinking from!

    • GMV Says:

      Pastor Larry Debruyan has a web sight “Guarding His Flock” where he has written wonderful articles against dominionism and why it’s wrong. If anyone is interested.

  12. JustTruth Says:

    Does anyone know anything of Gary Powers who spoke at VF Family and Food conference?

    • LoveMyFamily Says:

      He has his own FIC in WI. He also owns a successful company (I think he manufactures supplements/vitamins?). He also has a store that sells grass-fed beef, etc., which his daughters manage. His church sometimes participates in events with other local FIC.

  13. Don F. Says:

    Jen,

    I have been reading here for a couple months and the string of thoughts is incredible. Both the mess with VF and then all the comments. But, I have a question back more at the root of the theology in question. I will state it in a minute. There has been much back and forth about ladies’ roles, etc and so I would ask you to give me a concise answer to the following so I can know where you as the blog author are coming from. FYI, I am not an FIC fan, nor Phillips, Brown, etc… I do not follow them nor their teachings. There is much error in what they have taught, but I am concerned about the root matters of Scriptural authority.

    Scripture in Titus 2 tells us that the older Christian lady is to encourage the younger ladies to ‘love their husbands, to love their children, to be sensible, pure, workers at home, kind being subject to their own husbands, so that the word of God will not be dishonored.” Or course there are direct instructions to the older men and the younger men as well. No one is left out. So here is my question:

    We have daughters. Why should we not teach them to pursue the home as their career? Paul is clearly telling Titus that this is what the older ladies in the church are to teach to the younger ladies. If I may use some old, outdated language – ‘to be keepers at home’. The NASB says better “workers at home”.

    Now before I get avalanched in those who think I am a DP Patriarchy supporter, etc. because I am not, let me state what some men have already stated on this thread, that husbands are to be kind and gentle to their wives, treat them as equals before God, confide in them, sacrificially love them, etc. No room for tyrants, etc. There is no room for rudeness or abuse, but assuming a man is genuinely working to be the kind of Ephesians 5 husband spoken of by Paul, then please help me know why it is wrong to teach our daughters to deliberately pursue the home as their career? It is exactly what the Apostle Paul says. Is this authoritative for us or is it optional?

    No tricks, no games – should we teach our daughters this? If so, why is there all the rage against it on this blog. And if not, how do you justify this ignoring of clear Scriptural instruction?

    Again, it is ok for others to reply, but it is your reply that I want to know. Are you in agreement that this is an authoritative Scriptural directive? If not, why not? I want to clearly understand the rationale that says we can ignore this as a genuine instruction to our daughters as their vocational choice?

    Thanks,
    Don

    • oneh20 Says:

      Hi Don. I know you would like Jen’s reply, but I thought I’d share quickly before I run out the door. Teach them to be keepers of the home, amen. But don’t limit them to that. I think of Mary Slessor, Gladys Alyward, Amy Carmichael, etc. They were probably taught Titus 2 quite well, but none of them married and they all went on to do wonderful things with their lives, even heroic. They all loved the Lord and led many to salvation, dealt with male leaders in Africa, India, and China among other things. They took risks, were wise, and fully replied upon God.

    • stillhealing Says:

      I haven’t seen any rage against women being home makers. I have been a home maker for 17 years and also home school my children, as do many other ladies on here.

      If my daughter wanted to get married, have children, and be a stay at home mom I would be thrilled! I had no support from my family or society when I made that same choice. But I married young and started my family young as well. Not all girls meet the right man and marry when they are barely twenty 🙂 Before I married I worked full time, and then I went to college to study nursing and discovered I was not made to be a nurse, though God certainly used that training to help me as a mother to three asthmatics. But that’s a whole other story.

      The rage is directed at the abusive treatment of women and girls, where they are treated as objects and not persons, as NOT being equal in worth to men. Also the practice of some to deny their girls a higher education or even to give them a decent level of high school education is disturbing. Telling girls they are not allowed to go to college and must live at home serving their fathers until they meet Mr. Right is disturbing.

      For example, a few years ago I read the book “When You Rise Up” by R.C. Sproul Jr. In that book he tells the story of a girl in a large homeschooling family. If I remember correctly she was at least ten years old. She had had no formal education, could not even READ, despite being “home schooled” because she was so busy caring for her younger siblings. R.C. had no problem with this because as far as he was concerned, what she was learning was more important than reading and math.

      The other issue would be that women working outside the home is called SIN and I would call that legalism. To call something SIN that the Bible does not is very dangerous indeed. Also, we all know that there are times when a woman must work whether she would like to or not, such as a single mom, disabled or out of work husband, and many other scenarios I won’t get into here. I live in an area that really struggles with poverty and know of many families who could not pay the bills on one income. VF and others leave no room for even that!

      Even the woman of Proverbs 31 was contributing financially to her household while also running her home. There are many women who do photography, write books/blogs, teach music lessons, run various home businesses, and pursue their unique gifts and talents while their family is still their main focus and passion. It doesn’t have to be “you will be a wife and mother, and nothing else or you are sinning.”

    • A Dad Says:

      One of the big problems with the patriarchy movement is that the parents assume certain things for their daughters and especially the father, who often plays the role of mediator and plans his daughter’s life without giving the Lord the chance to call, guide, or direct that daughter. Take the GB 200-year plan, where the father plans the next 200 years for all of his descendants. How do those descendants respond to the will of the Lord when somewhere way back up the line some man determined what they were supposed to due (like take over NZ). It is the height of arrogance to project your will onto your children. By only preparing your daughter to be a keeper at home, you are basically ruling out all other possibilities for how the Lord might call her. What if she is called to be an attorney and play a role fighting against the sex trade. Oops, the parents didn’t allow her to study Latin, or other high school studies, but enslaved her to take care of the younger children. How can she ever get back on track to exercise her giftings and calling if she wasn’t prepared for any outcome as far back as junior high?

      We have NT examples of women co-founding churches with their husbands (look at Paul’s salutations in his letters), we also have Lydia, a wealthy entrepreneur who helped fund the NT church in Asia, etc. What if Lydia’s father had only prepared her to cook and take care of babies? Who would have been there to fund and house Paul and his companions as they launched the Church in Asia?

    • LoveMyFamily Says:

      I am not sure if this rambling response really belongs under your post, but here it is, in all of its wordiness 🙂
      Being “sensible, pure, workers at home” does not exclude furthering one’s skills and education. Many VF/FIC families are opposed to college or jobs for their daughters (and sometimes sons). I don’t sense any “rage” against training daughters on this blog. I do appreciate the call to balance and truth. My read from most commenters is that they want the best Jesus has for their families, since they no longer want to be deceived or driven by fear and rules created by men. Since I was not trained to “keep a home,” a little bit of training would have been awesome for me, after we were blessed with children! I am training our children (boys/girls) to cook, clean, do laundry, maintain the inside and outside of the house, etc. Home-keeping skills are important for men and women, whether God blesses them with a marriage or not. I hope that the Lord blesses each of our children with godly spouses and children. I also pray that the moms of our grandchildren will be able to stay home caring for them. The issue we have seen in those opposed to post-secondary education/careers for daughters in particular, is that their daughters are almost stuck in a waiting mode forever…waiting, waiting, while they cook, clean and care for younger siblings or help with the children of other families. Our children (and my husband and I) thrive on learning, challenges (whether educational, physical, or other) and new experiences. Some stay-at-home daughters that we know who are nearing 30 seem to be almost withering on the vine. Some of them are still treated as children by their parents. They are not included in adult conversation. They are supposed to tend to their younger siblings at gatherings, while their parents fellowship. Some of them do not have their driver’s licenses. They have no or little ability to earn an income. If they remain single — even though they want nothing more than to have families of their own — how will they support themselves after their parents pass on? Will they be a burden to their siblings, most of whom will already have lots of mouths to feed and bills to manage? One scary aspect of lack of education/opportunities that we have seen is the lack of an ability to think for oneself!!! This is so common among the parents and their adult children! Even if our children are at-home supports to their family once married, we want them to have the ability to provide truth, balance, constructive criticism and not fall prey to false theology or be swayed by “group-think.” It is hard to be a Holy-spirit led logical, critical thinker who can stand against the tide if one hasn’t had the training and exposure to hone these abilities. College isn’t necessary for this, of course 😉 (fyi – We are leaving the college option up to our children and the Lord. We hope that they will seek His best and train in the area which they are passionate about. Maybe college will appeal to our daughters and future daughter-in-laws … or maybe it won’t.) It is crazy to speak with a wife or adult at-home daughter and find out she doesn’t feel comfortable even trying a new recipe without her husband’s/dad’s approval or expressing any opinions about anything. If I was raised this way, I don’t know how I could ever trust myself to make any decisions at all! Skills and education, in the area of one’s God-given abilities, really enhance life and can make life and relationships more interesting. Plus, they can be a blessing to others. May God bless us all wisdom, as we seek His help navigating the best for our families.

    • Jen Says:

      Don F, I appreciate your frankness and welcome! I am more than happy to answer your question, and I will give you the bottom line here, but I will be addressing each of these issues in upcoming blog articles where we will discuss what the Bible says about each of them. Unfortunately, as a working woman myself, I don’t have unlimited time. 🙂

      In Titus 2:5, the Greek word “oikourgos” has been translated as keepers at home, or workers at home. I like to dig a little deeper and find out the meaning of the word. If we look at how this word was used contemporaneously, we find that it describes one who not only works at home, but keeps watch over and guards the home as well. This tells me that when I say, “No, that movie is not coming in this house,” that I am “guarding” the home, as one example. In other words, I don’t have to run ask my husband before making that decision, but ideally, we will have the same values so it won’t be an issue. In my case, it was an issue, as my (ex) would have allowed pretty much anything the children wanted to do, so I was also the “gatekeeper” of the home.

      I also notice that this passage says that the older women are to encourage the younger women to do these various things. To me, this means that when a young lady gets married and has kids, the best possible scenario is for her to stay home and raise her children and take care of the family home while the husband earns a living to provide for his family. Yes, that is ideal. When at all possible, this also involves the older women helping the younger women to do this so that they do not feel overwhelmed by it all. Still, ideal.

      But sometimes real life gets in the way. For example, the man does not make enough money, especially in this economy, for the family to be able to survive on his income. Now, there can be several issues here. It may be that the young man was not fully prepared for marriage yet, or that this young couple has not been properly trained in how to handle finances, or it could be that something unforeseen came up, like all the Vision Forum employees losing their jobs. Or a zillion other scenarios.

      But my bottom line is this: it is NOT a sin if a young wife with young children goes to work. It is not a sin, and it is not ideal, but there will be natural consequences in the home, most certainly. Sometimes it cannot be helped. Sometimes it is a choice of selfishness. But families always do much better when there are two parents: the dad who works hard to provide for his family, and the mom who stays home raising her kids.

      Now, before those kids come along, is that young lady, married or not, required to stay home and take care of her father’s home (absolutely NOT!!!) or her own home with her husband? No. I don’t see that in Scripture. If she is able to work and make sure that her own home life is thriving, then she is free to do so. To me, the key here seems to be those young wives with children. Likewise, as the children grow older, if the women desire to work outside the home, it is NOT a sin to do so. When your children are old enough (it was age twelve in Bible times), then you are no longer a “young woman” who is encouraged to stay at home full-time. There is nothing in this passage that prohibits women from working at all.

      This is an area of freedom. My biggest concern in all this is when one person tells another it is a sin for a young woman not to stay at home full time. Ideal? Yes. A sin issue? No.

      • Jen Says:

        Ha! I see that several commenters here all said basically the same thing I did! I’m glad I’m not alone in seeing this!

      • Observer Says:

        Excellent thread. Thanks for clarifying.

      • raswhiting Says:

        Along these lines, the Radio Bible Class podcast, Discover the Word, has interviewed an author over the past three days, Carolyn Custis James, about her book, Half the Church: Recapturing God’s Global Vision for Women. One important point she made is that in most other nations, the level of poverty does not allow anyone in the family to “stay at home” full time. And the Bible must be applicable to all cultures, not just the USA and Europe. My wife and I listened to the three podcasts tonight, a total of 45 minutes. We recommend these 3 podcasts, starting with this 12-27 program: http://discovertheword.org/2013/12/27/a-conversation-about-gods-plan-for-women/

        The information about Mrs.James:
        Carolyn Custis James (M.A. in Biblical Studies) is an evangelical thinker who loves God enough to break the rules—rules of cultural convention which attempt to domesticate the gospel message of the Bible. Carolyn is president Whitby Forum, a ministry dedicated to addressing the deeper needs which confront both women and men as they endeavor to extend God’s kingdom together in a messy and complicated world.
        She is also founder and president of the Synergy Women’s Network, Inc.—a national organization for women emerging or engaged in ministry leadership. The Synergy Women’s Network sponsors annual Synergy conferences.
        Carolyn’s books have been described as “provocative,” “honest,” and “deeply moving.”
        When Life and Beliefs Collide: How Knowing God Makes a Difference (Zondervan, 2001)
        Lost Women of the Bible: The Women We Thought We Knew (Zondervan, 2005)
        Understanding Purpose (Thomas Nelson, 2006)
        The Gospel of Ruth: Loving God Enough to Break the Rules (Zondervan, 2008)
        Half the Church: Recapturing God’s Global Vision for Women (Zondervan, 2011)
        Carolyn serves as consulting editor for Zondervan’s Exegetical Commentary Series on the New Testament; a regular columnist for FullFill Magazine; contributing editor for Leadership Journal; and an advisory council member for Gifted for Leadership. She speaks regularly at church conferences, colleges and other Christian organizations both in the US and abroad and is a visiting lecturer at various theological seminaries.
        A pastor’s daughter, Carolyn grew up in Portland, Oregon. During the years between seminary and her present ministries, she had her own business as a computer software developer in Oxford, England. Her husband Frank is Provost and Professor of Historical Theology at Gordon-Conwell Theological Seminary. They live in Boxford, Massachusetts.

      • Leslie Says:

        As an “”older woman”, I have been encouraging my precious daughter-in-love for 7 years. She has always been a great keeper at home. Because of her background and lack of self esteem I encouraged her to go to college.Going to school nights and weekends she was able to get a certificate in her field. We as grandparents filled in to do whatever was necessary. Watching the 6 and 7 year old, etc,etc. Everybody has benefitted from this effort. I feel that I have fulfilled my role and my son, daughter in law and grandchildren have benefitted. I have also gained so much in helping this little family .

    • Molly Says:

      “Workers in the home” is pretty vague. I have also heard it said “keepers of the home.” But the Bible does not say this is all they can or should do, or that being a wife and mother is their highest calling. The highest calling any of us have is to have a relationship with our Creator. I would suggest that you encourage daughters to know God and seek HIS will for their lives. You don’t know what He may be calling them to! Good luck- you sound sincere in your desire to please God and live according to His direction.

    • JourneyGirl Says:

      Hi, Don,
      Thanks for interacting here and posting your thoughts and concerns. How old are your daughters, and how do they respond to your convictions about training them to be keepers at home? What are their thoughts on what God’s Word teaches about these principles of womanhood? And is your wife in full agreement with your conviction as well?

  14. JustTruth Says:

    lovemyfamily: so is Gary Power’s church just a general FIC or patriarchal FIC? Just wondered what brand it was.

    • LoveMyFamily Says:

      Hi JustTruth. A blessed 2014 to you! They participate in events with other patriarchal-type churches that are within the same region as his church. We were a part of the FIC scene for awhile, and boy do we regret much of our time in it! It is such a tight-knit community, I don’t want to be too specific. So, I apologize if I am sounding vague! We still love and care for many that we met through our FIC travels.

  15. Jean Says:

    T.W. Easton or Jen, what is the current status of DP? Is he still in home in Texas? Is he attending BCA? The children?

    • Jen Says:

      Jean, Doug was given a deadline of moving out of his house today and of moving his business out of the warehouse today. Other than that, I do not know the answers to your questions at this time.

  16. Tom Says:

    DP and his family still attend BCA. I am told he has no plans yet (or at least hasn’t announced them) in terms of what he plans on doing to provide, but he has moved with his family into a much smaller home in the San Antonio area. Looks like he is sticking around the area for a while.

  17. Stranger things Says:

    I have followed these various discussions with interest. I came from a church which was split and families hurt, devestrated,confused. In the name of patriarchy. Jen I have admired yours and others stance against these false leaders. I was deeply disappointed when you gave some positive credit to Micheal Pearl. He also is a patriarch and his teachings on “training children ” have lead to the deaths and many damaged children by people who follow is his teaching. You cannot have enough “joy” for a child who has been abused. In my view giving Pearl credit for some good cannot wipe out the evil done to children. The instructions Mrs. Pearl gives on submission for women also sets the stage for abuse. Micheal Pearl puts out-the same patriarchy non-biblical garbage the rest of DP,SB, etc. do. We need to get back to Jesus with “Love The Lord your God with all your heart, soul, and strength,and mind” Jesus also taught” Do unto others as you would have them do to you” I doubt these patriarchs would like to be treated as they treat women and children.
    I am assuming you will not publish my email. I am new to this.

    • Jen Says:

      Stranger things, welcome! (Your email always stays private.)

      You know, I think there were some good things that Doug Phillips taught. He also did a ton of harm.

      I think there are some good things that Michael Pearl teaches. He also does a ton of harm. I tried to be careful in stating what resonated with me in particular.

      I was there when both of these men began their ministries. I met Michael Pearl several times as well. With both men, I watched pride grow and grow and grow in their lives. It is interesting to me personally because when I saw what was happening to both of them, back in about 2003-4, I prayed that God would never let me become that prideful. I had my own followers, of sorts, and was very turned off by what I saw. They both became even more prideful and I will not be surprised to see Michael Pearl take a fall as well someday.

      So, I will give credit where credit is due. I learned several good things from both men. I also learned how to take a few good things and discard the rest of the trash. I fear that many people feel they need to eat the whole meal or nothing at all. But as for Debi’s book, you can throw that whole thing in the trash as far as I am concerned!

      I guess I just see so many people take Michael Pearl’s stuff and use it so differently than I ever did.

      One friend calls me a “collector.” They say that I collect a little bit from one person and another little bit from another, etc., until I come up with something I then fashion into my own methods. So, although I don’t follow any one person, and never have, I do still give credit where credit is due. I hope that makes sense.

  18. raswhiting Says:

    This is an interesting discussion of how much credit and consideration to give to DP, MP, and the like. This passage from 2 Peter 2 [NCV] may be helpful, although I do not see any simple answer here.
    10… These false teachers are bold and do anything they want. They are not afraid to speak against the angels. 11 But even the angels, who are much stronger and more powerful than false teachers, do not accuse them with insults before the Lord. 12 But these people speak against things they do not understand. They are like animals that act without thinking, animals born to be caught and killed. And, like animals, these false teachers will be destroyed. 13 They have caused many people to suffer, so they themselves will suffer. That is their pay for what they have done. They take pleasure in openly doing evil, so they are like dirty spots and stains among you. They delight in deceiving you while eating meals with you. 14 Every time they look at a woman they want her, and their desire for sin is never satisfied. They lead weak people into the trap of sin, and they have taught their hearts to be greedy. God will punish them! 15 These false teachers left the right road and lost their way, following the way Balaam went. Balaam was the son of Beor, who loved being paid for doing wrong. 16 But a donkey, which cannot talk, told Balaam he was sinning. It spoke with a man’s voice and stopped the prophet’s crazy thinking.

    17 Those false teachers are like springs without water and clouds blown by a storm. A place in the blackest darkness has been kept for them. 18 They brag with words that mean nothing. By their evil desires they lead people into the trap of sin—people who are just beginning to escape from others who live in error. 19 They promise them freedom, but they themselves are not free. They are slaves of things that will be destroyed. For people are slaves of anything that controls them. 20 They were made free from the evil in the world by knowing our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. But if they return to evil things and those things control them, then it is worse for them than it was before. 21 Yes, it would be better for them to have never known the right way than to know it and to turn away from the holy teaching that was given to them. 22 What they did is like this true saying: “A dog goes back to what it has thrown up,” and, “After a pig is washed, it goes back and rolls in the mud.”

  19. Don F. Says:

    Jen,

    Thanks for the reply. I appreciate the honest candor that you gave. We would disagree fundamentally on the matter because Scripture is not up to us to decide what we choose as instruction to obey and instruction that is optional. My concern with most of the responses and the replies to other comments the last two months is that they often focus on what the Bible would define as the exceptions. I am speaking of, however, the scriptural intent, the authorial intent, etc… What did God intend when He directed Paul to express these instructions to us.

    The clear instruction is for the older ladies ( typically, if like I Tim 5 – over 60) to teach those younger to pursue the home. Obviously, they are going to the market, buying things, probably selling things, but their daily life routine is home focused. They are not chained to the home, so to speak. They love the home and are loving their husband and children. The curse in Genesis meant that they would struggle with the strong desire to love other things rather than focus upon their husband/children. ( and the curse in Genesis meant that the men would struggle to make ends meet and would tend to rule harshly over their wife, except by the redeeming grace of Christ to overcome this result of the curse).

    I know that in America that unfortunately, the exception is too often becoming the rule these days. Many mixed up homes. But the justification to ignore the clear intent of Paul’s command in Titus 2 is what bothers me. ( And the fruit of this is the production of even more ‘exceptions’ or mixed up homes.) IN our home, often our daughters are the best read on theology and many subjects in our home, though not every subject. They are not fools for men to rule. They are wise thinking young ladies, but if they themselves apply Titus 2 as the authorial intent commands, they know that pursuit of home is to be their future assuming they marry..

    All the ridiculous extreme perversions of this that are often voiced in this thread about dads RULING their daughters who are still home, about them “serving” their fathers in some sort of perverted sense, etc are classic examples of us too often making our decisions about scripture on the exceptions not the rule, meaning the spirit and intent of the passage. ( I am not doubting that these things happen, but I am concerned that we then make our advice to normal rooted from these goofy perversions.)

    I did not ever write that it is sin for a lady to work outside the home, but I raised the question of whether it is what God intends. I believe that the authority of the Word demands that we be honest and admit the intent that Paul gives is that married ladies should be home doing the things that make for a good stable home. Not “at home” meaning they cannot ever leave, that they have to ask their husband every decision on food, purchases, etc. Prov. 31 indicates that a good husband is praising his wife for her wise decisions, actions, etc…

    My concern is that if my daughters imbibed the ideas that are scattered in this thread they would be told in this general order to – 1. Go make a career for yourself so that “if” something happens unexpectedly, you will be prepared. 2. Marry when you find the right man. 3. Have children if God grants. 4. Stay home instead of the working woman world out there, if you want to. 4. But if you want to go do a daily career somewhere else 8 hours a day, go ahead, but make sure you love your husband and children.

    This is the general aim that would be given to them from the advice in this thread. However, there is a small problem with this. It is not what God says to do. He says they are to work at home. We should stop trying to cover all the exceptions or worse still, using the exceptions to justify the hidden desire to be away from the home on an outside career. I know there are genuine exceptions – illness of husband, widow, divorce, etc, but the saddest thing is that the general advice that is on this thread would tell young ladies to do all the other stuff first and then to the degree possible, pursue the home. And further, to justify making the world our career rather than our homes, we use the economy, difficult husbands, personal fulfillment, etc… to justify our ignoring of God’s clear intent and directives. In this way we scorn Scripture’s authority and make it subjective to our personal desires.

    The root problem is that God does not let us choose His design. Sure there are these creepy men who teach bizarre ideas that should be exposed, but to teach daughters in their late teens and 20’s that the home should be their pursuit and preparation is exactly what Paul authoritatively says. The exception would be those who are most surely called to be celibate, but this is percentage wise, a very small fraction of the population of young ladies – then and today. And these God-called single ladies are also given clear patterns in the Word on how to serve the local church, other women and children, etc… Again, remember that these singles by percentage are the exceptions. But we teach most young ladies by this exception rather than the clear Scriptural intent shown in Titus 2.

    And for final clarification, I do not believe it is a sin for a young lady to get a college degree, further training, etc. The disobedience comes in when we do not then use it to honor and apply Titus 2. And sadly, but honestly, most college training from Christian schools and secular schools has no intent to focus these ladies with their newly acquired skills back to the home. And we all know that most of them will marry. so then the Word of God is scorned, dishonored, just like Paul said in Titus 2.

    Thank you Jen for the forthright reply. My concern is that we have so isolated the “ideal” away from reality, that we actually have no honest intent to obey this Scriptural “ideal” as it is clearly given by God. We decide nearly everything these days by “the exceptions”. This is wrong. My absolute deepest concern is the selectivity of what is authoritative and what is not. We belie our conviction to Scripture as our rule for life when we excuse away the inconvenient parts, whether is it because we personally don’t care for the instruction or whether we see wicked men like DP, etc and thus excuse our dismissal of clear authoritative intent by God.

    Most of all thanks for being honest and clarifying your position. That helps us honestly assess this thread in our home with our daughters and sons. ( we do this together often) for we want only to follow the Word of God in spirit and yet also in clear obedience because of the marvelous grace given to us by Christ at Calvary, never to earn it.

    Have a good New Year’s Day,

    Don

    • stillhealing Says:

      Hi Don, I know your reply is directed at Jen but something has been on my mind this morning. The point of this blog is to expose the shady dealings of Doug Phillips, Vision Forum, and hence Patriarchy and it`s abuses. The focus of the discussion in the comments is naturally going to be the abuses, perversions, twistings, and the “less than ideal”.

      I especially love passages such as Titus 2 because the culture and sometimes my own extended family see my decision to give up a career as a waste of my intelligence. But really, the only difference between me and an accountant/nurse/chef/teacher is that I am paid with hugs and kisses 🙂

    • oneh20 Says:

      “…assuming they marry.” Al Mohler spoke to this a year or two ago. He noted the problem that too many Christian men are NOT marrying. They are waiting till who knows when… I’m all for marriage (!), but by and large, its not something you can rely on as a woman anymore. Also, marriages are generally taking place at later ages – the average Christian woman does not come from circles where she is taught to stay at home and work for her dad. Even if she believed she should do so, the average Christian dad will tell her, “You need to finish college, get out there and learn to take care of yourself.” These things are not so much “exceptions” anymore. My daughter has in mind a career she would like. I’m all for her pursuing it. Will it be the only thing she pursues? No. We’ve had the discussion many times about priorities. If she gets married, he’s the priority after God, if she has children, she stays home – but she loves children and wild horses could never keep her away from any children she may have anyway.

      I used to be a member of the church where MacArthur preaches. Heavy emphasis on marriage and women staying at home and that’s great. However, the single population there is HUGE and some of these singles have been single for decades. The women have GOT to take care of themselves. Who else is going to do it? The church? 🙂

      Speaking of such – then there is the single mother. That’s NOT unexceptional anymore. Its just not. So what do you do if her family won’t step in? Are the rules different for her or do you personally make sure she can stay at home with her children? Just how much do you believe this? Do you believe it enough to see that you or your church does all they can to handle her basic bills so she can do this? Seven years or so ago I wrote Voddie Bauchum about this – SILENCE. This is when he was far more accessible. I do know that whatever one *really* believes will show up in their pocketbooks/wallets.

    • GB Says:

      I like Don F. post

    • Jen Says:

      Don, thank you for your feedback. I want to follow Scripture in all that I do, and I believe that most everyone here does, too. You brought up some good areas for further discussion here.

      First, you speak of Paul’s command in Titus 2. Let us first look at exactly what that command is: in this particular case, that the older women are to “admonish” the younger women in these areas. It is interesting to me that this is not a direct command to the younger women, but to the older women. So what exactly does “admonish” mean? I always go back to the Greek, which is “sóphronizó,” and most literally means to restore her to her senses in moderation. So Paul is actually telling Titus to teach the older women in the church to be the ones to speak into the younger women’s lives and bring them back to moderation in these areas when necessary. It appears that it is fully assumed that young married women will naturally stay home and raise their children and take care of their home and love their husband, and if they get caught up in going away from these duties, that it is the older women in the church who are responsible for bringing them back to their senses.

      I find it interesting that it is NOT the father’s responsibility, nor the husband’s responsibility, nor even the elders’ responsibility, but it is the older women’s responsibility to relate to these younger women — because they have been there!

      At BCA, Titus 2 was emphasized to the complete exclusion of Proverbs 31, so I would say that to gain a fuller picture, we must add Proverbs 31 to this list as well.

      Now, I still do not see a clear command to these young women that they are to stay home, but at that same time, it is more than obvious that this is IDEAL. Science, statistics, even life experience all bear this out. God has put the desire to be a mom inside (nearly) every young girl. Some women push that aside, but it is still built into us.

      However, statistically speaking, 50% of all Christians still get divorced. Deaths still happen. Men sometimes lose their jobs, or get injured or sick. Or all kinds of exceptions. And even though the exceptions never make the rule, reality is that these are really not exceptions in today’s age. Are we really going to sit here and judge 50% of Christian families who cannot afford full-time stay-at-home moms for one reason or another? If we make this a SIN issue, then 50% of Christians have no other option than to live in sin. You say that you do not call it “sin,” but if you call this a command from Paul, then it is a “sin” issue. This is a wisdom issue. Yes, it is absolutely ideal for moms to stay home and raise their kids. If they don’t, there are natural consequences, and we all know them all too well. But it is still NOT a “sin” issue.

      Let me address your summary of the comments here regarding this issue. Let me intersperse my thoughts with your list.

      Don: 1. Go make a career for yourself so that “if” something happens unexpectedly, you will be prepared.

      Jen: 1. Before marriage, be well educated and endeavor to be prepared for life’s unexpected happenings. This could take the form of establishing a business at home, or learning a skill that can be taught to others, or be a licensed beautician, or get a college degree. The options here are endless, but a wise woman will have some expertise in case she needs to use it.

      Don: 2. Marry when you find the right man.

      Jen: Marry when you find the right godly man.

      Don: 3. Have children if God grants.

      Jen: Trust God for children, but use wisdom in this area as well.

      Don: 4. Stay home instead of the working woman world out there, if you want to.

      Jen: Stay home and raise your children if at all possible. Don’t feel guilty if it is not possible.

      Don: 5. But if you want to go do a daily career somewhere else 8 hours a day, go ahead, but make sure you love your husband and children.

      Jen: Before children come along, or after they are grown, women are free to work outside the home, if they want to, but home duties are still necessary. This should be decided between husband and wife.

      For the 50% who will end up single, and probably single moms, if the church or family can’t or won’t help you, do NOT feel guilty for working. Survival comes first.

      • Turkey Says:

        Jen and Don– I’ve been attempting to think about one point Don emphasized, from a little different angle.  I’m trying not to look at anecdotal experiences and exceptions in this.
            5 times in Don’s comments, he suggests young women pursuing the home as a career. I think this fails to emphasize what the Bible emphasizes. And emphasizes what it does not (including the very idea of “career”)  just as Phillips and Co. have done. 
             In the Bible, “pursuit” is a very strong concept. Mostly, it’s something enemies do– closely tied to persecution.  Also, it’s commanded that believers pursue, primarily, the kingdom of God and His righteousness, and secondarily, virtuous character (as in the fruit of the Spirit). For example: hospitality, love, the prize of our high calling, what is good, godliness, faith, perseverance, and gentleness. (Scriptures for all upon request.)
             Let’s look at 2 passages. 
        Peter asks wives to adorn themselves with “the hidden man of the heart, in the incorruptible thing of the meek and quiet spirit, which is, before God, of great price” (I Pet 3:4)  
        Internal beauty– invaluable! 
        7 verses later, he exhorts all the brethren, “Let him turn aside from evil, and do good, let him seek peace and pursue it;” 
        Peace– worth pursuing!
        Paul also enjoins the pursuit of peace. “So, then, the things of peace may we pursue, and the things of building up one another; (Rom 14:19)
        So it is true that Paul enjoins younger women to learn house-keeping, and younger widows to practice house-ruling, but he enjoins all women (and children and men) to PURSUE house-building!  So a woman’s place is in the home. But not her just little personal domain–God’s home! Emphasis on the right syllable.

    • Scott Says:

      Don I would have to challenge your assumption with respect to those that have not married being an “exception” . Statistically more than 60% of all people in the United States over the age of majority are in fact SINGLE. Divorce and death of a spouse contribute , but the fact is the church has a huge percentage of folks that have not married for whatever reason. Many of the young women that are coming out of patriarchal families are clearly struggling to find husbands. Honestly I would marry a unbeliever or maybe even a lesbian or Mormon before some of women that have contacted me on a popular christian dating site. In the last year I have been asked really weird stuff by some of these ladies. For example : do your parents have a proper sex life ( whatever that means, I’m not asking the folks anyway. ) Do you hold to the 1689 Westminster baptist confession ( never heard of it), do you read the 1611 KJV, do you wear a suit to church, are you in an accountability group, are you submitted to a local pastor, do you dance or go to movies, when is the last time you watched porn or bought it, and my personal favorite DO you MASTURBATE ? That question actually came in the same sentence where she asked me about tithing. I felt like I was being interrogated by the naive christian version of DR. Ruth Westheimer.

      • Jen Says:

        Scott, I didn’t know VF had its own dating site!

        • Scott Says:

          LOL, well it was actually Christian Mingle but there are plenty of very conservative, ultra – legalistic women there. Although my friend Bren says they guys can be just as bad. She talked with a guy that believes any form of recorded music is sinful.

      • DaMom Says:

        @Scott….Yikes! I think you’re right to stay away from these type of girls!

        I think you have a better chance with either a good moral unsaved girl and lead her to a right understanding of salvation before marriage, a Christian girl that has been “unchurched” for a while, or a Christian girl who wonders what cave you’ve been living in by your mentioning patriarchy. grin….jk.

        My oldest looked at Christian mingle and was turned off by it.

        I would’ve never thought to ask those questions from my husband 32 yrs ago. I was more interested in the chemistry between us than that of his parents. eww.

    • Keith Blankenship Says:

      Don: What about having a wife who is well-educated so that she is able to have good conversations with her husband? This was one of the things that attracted me to my wife.

      • Jen Says:

        Keith, I don’t think Don is opposed to women being educated, but many in the patriarchy movement are. That is an excellent point. Some men may prefer the dumb blond type, but many appreciate someone who can carry on an intelligent conversation as well.

        • DesiringToDiscern Says:

          Funny, 😀 we have two guys in our area who are married to airheads (sweet ladies but not ALL THERE) and delighted to be the MAN of the house. Neither are DP patriarchy types….far from it.
          Yet I get frequent compliments on how well my children can carry on intelligent conversations with people of many backgrounds, ages and nationalities….as opposed to the average public school-er who is so very unaware of real life and seemingly unable to *socialize* outside of the very unnatural *day jail* aka pub. school. Even that type of social life is contrived due to peer pressure and bullying. Home educated does not mean perfect but the other options are so sad. BTW, not all home-schoolers are doing so for their beliefs. Some just want their children to GET an education. Many public schoolers cannot adequately read or write (some cannot even tell time on an analog clock) after 13 years ! Why don’t people question those facts ?

  20. JustTruth Says:

    lovemyfamily:
    Thanks! A happy year to you as well.

  21. Tom Says:

    A couple of interesting links to read from relatives of Geoff Botkin and Michael Pearl:

    * Katie Botkin, niece of Geoff Botkin and cousin to Anna Sophia and Elizabeth, with an analysis on their recent book: http://kbotkin.com/2012/01/05/it-might-be-a-little-bit-complicated/

    * Katie Botkin again on how Geoff exaggerates his “Marxist” upbringing: http://www.datalounge.com/cgi-bin/iowa/ajax.html?t=12074020#page:showThread,12074020

    * Michael Bailey, nephew of Michael Pearl with an extended blog post on his uncle’s errors and what a tyrant he was to Michael and his sisters when their single mother moved to be near her brother Michael Pearl to get help raising her children: http://www.examiner.com/article/michael-pearl-s-nephew-speaks-out-on-god-beatings-and-to-train-up-a-child

    • Jen Says:

      Tom, I read the link about Michael Pearl. Very odd to me. What he experienced at home was nothing like what I remember Michael Pearl teaching, and then he ends up being able to think for himself. I’m not sure that his story says much about Michael Pearl at all, except for the small anecdote about peeing out the window (I disagree with how that was handled, BTW). Thanks for sharing the link though!

      • Sarah Says:

        Jen go check out Peter Bradrick’s Facebook. Bob Renus recent comment referring to BCa’s statement they released today.

        • Sarah Says:

          It’s under Jordons article he posted on Peters page.

        • Just a shadow Says:

          Why would they release this now? What is the purpose of this non-statement?

        • oneh20 Says:

          Non statement, indeed!

        • Leslie Says:

          Agree. A non statement!

        • Turkey Says:

          First significant update to BCA website in nearly 6 years!
          And in the “about” section there are still several “letters” from ’06 defending the sinful, deceitful former elder against the “defamatory attacks” of a certain discommunicated Jen….

        • Jen Says:

          Thanks, all. I just saw it, too. The whole thing stinks to high heaven.

        • zooey111Zooey Says:

          Well. They certainly needed a lot of words to say nothing, didn’t they?

        • Teresa N. Says:

          BCA is acting like a dog who just went the bathroom. After dogs go to the bathroom they try to cover-up the stink with dirt or other junk. I smell a stinky cover-up, because it still smells.

          Probably not a good analogy but this is all that came to my head.

        • MomT Says:

          What I would like to know is why the elders did not inform the board of VF in Feb. about DP’s “confession and repentance” and how they were handling the situation. SB said in his recent letter that he was not made aware of DP’s “infidelities” until Sept 2013. Something is not adding up here. Sounds like someone is lying or some elders have been negligent in their handling of this situation. OR there’s a whole lot of covering up going on. O what a tangled web we weave…..

        • Donna Says:

          Well, even the fact that DP’s name was still on the BCA website as Elder until AFTER the “confession” on 10/30, when people (like us) started demanding to know WHY he was still an elder there. Yes, they were clearly being purposely deceitful. It would not be for the purpose of “restoration and unity” (let’s keep it quiet while we work on restoration) because he was no longer an elder. So why leave his name up as if he WAS still an elder? To deceive. The only question is WHY. To keep the money flowing? To keep the followers following for as long as possible? To keep VFM, VFI, and all the “branches” of their businestry going? For the family (and Doug) to be able to stay in the lavish 6000 sq ft home that was financed by their followers? To save face for Brown, Botkin, etc., and the movement as a whole? Because let’s face it, there’s a LOT of egg on their faces right now… aside from those don’t who don’t research or have any idea what all has transpired. They’re attempting to do serious damage control at this point. And they’re using the theme of “unity” an awful to try to make that happen.

        • oneh20 Says:

          I really don’t think it was to deceive…. That web site looked like it had been abandoned for ages. The sermons were old, I think the elders were people not there any longer and so forth. Likely scenario is that they suddenly got a ton of web traffic, didn’t realize how significant a site it, and realized they had to update. Its a pathetic update, but I don’t think leaving DP there was any more than social media laziness.

        • Renewal Notice Says:

          visionforum.org is still listed on BCA’s links page too. So is Persecution Project, which is owned by the evil twin Brad Phillips.

        • just a shadow Says:

          I just now got an email from Vision Forum (dated today) announcing pre-order for Kirk Cameron’s new movie “Unstoppable”. So apparently VF is still in business & selling stuff. And apparently still on good terms with Kirk Cameron.

        • Renewal Notice Says:

          Oops! I just realized I shouldn’t have called Brad Phillips the evil twin. That would be like saying that Doug Phillips is a good man and his brother is the evil one in the family. They’re both evil. Just thought I’d better clear that up.

      • Sarah Says:

        @ Just a Shadow. I’m send Kirk Cameron a message to me him aware. It’s possible he doesn’t even know they are selling his dvd. I’m sure he has people that look after all that stuff. I’m going to give him the benefit of the doubt.

        • just a shadow Says:

          Well, I want to give him (KC) the benefit of doubt too, but it’s not like DP has these stacked (leftover) in his garage. This is a pre-order, so he’s planning to get the product to people somehow. How he would do that with out Cameron’s consent, I don’t know.

          I also got a VF email about 2 days ago with Kirk’s picture on it selling the Geneva Bible.

          And I’ve gotten a couple of emails from other organizations selling the Geneva Bible for VF ( Old school house mag I think. I’ll have to look back through my emails.)

          So, DP has clearly found a way to continue to sell stuff through third parties who most likely have no knowledge of his downfall.

          I knew he wasn’t down for the count. Which is why his mournful “broken” act (as reported on here by the teenage Steven B.) was just that – an act. He’s going to need willing workers ( cheap or free) to continue his business, and the act on the last day went a long way to aid that.

        • Brandon G Says:

          JAS,

          More than likely VF is getting the movie from a distributor, not KC’s organization directly. If that is the case, then KC can’t stop who sells the video.

        • just a shadow Says:

          Also the bottom of the email I got today still lists the Blanco Rd. address.

        • DesiringToDiscern Says:

          at the bottom of the email…..
          © 2014 The Vision Forum, Inc.,
          4719 Blanco Road, San Antonio, Texas 78212. All Rights Reserved.
          Are emails copyrighted????
          2014 !!
          Just think…NO MORE minions to pay ! 😦

        • Maxwell Says:

          Is it possible that this was a pre-programmed/canned email that was scheduled up in advance and someone forgot to cancel?

        • Jen Says:

          Maxwell, most likely VF contracted with many businesses to promote their products/business/ministries, often a year or so in advance. Doug will probably honor those contracts, especially since he earns a percentage for doing so. Residual income is what he will be living on until he can get back on his feet. BlueBehemoth.com seems to be designed for a tremendous amount of residual income as well. And Jonathan Park, of course. 🙂

  22. Robert Gifford Speaks Out « Scarlet Letters Says:

    […] match the filters you selected.”) I didn’t find anything about the closing, but I did find this encouraging report by T. W. Eston about Robert Gifford, the pastor whom Doug Phillips has repeatedly referred to as […]

  23. Renewal Notice Says:

    Vision Forum is still in business? So the “inventory clearance” wasn’t a going out of business sale after all? I don’t get it. I thought Doug Phillips let everyone go. Well the visionforum.com web site is still up after all. Maybe Doug will just press his family into service and they’re carry on running it from their new home. There can be advantages to having so many children, and the child labor laws don’t apply when it’s your own kids.

    I saw something about Heritage Defense in the online VF catalog. The sleeze factor is so high with this thing. Just check out who all endorses it. Kevin Swanson, R.C. Sproul Jr. Someone please explain this to me.

    Isn’t Don Hart just another scumbag attorney associate of Doug Phillips? Isn’t he just another ecclesiastical thug that runs one of the other cults in BCA the community?

    • Maxwell Says:

      Do all Texas Attorneys take a class in how to speak out of the right side of their mouths?

    • Tinuviel Says:

      Not defending DP or VF, but for the record many large-scale emails are copyrighted. I just checked my inbox and found that most of the emails I get from businesses (in this case, Institute for Excellence in Writing, CVS Pharmacy, Giant Food, Barnes and Noble) are copyrighted. I’m guessing it’s a fairly common practice.

    • UMMM..... Says:

      Thank you for posting this great link about Heritage Defense. I wouldn’t have known about it otherwise. I am so glad to see that these men are willing to stand for the freedom of christians. My family is so grateful to the Lord for how God has used them! We and our grown children are NON-legalistic (yet never perfect, pre-glorification) and God used a lot of their teaching to draw then to Himself and we continue on in our walks and are still learning, which is why I visit this site, because I want to understand and be teachable.

  24. Sarah Says:

    When I saw that Doug stayed in SA and was still
    at BCA I knew he wasn’t down for the count.

    • just a shadow Says:

      Yes. I knew the same thing. Apparently there are still enough people here locally who he feels will stay loyal to him & may even pitch in their kids to help pack shipping boxes.

      My prediction: In a few months to a year, Vision Forum will burst on the scene again with Joshua at the helm and maybe a couple of his friends. The new VF will have a hipper, cooler vibe. And people will follow again b/c the line of reasoning will be, “Well, we can’t blame the son for the father’s sins!” There will be touching stories released of the family overcoming this hurdle. Their will be whole new books to write on how to overcome, forgive, and move on. Those who (rightfully so) feel heartbroken for his family will flock to support the son in his new heroic role as overcomer. DP won’t be *too* visible, but it will be DP running everything behind the scenes.

      Yep. That’s my prediction.

    • Corrine Says:

      Where do you see that ?

  25. DesiringToDiscern Says:

    HEY, BOERNE C.A. …how ya gonna explain the LIE that this was predicated upon ??? You know, the one where DP LIED about Pastor Gifford??
    AND what ya gonna do about Jennif.G ?
    AND why is VF aka DP still using the VFM (which is closed) address ? and trying to drag Kirk C. down the sewer with him? (just thoughts)

    • Sarah Says:

      BCA needs shut down. Close the doors!

      • just a shadow Says:

        Plus BCA *needs* DP and he knows it. At least one of the current elders has absolutely zero business managing a church – no biblical training of any kind, no particular gifting for preaching etc.

        They are probably begging DP to come back and speak, just to spare them from another mind numbingly boring “sermon”. Either that or they are going to have to turn on the faucet and listen to it dripping for entertainment.

        • Sarah Says:

          I should note the Jonathon Park website is still humming along.

        • DesiringToDiscern Says:

          Sarah…so is the blue B. site. WOW… no tangible product, no minions needed…and still have DP *sermons* for download ! Yeah, he’s quiet…. NOT!

        • just a shadow Says:

          Just a humble foot soldier!

        • Walking in Freedom Says:

          Let’s brainstorm ideas on how we can get Jen’s blog out there to more of the unsuspecting public!

        • just a shadow Says:

          There is zero % chance that he has repented if he is still selling sermons that were recorded during his years of infidelity. Zero % chance.

        • just a shadow Says:

          Because by continuing to sell sermons he is still holding himself out as a teacher with in the body of Christ – something he is now Biblically disqualified from doing. And he knows it.

          If anyone needed evidence that he is NOT repentant – there it is.

  26. just a shadow Says:

    There is no way under heaven that he is repentant if he is still selling sermons that were recorded during the years of his infidelity.

    No way in heaven.

  27. Don F. Says:

    Jen (and the others who have commented),

    First, thanks for the replies. Whether I agree or not, it allows me to be challenged to try and be as sure as possible that what I say I believe, I really believe genuinely and based upon something concrete, not personal preferences or false convictions.

    One of the fellows commenting mentioned a well-educated wife so that good conversation can occur. Certainly this is right to want good conversation, but truthfully, it does not take college/outside career to do that. A lady reading voraciously, building a thinking mind, drinking in lots of Scripture – all this and interaction with others will produce this and so career per se is not necessary to be “well-educated”.

    As to another brother speaking about the amount of single folks – unmarried – that may be true. But that does not change what God has defined clearly in his Scriptures. And he should not necessarily be too concerned by all those questions he is receiving – after all, many a lady has been duped by a deceitful man and if these gals view marriage as permanent, they want to know what he is really like, so like good Bereans, they ask lots of pointed direct questions.
    Jen, in your discussions you emphasize the many that are single, etc. for various reasons. So let me try in a different way to summarize my comments.

    If we are to ever obey the intent of the Scriptures regarding the beauty of the Christian home and the invaluable worth of the Christian homemaker as a life calling, then sooner or later we, as those who profess Christ, are going to have to stop providing cover for the excuses to all those young gals who are not married, are in their teens or 20’s, by never seriously exhorting them to consider from the beginning that the Christian home is worth pursuing as a homemaker as the total calling of your life. In other words, as Proverbs says, “where there no vision, the people perish”. So, in the context of the home today in America, the “homemaker” model which Scripture makes clear is to be their pursuit – this pursuit has all but perished; it is drowned out literally by all the ‘options’ that a gal has these days. The vision is trampled underfoot and so the home in America perishes – the present evidence is obvious.

    Again, even here in this thread, an unmarried single gal who is in her teens would likely come away thinking that most men who want a wife as a homemaker full-time, from the inception of marriage must be DP perverts, Patriarch Power Machines or something equally bad or worse. To the contrary, where is the ‘vision’ casting that the older Christian ladies of our day should be setting before the young ladies who are not yet married that the home IS the most worthy pursuit she can ever attain? Nothing in the society can compare and certainly will not bear the eternal fruit that the noble pursuit of the Christian home as a full-time vocation will produce. This strong voice of older women is almost non-existent, so we must conclude that even the older women have largely been duped by the glorious “career” promises. We defend our “fallback” positions because we do not believe God meant what He said in Hebrews 11:5-6. We believe that even though He said something, He will not really fulfill it or meet that need, so we, like Abraham refuse to believe His Word, so we devise alternate methods that are supposedly harmless. But alas, like Abraham’s manipulation with the birth of Ishmael, the end result is chaos. Exactly what we have today in many homes, because we do not believe the “ideal” is authoritative.

    I know this blog is dedicated as a response to the abuse that Jen and your family experienced from BCA/ DP, but the obvious theme that dominates as the undercurrent is that the women had better go care for themselves because the model in Scripture simply does not work anymore, even though it is “ideal”.

    Y’all can argue against this last sentence that I wrote, but the fact is that the undercurrent in the collection of the posts is exactly what I have stated. And so, my daughters go away thinking that their dad and mom have deceived them about what God meant in the Scriptures clearly stated not only in Titus 2, but in spirit and intent in many passages as it relates to marriage and being a homemaker.

    We continue to provide excuses for all those young ladies to do other things first, make other pursuits their first priorities and so by the time that they get to marry, their vision for such a biblical home has been lost or seriously dimmed.
    My criticism Jen is simply that you continue to try and defend all the ladies who are not presently in the home for various reasons – some very legitimate such as divorce, husband disability, etc. and some not so legitimate. We keep saying that to honor the command of Scripture is the ideal, but not sin to ignore it. James tells us that ” to him who knows what to do and doeth it not, it is sin.” We cannot choose what we will obey in the Word and what we will not obey. Christians who are truly seeking Christ are not given this option.

    If we honored the Word of God as clearly written in word and intent, we would know what to teach our children about the Christian home, what the young men need to do in terms of becoming responsible young men and the young ladies in becoming responsible young ladies. The young men would pursue marriage, not to control the woman, but out of the command of God that it is not good for him to be alone – he needs the discipline of work for her and care for her ( and later children) to make him a true man of God. The young ladies would truly long for Christ-like homes, well before they marry and would be making preparation for these homes so that they would be women of God ( that may include college or other training venues, but they ought to lead her back home, not out making a career life.) Again, this is not the perverse stuff that VF promoted, but just good basic biblical instruction that is for us all who seek Christ.

    Finally, for the single mother who was dumped by her husband or left due to his folly – you do have a difficult road to go and yet God is faithful and His Word will not be mocked. He will not abandon those who cling to Christ. You may well have to find a job, a “career” and in cases such as this, you should not feel that you are in sin or disobedience. In that case, you are trying to meet the needs of your children because you husband did not (he left) or could not (died) – though according to the Apostle Paul in I Timothy 5, if she is under 60, she should for sure remarry. And of course there will be other cases that are similar in reality, such as a wife whose husband wants her to work outside the home, even though she does not. He will not relent and so you have no real choice. So, you make the best of it without condemnation from God or others. You are seeking to honor the Lord and your husband so ‘off to work you go’. But in each of these cases, these mothers ought to still encourage their daughters that God’s Word is right about the home as the first pursuit and that they still ought to try and truly obey the spirit of the Word in their own lives, even though they were not able to see it fulfilled in the home in which they were reared. A mother who has been through these difficult trenches and yet still stands to speak so that the Word of God is not dishonored in conveying these timeless truths to her children is indeed a godly woman of the Lord.

    Jen, regardless of disagreement – thank you for the time to comment and hopefully to leave us all some things to muse over, pray about and work through. I am saddened about all the abuses that have evidently occurred at BCA, VF, etc. But God is not mocked and justice will come – it may not here, but it will Some Day. In the meantime, let us try to find the balance of honoring the Word of God, never rationalizing it away and trust Him that He will “honor those who honor Him.” ( I Samuel 2:30) For this has been proven true time and time again throughout church history. The Gospel of Jesus Christ always wins – including sanctifying us into the likeness of our dear Saviour. For that I long for in my own life, that of my dear wife and my dear children, indeed all who genuinely seek Christ with their whole heart.

    I will try to let the subject alone for a while.

    Have a good day,
    Don F.

    • UMMM..... Says:

      Thank you, Don F.
      I agree with you. It isn’t easy for us ladies who desire to stay home and serve their family in a godly way. Society hates it, satan hates it, and most christians of today hate it. Jesus walked this earth as a servant. My husband is a servant (I am blessed). All christians are servants. My mom was a career woman, she was never home. It was so damaging. I left a career earning good $ and have never looked back. Praise be to God. I am grateful for the teachers of the Word who are not afraid to preach it! I started in the workforce because i thought I had to. I thought I didn’t have a choice. That is what feminism taught me. Christ teaches me now!

      • Scott Says:

        Most Christians today hate women staying home to be full time homemakers ? What ever gave you that idea ? One of the businesses I operate is a service company that runs thousands of service calls. Probably 80% of our calls are during the day when a stay home mom is there to let us in and take care of business.

        Your post just further proves that you have developed this false idea that everyone is against your chosen lifestyle. You also have that typical “home schooling elitist ” attitude that is immediately identifiable. ( No you don’t have to homeschool to have it.)

        Believe me most Americans don’t hate homemakers or the blessings they bring to the community. There are tons of homemakers that aren’t even born again that are working very hard in the home everyday for their families. We deal with them everyday and would have to run a bunch of additional night shifts if all service calls had to be made after normal office hours. We run till 9pm most days as it is. I would hate to expand that till 11pm. God bless homemakers. The world wouldn’t function without them.

        • Jen Says:

          Scott, thanks for a refreshing perspective on reality!

        • DaMom Says:

          I don’t know what rock Umm has been living under, but I’ve had *many* women say they would like to be in my place as a SAHM, from non-Christians and Christian’s alike. When I’m asked what my job is, I will whimisically say, a “domestic goddess” or “domestic engineer” or “my husband works and I work at spending his money”. grin I do get the raised eyebrows when I tell them that I’ve been a SAHM for over 25 yrs., but I’m sure it’s due to the amount of time that I’ve had that ability to do so in this day and age.

        • DesiringToDiscern Says:

          Scott,
          I wish that it were so but I know too of many empty neighborhoods to really believe that. I do know that job-outside-of-the-home-women take the day off to meet with service guys for repairs etc. I know of many children who are in the popular after-school programs (aka babysitting) offered by the schools. I also know of one young mom who was not home-schooled but wanted to stay home and be there for her family. Her mother and grandmother have put intense pressure on her NOT to do that. She has a very supportive husband though and has stood her ground. The worse critique of SAHMs that I have seen (sneers, comments, and offense) has come from other women who work. They can be really mean. Been there.

        • UMMM..... Says:

          Scott & DA Mom,
          Thank you for sharing that your experience is: that many people are “for” stay at home moms. That was encouraging for me to hear. I am glad that is your experience. As far as the homeschooling elitist remark, I have been a single mother, would have been homeless if I didn’t have family to take us in for a season. Nothing elitist about me. Just grateful. I became saved and remarried. First husband died, drugs. Please, people, can we be a little more loving with how we respond to people we have never even met? And, no, I don’t live under a rock.

        • Jen Says:

          UMMM, so glad to know that you are human like the rest of us! Thanks for sharing that with us. It softens my heart toward you a whole lot!

        • Keith Blankenship Says:

          Typical homeschooling elitist? I think you are being a little hard on her. Also, there are a lot of people who hate homeschooling and homeschoolers.

        • Donna Says:

          Oh boy, isn’t that the truth! There’s a reason that the HSLDA exists….

    • Jen Says:

      Don, I appreciate the feedback. Thanks for your thoughts on the subject. I cannot speak for everyone who comments here, as we each have our own mind (thankfully!), but as for me, I would pretty much agree with you that we should encourage young women to marry and raise godly families at home. So, where are all the godly young men to make that a reality? Is that an issue here?

      Let’s get real. I’m divorced, and not only do I not find any godly men for me to marry, I also have to help repair all the damage done to my children not only by Doug Phillips, but also by their father. That tremendous amount of damage, both done by “godly” men, led to my daughter having a baby out-of-wedlock. Her responsibility, ultimately, but there are many factors that led to this lifestyle. I was able to raise my grandson for the first three years of his life, but then we all had the rug pulled out from under us unexpectedly and I haven’t even seen him, or my youngest, severely-disabled daughter in months now. I struggle to keep food on the table because I am trying to help my adult children recover from so much damage in life.

      So, as much as I would like to encourage my daughter to marry a godly man and stay home with her son, she cannot separate Doug Phillips from Christianity at this point in her life and so she rejects it all. Do I encourage her to marry an unbeliever just so she can stay home with her son? Or do I wait until she is ready to love God again, which may not be until her son is fully grown? I certainly raised her to prepare for marriage and staying at home, and deep down, I know that’s what she desires, but that is not reality. And since I don’t see people beating down my doors to help, and I have yet to meet any godly men my age, what is your biblical advice for me? I’m sorry, but real life is reality.

      • DesiringToDiscern Says:

        Jen,
        I agree with the wreckage dilemma you are dealing with being huge. I have no pat answers for it…but this I know…My God is faithful, His Word does not return void/empty. …and Jesus loves us ! As far as remarrying…. the older guys seem to be going for the younger gals…with all sorts of rationalizing to justify it. Whilst the conservative churches, for the most part, look at the single mom with disdain and mistrust. No more invites to couple/family events from the super patriach-ers. (sigh) Lots to deal with on the mama *plate*. (hugs)

        • Jen Says:

          Thanks, D2D. 🙂 (That was the light version. Didn’t want to overwhelm people with reality!)

        • oneh20 Says:

          That’s exactly right. No invitations to dinner and family time with others, etc. Watching all these church gatherings on facebook for Christmas and New Years while sitting at home. People inviting the children over but not the mom. This is not a pity party. These are just facts and one learns to deal with them after a few tears and eventually a sense of humor and finally with a feeling of, “God, I choose to believe Your Word is true no matter what I see around me and if its just You and me – that’s more than I deserve anyway.”

        • oneh20 Says:

          Oh, I need to clarify something… The small local Body that has blessed our socks off is an NCFIC patriarchal type. 🙂

      • Scott Says:

        Not true ! I would marry you in a heartbeat. You would just have to forget the stay home mom thing and relocate to Wake Forest North Carolina for your new call in radio show : UNMasked, exposing the wannabe patriarchs during the evening drive hours everyday here on the FM dial and SirusXM. Feel free to drop in and visit our gift shop ( check out our full line of fallen patriarch ACTION dolls) or watch a broadcast in process. We are located right here in Wake Forest two doors down from the Pentagon of the Patriarchs.

        Just think we could sell one of my businesses off and use the cash to rent some office space down the street from Scotty, hire a couple of Hank Hanagraaff style investigators and buy up a bunch of radio time. Next thing you know we are selling family friendly toys and claiming WE found a dinosaur.

        Two things I’m firm on, NO funny costumes and regular picketing of all NCFIC events.

        • DesiringToDiscern Says:

          Scott,
          Hanagraaff…really? Lol… that fella is goofy….to put it nicely.

        • Jen Says:

          Oh, Scott, it sounds like a dream come true! 😉 But I would have to ask at least one qualifying question first: Are you a godly man? 🙂 (I know you LOVE being drilled on Christian Mingle, so I didn’t want you to feel left out of that!)

          As for the costumes, I do look really good in a Civil War ball gown …

      • oneh20 Says:

        I’d love to go out and just marry…. Anyway, isn’t the man supposed to lead? And my child is astute – learning the “one another” passages and so forth and watching it ignored in the local Body. Do I say that we stay faithful to Scripture regardless of what others do or don’t do? Of course. But the duplicity is duly noted while eating barely able to be bought food from the dollar store. There was a period where the people who took interest and care were all unbelievers… Sad testimony. God IS faithful – in spite of a church that often says one thing an does another. All that said, we have finally experienced love from a very small local Body that I could never have dreamed of. But I would advise silence on issues if one’s only advice is, “Go in peace, be warm and be filled.” See James 2 beginning with verse 14. God bless.

    • Molly Says:

      Frankly, Don, it sounds like you already have your mind made up. And I sense that you may have come here under the guise of asking us what we think, just so that you could gently admonish us for our “unscriptural” viewpoint. I apologize if I have misjudged you, but a big part of me is wondering why you asked for opinions at all, if you already have such a strong belief about what God’s will is for every woman on the planet.

    • GB Says:

      Thanks Don F.

  28. DesiringToDiscern Says:

    Don F,
    That was so well written ! Thank you! I come from a long line of home-keepers. I remember too that the houses which were empty during the day are the ones where kids would hang out and things that were um er…not good. I am so thankful for the legacy with which I have been blessed. ..and YES, trusting God for provision is key to it all, married or single. The *church* at large has mostly failed to provide for the abandoned and widowed. Years ago Larry Burkett addressed this in his books. So did Ronald Reagan…and even GOD 😉 Even with failure of men, we can and should trust our loving heavenly Father. HE is faithful !

  29. so confused Says:

    Ok…I know this comment is not directly related to what’s going on here..but I had something happen today & I’m a little flabbergasted!! I had ordered a Bill Potter mp3 from Vision Forum during the liquidation (I know, don’t judge me , my son really wanted it & was good price!)…..anyway….it just came & it’s not what labeled!!! It’s in the correct case with the correct label but it’s not an mp3, it’s a cd of Doug Phillips!!! You can’t tell me that’s an honest mistake!!! And I don’t know why I’m surprised but I am!! How deceitful!!

    • Jen Says:

      So confused, yes, I can understand your confusion. How frustrating indeed! I’m sorry to laugh at your misfortune, but I think that’s about all we can do at this point!

    • JPGR Says:

      it’s a cd of Doug Phillips!!!”

      A surreptitiously unloaded CD of Doug. Wow, that is really a sick, sick joke that they played on you…….

  30. oneh20 Says:

    Oh yes, “God will take care of you while we obey the full intent of scripture.” WE are the Body. No more needs to be said.

  31. Scott Says:

    DesiringTO Desern, well it probably varies by the area but here in the Washington DC metro area I deal with tons of stay home homes. Perhaps it’s because we are a higher end company that targets the upper end incomes but it’s the norm with my customer base. I think for many families it comes down to financial ability to survive on one income. The average home we are in is around 800k so obviously there is an above average income. When a wife can stay home with her baby, most will jump at the chance. I even see tons of liberals doing it.

  32. Don F. Says:

    Jen and others,

    I cannot say that I understand your difficulties. That would be hypocritical, as I have not walked in your shoes. And in your circumstances, you are one of those that I spoke of that was abandoned and thus must find a way to make it all add up. Life is full of heartaches – even when dad and mom are both in the home together for decades, muchless when mom alone has to do it. So, I am not trying to be simplistic in my replies. Only honest though that in spite of our current failures and those that have “happened” to us, the TRUTH of what God has written in His Word does not change and we must not ever allow ourselves to measure Truth that He has inspired by our circumstances. God in Christ is good to us, even when all that comes our way seems bad. Again, I am not trying to be simplistic. I know that daily there are great burdens that single moms face and that many, if not most churches, grossly fail. ( as a side, our church has worked really hard to support one in our midst who is a single mom, so to speak. Our sons go over and do fencing work for them, other repairs, etc. Money to help, etc. Does she still have it hard and does she work a job – yes to both. ) Much of all this is a fruit of a church that abandoned biblical truth along time ago and subsequently much damage has been done to the homes in America. Pulpits went silent on the demise that will surely come when women choose to skip the home for a career ( when they are married). Preachers were afraid to tell their flocks that the lady should pursue the home for fear of losing members and thus income, etc. Fear of causing splits, etc.

    But the solution to these huge problems is not found by going futher in the wrong direction. That is why I am saying that we must stop this bad counsel and begin to hold the home up as God’s training ground for young men and young women and that it needs a fulltime dad working hard every day for them and a fulltime mom at home that is passionately loving and teaching them of Christ. Yes, this is ideal and yet this very truth IS THE SOLUTION for the next generations. ( we don’t need DP men to say this, but only God in His Word.) They will not find improvement by continuing to disregard even more of the Word of God by going deliberately looking for careers. And if us old folks ( we have been married almost 30 years) don’t tell them the truth, who will?

    Sure, you and many other ladies are in a difficult journey, but God in Christ IS FAITHFUL to those who seek Him with their whole heart and stay anchored to the scriptures. It still means hardship because you and others are the fallout of a ruined, compromised system. But you yourself, instead of letting the loud voices of feminism and disregard for the Word drown out the high call to the home– you very ladies can be a herald to those younger that there is a better way in Christ, a way according to His design of the home. Will there still be men who will fail their families and abandon them – yes. That will never stop, but not all of them will. Today, young people have no clue how to model a Christian home according to the Word of God, not in rules, but in the spirit of longing to honor the Christ and His Word. We must show them both by our repentant examples when we correct our past errors and by helping them believe that God has spoken truth to us, even when it appears not to work.

    HE CANNOT FAIL and His Word will not perish. These are not empty words as some suggest of “be warm and filled”. They are truth and armed with that truth, a young christian man and young christian lady have no reason to fear the future, for they are held in the hand of Christ. They are truths that set us free. We ought to INSPIRE the young ladies to the home. Not ideallic fairytales mind you, but reality that God will in Christ honor those who honor Him.

    My dad’s ( almost 80 now) homelife was horrible, but he purposed that when he was in high school, that if the Lord would lead him, his home would be different. He thought he would never find my mom, but in the providence of God, he found out about her “by accident” through a gas station contact. They married and after almost 50 years of marriage she died a horrid painful slow death. But she knew he loved her, her family did and Christ was her Redeemer. My dad still misses her today. He and she wanted her to be full time at home and though there was some pressure not to, she stayed home all her married days. He was blue collar, but we had a good home growing up. I saw a model that worked because Scripture says it works. He sat by her every nite her last few years, while she writhed in pain every nite. He prayed for her, sang to her, read Scripture to her, and cared for her poor crippled body. He rose after almost no sleep each nite and when out to his job, eventually broke his health over caring for her. However he honored the Word of God and her. Now he is alone and his health is failing. So he will come to our home to live our his days. A man and woman who believe that what God has said is true have nothing to fear. Though his homelife was bad, very bad, he used that failure to motivate himself to trust the Word of God and the rest is history.

    God may or may not send you someone to marry now, but this I know that He never abandons those who cling to Christ alone for their righteousness and hope. NEVER. Too many have proven this over too many centuries of time for me to doubt this fact.

    DP and these men are miserable men, some times genuinely misled, but often they are men who are wicked deceivers. But that is no excuse for us to reject what God has designed. I would encourage you to consider this in the days ahead as your write.

    We will pray for the grace of God to richly bless you. That is what we need most – all of us. And so some don’t misunderstand, that grace is not just spiritual. It provides our daily bread as well. Tangible grace.

    The Lord bless you for your honesty.

    Don F.
    Matthew 5:6 and Psalms 130

    • Jen Says:

      Don, as I get ready to go to work again, this will have to be quick. 🙂

      I do appreciate your heart in sharing all this, and for the most part, I agree. Ideally, yes, it is always best when Mom stays home with the kids. I would love to have a godly man to love and be able to grow old with.

      My only point of contention is that we cannot call something “sin” that Scripture does not. If it is a sin NOT to stay home, then I, and millions of other women, are living in sin through no choice of our own. Or, I could go on welfare and do it that way … But that would go against every conviction I have in that area as well.

      Thank you for your thoughts and prayers. They are heartfelt, I’m sure, but they do nothing to address my question about what biblical advice you would have for me. I have never left the faith, and will continue to love God and love others all the days of my life. But I will not say that it is a “sin” not to stay home with your kids. There will be life-long consequences, I agree. But it is still not a sin.

      • Molly Says:

        It also does not address those of us who have chosen to stay home but still feel unfulfilled and restless. I know what the patriarchy answer would be- that I am selfish and my heart is wicked and I haven’t given myself over to God’s plan for me. I bought into that line of thinking for a while. Now I dare to believe that maybe God has something more for me, and that my God-given talents and abilities exist for more than doing craft projects with my kids.

    • Molly Says:

      Don, the TRUTH of Scripture is salvation by Jesus Christ alone. Everything in Scripture points us to Jesus. He is the answer. The answer to broken homes and imperfect marriages is not “be a better homemaker.” It is “know Jesus.” You say you do not want to be simplistic, but I have to wonder how those single women, or abandoned wives, or children who do not come from “perfect” Biblical homes must feel when we tell them that the answer to all their problems is to follow an ideal. The answer is to know God, not to try to live up to a standard. If Christianity were just a set of rules and ideals, it would be no different than any other religion on earth. What makes Christianity different is that it allows for relationship with our Creator.

      • Stranger things Says:

        I so agree with Molly. I had a marriage to “godly” man. I thought I would have children, stay at home, be a “helpmeet “. Several abusive years later I was homeless with three children to raise. So I got a career in order not to go on welfare. My sons wives have thanked me for raising wonderful husbands and fathers. I say this because all this talk about daughters being raised to be at home there is another half to this. We need sons who are not just good workers but husbands and fathers in Christ too. It seems in Patriarchy women carry the fault. God created man and woman for a reason. Jesus honoured women. Why do not Patriarchs? I see the woman’s role emphasized but not the man’s role. I am with you Jen. Where are the godly men?

        • DaMom Says:

          Where are the godly men?

          Still growing up, perhaps………the age of adolescence has increased up to age 25 this year–> http://www.americanthinker.com/blog/2013/09/m-an_adolescent_until_age_25_child_psychologists_increase_age_range_they_can_treat.html

          Back in the day, many men were fairly mature and married in their 20’s, so if adolescence has increased to age 25, then those who are in their 30’s now, would be considered the 20 yr olds back in the day, and those who are in their 40’s now, would’ve been in their 30’s a few years backl..mentally/emotionally. Maybe that’s why many are not marrying in their 20’s and why there are so many “singles” out there. Of course, there are exceptions, but these are just some of my musings.

        • Jen Says:

          DaMom, are you telling me that I need to look for an OLD nan to marry? 😉

        • DaMom Says:

          Personally, that could be a lot of re-training/training to have to endure….maybe. lol The women in my family who have been hurt by divorce or widowed, decided to stay single and were happy as a lark in doing so. I know some women desire companionship from men and there’s nothing wrong with that, but there are some women who are content with their own company and don’t need a man to fill that void. A very sweet lady from a former church of mine, outlived her husband by 20+ years and was content with life. She was the sweetest thing to be around. Sure, she missed her husband, but she looked to God as her “new” husband and loved “life” until she was called home at 93 years of age.
          I also remember my “widowed” neighor who said that men her age (60’s) only wanted a nurse-maid and since she had been that and more with her 1st husband, she wasn’t going to do that again with another man. smile
          My husband knows he’s my one and only. grin

    • Quiverful Questioner Says:

      Don, I’d like to share my perspective on your comments regarding girls not seeking a career and instead training to become homemakers.

      Growing up, my mother and both my grandmothers were stay at home mothers/wives for the most part. (My mother worked for a short period when I was in high school when my father’s business was not doing well.) Mainly due to the influence of my maternal grandmother, all I ever wanted to be was a wife and mother. I didn’t really have any aspirations for a career outside the home. However, I must say that my parents highly encouraged me and my siblings to all go to college. And that is what I did.

      I earned a degree in home economics with a concentration in textiles. Later, I earned a degree in elementary Ed and then a master’s degree in education. All throughout this time, I earnestly desired to be married. While there were men that expressed interest in me, I knew that they were either morally questionable, unable to support a wife and family financially on their own income, or were just plain looking for a wife to support them financially. I was not willing to compromise on my desire to be able to stay home with my children or my desire to be married to a man I truly loved. I decided I would be willing to die an old maid, if need be. 🙂

      During this time, while not working, I trained myself in cooking and the other “home arts”. I read up on the subjects and learned from married women in my church in hopes that maybe someday I would be married. My education and vocation did not diminish my desire for home life, but it did allow me to be neither destitute nor desperate while waiting for marriage.

      Eventually, I did get married…at 37 years old. And God in his graciousness has given us two beautiful children, despite our “advanced” age. 🙂 While I have learned first hand the realities of two sinners marrying and the accompanying need for forgiveness, I would say we have a happy loving marriage.

      We are planning on homeschooling our kids and my education degree will come in handy (although I would by no means say that every homeschooling mother needs to have an Ed degree to do a good job). I also am grateful for the degree just in case laws are passed that might restrict homeschooling based on parental education.

      Also, if my husband should ever die, I would be able to use many aspects of my education to provide a living for myself and my children, FROM HOME. I am solidly committed to never having to send my kids to daycare, never working in a job outside the home.

      All that to say, getting higher education does not mean that girls will abandon homemaking, as long as they have been given a beautiful example of what it can be. And, depending on the education/career path they choose, it could enable them to provide for their family and stay home with them too, if the necessity ever arises.

      • Jen Says:

        Quiverfull Q, welcome! Thanks for sharing your story. You waited a long time. I pray that you experience many blessings in your family!

      • DaMom Says:

        [[All that to say, getting higher education does not mean that girls will abandon homemaking, as long as they have been given a beautiful example of what it can be. And, depending on the education/career path they choose, it could enable them to provide for their family and stay home with them too, if the necessity ever arises.]]

        Exactly.

        • Donna Says:

          Yep. I know MANY women for whom this is the case, myself included. Although I personally didn’t get a degree, but I did take some college classes. Just never needed a full degree for the work that I did. I enjoyed my job and made decent money, and could’ve done more to pursue an even higher paying position. I would’ve gotten it, too, because I was good at my job and was well liked in the workplace. But that wasn’t my goal. I *always* wanted to be married and stay at home with my kids, and that never waned the entire time I worked in my “temporary career” until I was able to stay at home. I also know many other women for whom this is true, and they DO have college degrees… either an Associate’s, a Bachelor’s, or even a Master’s. These women have happily stayed at home since starting their families, and homeschooled their children since day one.

          Okay, here’s another thought: The idea that college will automatically corrupt our children, and especially daughters. Really? I can’t tell you the number of women/couples I know who either met and/or became Christians during their college years! Yes, they were actually SAVED at college. Many of them met their husbands at college. Some did not meet them there, but did meet them *during* college and they got married, moved, and then finished college together. Some met their husbands after college, but met them *because of* what they were doing with their lives *as a result of* having gone to college. (IOW, they wouldn’t have been in that place at that time to meet their husbands if it weren’t for their degree and job/career.) But they ALL became stay-at-home moms as soon as they had their first child (or before), have given their children excellent educations at home AS WELL AS a Godly heritage and Biblical (not cultic) Worldview, and would have it no other way.

          OTOH, I’ve also known many women who suffered and struggled their entire lives and COULDN’T stay at home (or did, but struggled badly) because they (or their husbands) DIDN’T have a good education. Hhmmmm….

  33. paula coyle (@t3rri3rg4l) Says:

    Oh it’s a Sovereign Grace church. Go figure.

  34. paula coyle (@t3rri3rg4l) Says:

    OH, sorry, missed this:

    “The Phillips family became members of Pastor Gifford’s church, Sovereign Grace Baptist Church in Woodbridge, VA (not affiliated with Sovereign Grace Ministries). Pastor Gifford was a significant influence in teaching the Phillips family the doctrines of grace, both from the pulpit, and in the Christian school.”

  35. CPM Says:

    In response to the idea that God was gracious to let Sproul Jr’s wife die, let me just add that there is another way to spell “grace.” D-I-V-O-R-C-E

    I long for the day when a battered and abused spouse no longer feels it is their duty to stay and take this in order to prove how much they love, and are devoted to God, or family.

    • raswhiting Says:

      CPM, Re: “In response to the idea that God was gracious to let Sproul Jr’s wife die, let me just add that there is another way to spell “grace.” D-I-V-O-R-C-E”

      Amen!

    • zooey111 Says:

      The poor woman is forever free of his abuse. Divorce would have been more than justified, but we know that she finally is in a safe, peaceful place where no one can ever harm her again.

  36. Lacy Etter Says:

    If your interested in a polygamist life style check out sisterwives We would love to have you.

    • T.W. Eston Says:

      Sorry about the delay in approving your comment, Lacy Etter, but I just now discovered your comment in the spam folder. I suppose that when you try and post a comment promoting a “polygamy dating” web site that WordPress automatically assumes it’s spam. I’m a little surprised that you posted your comment in this particular thread since there’s been no discussion here about polygamy. However, I have noted that Doug Phillips is a functional polygamist in another thread.

      • Observer Says:

        TW:
        Is this a joke? (Lacy Etter). Not being sarcastic.

        • T.W. Eston Says:

          It’s no joke. The comment doesn’t appear to have come from a spambot, so I’m assuming that Lacy Etter is a real lady in a real polygamous marriage, or what they often call “plural marriage”. She apparently likes the idea so well that she’d like to see others do the same.

        • Observer Says:

          TW: This has an air of unreality. I have always thought of polygamy as a situation where all the parties know each other and are aware of the nature of the relationships— (Leah and Rachel). DP’s wife and/or children may have not been consciously aware of Cassandra’s real relationship with their husband/father.

        • T.W. Eston Says:

          Beall did know, and she knew for a very long time. It’s unlikely the younger children knew, although it’s hard for me to believe that Josh wasn’t onto his dad.

        • Observer Says:

          Very sad. Very sinful for both husband and wife. Assuming tacit understanding. Full blown polygamy would be where husband is in tent A one night and tent B the next, etc.

        • Observer Says:

          How in the world are these children going to be able to forgive both parents? For the record, my hubby agrees completely with you—polygamous. I guess something inside of me wants to spin it so that the situation is not as bad as it really is.

  37. The Superiority Complex. | Roll to Disbelieve Says:

    […] getting the message wrong. They don’t even wonder if the message itself is the problem. From Jen’s Gems comes this quote from a pastor, Robert Gifford, who worked with the disgraced adulterer and sexist […]

  38. Al Says:

    The problem is not a “movement”. It’s believers that choose to follow men. As Christians we have to stop following men and their movements because their teachings appeal to our flesh. Study the Word and “try” the teachings we hear with Word. Folks like Mr Phillips would fall by the wayside if we would.

    • DesiringToDiscern Says:

      Even if a preacher begins his ministry with an awesome biblical message (not meaning Phillips) some do stray far from the truth…at which point there needs to be a biblical confrontation…or possibly leaving…… no matter how much we may care about the person himself. It is critical that Jesus be Lord, not any man. We can speak the truth in love and must not partake of the works of darkness and error.


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