On January 1, 2014 the remaining Elder, and the new Provisional Elder of Boerne Christian Assembly, the church founded by Doug Phillips, posted the following on their web site:
A Statement by the Elders of Boerne Christian Assembly about Former Elder Doug Phillips. Doug Phillips served as an Elder for Boerne Christian Assembly until January, 2013, when he resigned from his office. This resignation from the office of Elder was submitted prior to his confession to church leadership in February, 2013 of an inappropriate relationship with a woman (referenced in his Statement of Resignation from the office of President, on the Vision Forum Ministries website) and associated deception. In the months following, efforts were undertaken toward the goals of restoration and repentance between the parties involved and their respective families . As under-shepherds of a flock of Jesus Christ we take seriously the responsibility to confront those overtaken in a fault, in meekness, in pursuit of the purity of the body, healing for those wounded by the effects of sin, and restoration of those caught in fault, after display of repentance. Doug Phillips confessed these sins, professed repentance of these sins before his local church body, and has been publicly rebuked by the Elders of his church for those same sins. As shepherds and Elders of the flock of Jesus Christ at Boerne Christian Assembly we have sought to provide admonition, personal accountability, and to work toward sound Biblical thinking, repentance, and restoration with all those involved. Healing is the work of the Holy Spirit. It is our desire, as much as is possible, to promote unity within the body of Christ through Biblical counsel, instruction, and oversight, with Biblical pastoral care. The notoriety of this situation, due in part to the national exposure of Doug Phillips’s ministry, brings with it additional challenges and duties. The consequences of sin are great. We long for God’s blessing, preservation of His flock, and continued healing to be ministered by the Word and the Spirit of God unto to all.
Bob Sarratt, Elder
Jeff Horn, Provisional Elder
This is a blatant attempt by Bob Sarratt to cover his backside. Jeff Horn makes himself equally complicit. Note the response below by former Personal Assistant to Doug Phillips, Bob Renaud:
Bob Renaud January 1, 2014 Did you see the pathetic statement by the BCA elders? http://www.boernechristianassembly.org/…/statement-by…. This is terrible. I personally told Bob Sarratt he was negligent for not dealing with this issue for eight months and keeping it quiet. He never informed the VFM board of the infidelitiey. This is terrible that just now they are issuing a statement and trying to claim they did their biblical duty. It wasn’t until we exposed what was going of that they got serious. The statement is full of Bill Clinton like language. Just like Doug’s statement. It’s sad that these men are not heeding the counsel of wiser and more mature men that have been trying to come along side them. God have mercy.
I know that Bob Renaud is speaking the truth on this. Bob Sarratt was well aware of Doug Phillips’ infidelities, and he had known for a long time. Things came to a head in January 2013 when Doug and “Cassandra” were caught in Cassandra’s family home, in the act, by two of Cassandra’s family members. Given the nature of those shocking circumstances it’s difficult to comprehend how Doug is even alive today. At the very least one would have expected those family members to have beaten Doug Phillips to within an inch of his life. But remember we’re talking a cult here, and just like David Koresh was allowed to bed any woman of his choice, Doug Phillips was given an extraordinary level of leeway.
Bob Renaud was as well connected to Doug Phillips, and for about as many years, as was Peter Bradrick, who said of his mentor and “spiritual father”:
Peter Bradrick November 27, 2013 The past decade of my life has been defined by my close relationship with my mentor and former spiritual father. Those who know me recognize my longstanding, fierce commitment to his family, his work, and his legacy. As soon as I caught wind of what was going on, I became very involved in working towards fulfilling the duties of friendship and brotherhood – to confront a man who has been like a father to me for a third of my life and plead with him to truthfully confess, and to genuinely take responsibility for longstanding betrayal of everything we had fought together for with the hope of ultimate restoration.
Friends… truth and justice are mercy. Covering sin is not mercy. (Proverbs 28:13, “He who covers his sins will not prosper, But whoever confesses and forsakes them will have mercy.”) This was the message of the men that joined me to go in person to plead with him. Men he’s called “bosom brothers”, son’s in the Lord, close friends, and a mentor of his. What for us was a tender, emotional, mission of mercy and plea for true repentance was met with something, and by someone I never could have imagined. Instead of being received as the “wounds of a friend” (Proverbs 27:6), I was formally disowned and declared to be a “destroyer” to my face.
There is no way to describe the soul crushing blow I was dealt that day and it’s overall impact on my life. It’s was like experiencing the scene from Braveheart… where William Wallace finds out he’s been betrayed by Robert the Bruce, over and over again. Walking away from that meeting, I couldn’t speak for hours I was so stunned. I am still physically, emotionally and spiritually broken and asking God to give me wisdom. I know many people are so very hurt and confused regarding what has transpired and my prayer for myself, my family, and everyone involved is that we look to Christ alone with hearts of love, mercy, and repentance seeking to root out the sin in our own lives. Galatians 6:1 Brethren, if a man is overtaken in any trespass, you who are spiritual restore such a one in a spirit of gentleness, considering yourself lest you also be tempted.
You’re not alone, Peter. Doug Phillips has betrayed dozens of people, and most of them in far more dastardly and devastating ways than you. You and Bob Renaud drank the Kool-Aid, but I don’t say that to slam you (I was a member of a cult once myself). I have prayed many times for you both, and so many others, that God would heal and restore you. I also pray for those few families that remain in BCA. May God deliver them.
Even though Doug Phillips is no longer an official Elder at BCA, he has as much influence and control there as he ever did, and certainly far more than Bob Sarratt. Doug Phillips is the puppet master and Bob Sarratt remains his puppet. It’s important to understand who Bob Sarratt is. Bob Sarratt was hand-picked to be an “elder” not because he in any way meets the biblical qualifications of the office per Titus 1:5-9 and 1 Timothy 3. Indeed, according to scripture Bob Sarratt is disqualified, just as Doug Phillips is disqualified. Bob Sarratt is disqualified because he is not “apt to teach” (1 Tim 3:2). Doug Phillips is disqualified because he is not the husband of one wife (1 Tim 3:2). He also fails the tests of: “above reproach, faithful to his wife, self-controlled, respectable, not violent but gentle, not quarrelsome, not a lover of money.”
Doug Phillips served as the sole elder of BCA for at least five years, even though he was frequently heard to say, “We believe in a plurality of elders.” When asked then why was he the only elder, Doug would reply, “When I find a man that agrees with me 100%, he can be an elder.” If ever there were a yes-man Bob Sarratt is him. Even long before Bob Sarratt became an elder, and during the entire time that he was a deacon, he started each Sunday service by going up to the pulpit and announcing, “We believe in a plurality of elders.” Needless to say this was all theatrics. Even Doug Phillips stepping down as an elder in January 2013 proved to be nothing but theatrics, and clearly it was not motivated by any genuine repentance. In fact his cover story was that he was stepping down to spend more time with his family.
It’s equally important to understand the “no gossip” rule at BCA and Vision Forum, as well as how far reaching the influence of Doug Phillips’ “no gossip” rule has extended. Doug Phillips has railed against so-called gossipers for years, and gossip is whatever Doug Phillips defines it to be. As Doug Phillips has often said, “He who defines the terms wins”, and the way Doug defines gossip is by equating gossip with a violation of the 9th Commandment. This is quite typical of how Doug Phillips twists and distorts sacred scripture for his personal agenda. To Doug Phillips gossip is anything that anyone says about him, or about his friends, that he doesn’t like. It makes no difference to him whether the things said about him are true and already public information. Say something about Doug Phillips that he likes, even if it’s just complete lies and fabrications (and there have been plenty of his sycophants who have done so to feed his massive ego), but that’s not gossip. But say anything true about Doug that he doesn’t like and it’s not just merely gossip, it’s “wicked gossip” or the “horrific sin of gossip.”
In the religious sociological cult world that is Boerne Christian Assembly there are few sins that are as grave as the sin of gossip. Marital infidelity is comparatively minor and can easily be covered up for months and years on end, and I’m not just speaking of only Doug’s infidelity. In 2004 a 17 year old BCA girl got pregnant*. She was forced to confess and repent before the entire church by Elder Doug Phillips and Deacon Bob Sarratt. However, the identity of the man who impregnated the girl was kept a secret and limited to the knowledge of a few key men. Infidelity has been repeatedly swept under the BCA carpet, as is also clearly evidenced by the fact that Jennifer Billings Grady remains an active member at Boerne Christian Assembly.
Yet the so-called sin of gossip is termed “horrific” by Doug Phillips. This is one of the most oft-used mind-control tools Doug Phillips has pulled out of his toolbox, and he’s used it to tremendous effect. Doug Phillips injects massive doses of guilt and shame to prevent anyone from confronting him and holding him accountable, or even so much as reading anyone’s blog where they might find “gossip” about him. What few BCA members and Vision forum employees and interns that have read our articles and posted comments here have inevitably condemned it as, “I see your fruit on this site and it is wicked gossip.”
The fruit of Doug’s “no gossip” rule has created many more non-thinking people than just within the walls of BCA and Vision Forum. That mind-control influence has been spread to thousands of home school families too, and that mind-control prevents thousands from so much as looking at a blog of this nature lest their utopian home school dreamworld be contaminated. They will remain in a state of blissful ignorance for months, and perhaps even years, to come, remarkably like the remaining BCA members.
Bob Sarratt and Jeff Horn claim that “we take seriously the responsibility to confront those overtaken in a fault”. How exactly did they do so? By permitting Doug Phillips to continue with his public speaking engagements at conferences on biblical family values, godly living, etc.? Did they do so when they permitted him, without any objections, to continue selling recorded sermons that he had preached at BCA on the Vision Forum web site and Blue Behemoth, which he continues selling to this very day? Did they do so by concealing from the Vision Forum Ministries board of directors the fact that Doug had been cheating on his wife for 12 years?
Bob Sarratt and Jeff Horn are liars and deceivers. They learned from the best. That is a statement of fact. It is not gossip.
*Editor’s Note: After further investigation, I’ve revised the article to remove a reference that stated that the girl was impregnated by another BCA member. The assumption by a number of BCA members had been that the father must have been another BCA member because of the secrecy with which the matter of the father had been treated. If the father had not been a BCA member, common sense would have dictated that the BCA Elders would have simply said so. They didn’t need to identify the father by name, but they certainly needed to provide some assurances to the members that the father wasn’t one of their own. Evidently that didn’t happen, and there were only a few who knew anything at all. It should have been common knowledge, not a secret.
This is an excellent example of how the “no gossip” rule can easily backfire. Secrecy fosters speculation; disclosure prevents it. For years there has been speculation that even Doug Phillips himself might have been the father of this “love child”. Doug was very foolish to have not put that speculation to rest long ago. The solution to gossip isn’t to brow beat church members into silence. The solution is reasonable disclosure on a need-to-know basis by church leadership, coupled with true biblical instruction. There was a genuine need to know in this case. BCA members didn’t need all the details, but they certainly needed to know more than they were told.
Please don’t throw out your Doug Phillips and Vision Forum CDs, DVDs and books. Jen and I are doing a research project and hope to write a book. Please send those materials to Jen. You can email her for a mailing address.
January 2, 2014 at 3:35 pm
Was the man who got the girl pregnant a husband or a single man?
January 2, 2014 at 4:02 pm
January 2, 2014 at 4:15 pm
Grace Alone, probably married.
January 2, 2014 at 7:06 pm
Who does know who “he” is and what has happened to this mother and child? Are they still in the community? is her family? Did the father pay her child support? I feel so sorry for her.
January 2, 2014 at 7:47 pm
Oh my. Did the wife know about her husband’s affair? So heartbreaking. Why was the man not called to repentance? Was he removed from the church’s fellowship as per Matthew 18?
January 2, 2014 at 8:01 pm
The man is still in very good standing in the church. I doubt his wife was informed. It’s all been kept hush hush.
January 3, 2014 at 11:56 am
T.W.: is the Girl and her baby still there at church as well or have they left? This is blowing my mind!
January 2, 2014 at 11:52 pm
Is this info going to go public? I can’t believe there is a love child running around, now 10 years old, and he/she doesn’t know who his/her dad is and yet he happens to be a member at BCA today in good standing. How in the world did they get the mother to keep quiet all these years?
January 2, 2014 at 11:59 pm
I’m hoping that she’ll tell her own story here, but that’s for her to decide.
How did “they” get her to be quiet all these years? As I’ve mentioned before Doug has employed all manner of trickery, manipulation and strong arm tactics to keep people quiet, including threatening them with lawsuits. I don’t know that that has happened in this case, nor do I know if any money was involved.
January 3, 2014 at 12:13 am
Perhaps if she tells her story, it will encourage Beall to tell hers.
January 3, 2014 at 12:16 am
I wouldn’t look for that to happen (Beall to tell her story) in the next several years, or likely ever. Think Stockholm Syndrome.
January 3, 2014 at 11:57 am
btw………there’s no statute of limitations on something like this……….hoping she will have the courage to come forward!
January 2, 2014 at 4:35 pm
I am so utterly disgusted with Doug Phillips and the Boerne Christian Assembly. So let’s see, this church was responsible for the following:
1) was started in a lie (that Doug had been “sent” by his former church in VA),
2) did not operate in accordance with it’s own teachings or the 1689 confession it embraced (plurality of elders),
3) allowed a married man to commit adultery and have a child with a teenage girl with no consequences,
4) allowed a cougar to regularly prey on married and young men (and to have sex with some or more of them — the SSB blog says she was a regular visitor to Doug’s home whenever Beall went out shopping) with no consequences,
5) enabled Doug in many ways via free labor, gushing support, etc.,
6) excommunicated Jen and her family for dubious reasons, and
7) covered up Doug’s open adulterous affair with Cassandra.
And this is the church I almost moved my family across the country to join? And all the while this was going on? I feel so sorry for the families that did move there and invested so much in this complete lie of a church. How do the members of BCA even live with themselves? How could you members of BCA allow this to continue, especially whenever some wide-eyed groupie came to visit in the hopes of moving there to join the “community?”
Jen: Are you the ONLY one that tried to warns others? At this point you are the only one without blood on your hands!
Shame on Doug Phillips, shame on Bob Sarratt, shame on Jeff Horn, and shame on the members of BCA. The church should be disbanded to avoid any additional pain and grief. At least there would then be closure to this entire mess for the members. But still lots of healing that needs to happen all around.
January 2, 2014 at 4:46 pm
Why would you even consider moving across the country to join this church? Seriously. why? The CDs and preaching and homeschool conventions?
January 2, 2014 at 4:47 pm
A Dad – Thank you for your response above. We and many others did warn and got in lots of trouble and did leave a few years back. .This has been stated in numerous other comments from many of us on this site.
We are still under church discipline according to BCA and are all awaiting apologies from Sarratt, DP and others who are still there. I think it may never come unfortunately. We have never been given letters of release and are still under threat of excommunication.
They use this as a cult control tactic on us. It is ridiculous and sinful how they have treated us and many other good families who have never caused a bit of trouble in any areas in our lives and now this is how we were “handled” when we tried to leave over the cougar and other sins we saw and questioned. Disciplined for others sin! That about sums it up!
I think we all got too close to the real truth and other lies going on so they had to do this in their thinking to remain in control of the empire. We agree BCA needs to disband and be gone forever.
January 2, 2014 at 5:09 pm
Raymond249 – it was years ago that we had that notion when we were knee deep into the patriarchy movement. We thankfully came to our senses and regained a more balanced view of the Christian family life.
Not Fooled Anymore – I stand corrected. You are among the others that were smart enough and honest enough to bail out and tried to warn others. Too bad so many other BCA families could not see things so clearly and stayed on to allow the sins and crimes to continue.
But at this point, there are still many others that are continuing the charade by continuing to attend the church and many that are still looking for that ideal church community that may not know any better.
By the was, has Doug Phillips come forward at BCA to confess his many sins?
January 2, 2014 at 5:16 pm
Thank you A Dad. Unfortunately those families still there I just, well, I just don’t even know what to think as to why. I would not want to be in their shoes nor do I understand Jeff Horn coming alongside Sarratt this past year. It blows us away and the fact that others across the nation are still defending this man and the message of the ministry that was founded on total lies.
January 2, 2014 at 7:16 pm
A Dad, wow, that is quite a list of charges against BCA you listed there! Unfortunately, that is the short list. If you really knew about all the other disciplinary actions, rather than helping those who were hurting; or why certain employees left VF; or how marriage counseling really happens at BCA; or how elders counsel cougars down by the river after church; or any number of a very long list, you will be counting your blessings that you never moved here for another MAN.
From what I understand, a few others tried to talk to their friends about BCA, but I don’t think anyone else has said anything publicly. Still.
January 2, 2014 at 4:05 pm
Do you know if Botkin and Swanson have addressed this at all? And how do we know of “12 years” exactly? Thank you for your post.
January 2, 2014 at 4:11 pm
Cassandra started working part-time in the Phillips’ home when she was 15, and full-time by 17, which is when he started having daily access to her. When he resigned from VFM and posted, ” I engaged in a lengthy, inappropriate relationship with a woman” we know the first part is vague but still plausible (10-12 years would indeed be “lengthy”), and the second part is a Clintonesque.
As to Botkin and Swanson, to my knowledge neither man has said anything specific about the Doug Phillips sex scandal and its aftermath.
January 2, 2014 at 4:40 pm
January 2, 2014 at 4:22 pm
Excellent article ! Thank you for this.
January 2, 2014 at 4:27 pm
You’re most welcome.
January 2, 2014 at 4:39 pm
@woman of freedom Is it true they haven’t moved yet? Someone posted here recently that they had moved to a smaller home in SA.
January 2, 2014 at 4:48 pm
Not as of today I can tell ya that. They’re there right now actually. Parked in the big fat middle of the cult-de-sac
January 2, 2014 at 7:49 pm
WWF, I’m so glad to see you have posted here and on SSB! I was afraid something had happened to you. I don’t trust DP and have all ideas he knows about these boards and might figure out who you are.
January 2, 2014 at 11:11 pm
Oh grace alone thank you! I’m fine- Doug can’t hurt me and if he read these yes he would know who I am . It’s ok, I’ve dealt with worse . Just had a baby a little early is all- God is good! Just took a little break. All is well, and they’re gone soon woohoo !
January 3, 2014 at 12:34 am
WFF, did you just have a baby? Congratulations!
January 3, 2014 at 12:01 pm
Congrats on the new little one! Hope you and your family are enjoying the new blessing!
January 4, 2014 at 2:18 am
Woman for freedom, congrats firstly ! Also, you mentioned on SSB that DP’s kids were already showing signs of rebellion. Can you comment more on that ? I can not even begin to imagine how this would affect his children.
January 4, 2014 at 1:53 pm
Also, you mentioned on SSB that DP’s kids were already showing signs of rebellion. Can you comment more on that ? I can not even begin to imagine how this would affect his children.
I am obviously NOT W4F but I can tell you a bit….I don’t have creedence to the others but I can tell you about Joshua Phillips. He’s JUST like Doug. He is arrogant, self centered and basically acts like “his stuff don’t stink”. He has a “frat boy” mentality and is very much in the party scene within the VF community. I remember not that long ago hearing about a bachelor party for a very prominent family within the VF culture (on the fringes but they have LOTS of $$ and lots of clout). It included lots of stuff that would turn your head like kidnapping the groom, dressing him up like a girl, going to strip clubs, LOTS and LOTS of alcohol consumption etc. Joshua was included in that said party……….so yeahhhhhhhh………..Joshua acts basically no more different than some over priveledged spoiled, rotten rich kid brat of a “celebrity” that has a huge sense of an entitlement mentality………he’s the “golden boy” of the Phillips family!
January 4, 2014 at 3:10 pm
I wish we could verify this stuff. We have friends that stubbornly refuse to believe any of it.
January 4, 2014 at 3:18 pm
Cindy lacy, what exactly do you want verified?
January 4, 2014 at 5:39 pm
I don’t really know. I know a young lady who has a very high opinion of Joshua Phillips. She would not believe any of the things that are being said about the young people in that group. Of course, her family in particular is very skeptical of the whole “sex scandal” incident; they don’t believe that DP could have done anything really bad. On the other hand, they have only met the Phillips once or twice.
January 4, 2014 at 4:07 pm
@ Watchful eyes –
Oh, there’s a whoooole culture here among the “community” young people of partying. Their parents just don’t know about it usually. These kids have their good girl/boy smiles on for mommy & daddy but when the group gets together, well, there ain’t much holiness to be found.
January 4, 2014 at 4:17 pm
JAS -You know, I used to feel bad that my older kids did not get invited to all the goings on around here. Now I am so thankful as I think God spared us from a lot. The part that hurts is that the young people many times who are/ were hurt by this group are the ones who are being left out but yet it sounds now like it was a real bad scene as we did hear rumors of some things. But it is destroying the faith of many good young people from the rejection that is so painful and many of them are not yet old enough to see they are really being spared by God. Parents please wake up and get your kids out of this local mess and stop blaming your kids when they go south if you don’t!!
January 4, 2014 at 5:06 pm
@ Not fooled any longer –
I agree with your assessment & I’m thankful too. Yessiree the tattoos, beer swillin’, bar hopping, climbing out of windows at home after midnight, and who knows what all else goes into full swing when mom & dad aren’t looking. Then on Sunday it’s quickly back to long skirts and sanctimonious looks down long noses at any visitors who don’t quite fit the mold. It’s nothing short of wretched.
But God sees all.
January 4, 2014 at 5:45 pm
DP has lied for YEARS about his relationship/blessing/teaching coming from Pastor Gifford. Pastor himself spoke up about that. As far as Josheee… that young fella has looked worn out and angry the last while. There is a reason. My girls used to think he was a nice young man… about 8 years ago. Nowadays they would not get NEAR him.
January 4, 2014 at 5:48 pm
And some of the conversations that I have accidentally overheard amongst these young people when they didn’t know there was an adult around the corner of the building, well, let’s just say those conversations aren’t any different than what you would hear on any secular college campus amongst the fraternity crowd.
January 4, 2014 at 6:36 pm
Just a shadow–this behavior of leader’s kids is so typical in cults. I grew up in one and the “pastor’s” kids were the worse and got away with TONS! Of course, us non-cream-of-the-crop people were called in and falsely accused all the time.
January 4, 2014 at 5:50 pm
And contrary to popular opinion in the “community” it turns out that long skirts are not an impediment to lust or to talking about that lust to others…when they don’t know an adult is listening…around the corner.
January 4, 2014 at 6:35 pm
Just like the Amish, eh? Playing the part on the outside…. Neglecting the heart on the inside.
January 4, 2014 at 6:29 pm
Something I find rather humorous is the fact that almost everything they owned was paid for with donation money as well as all their trips and toys and yet they acted like entitled millionaires. Behaving like celebrities while living on everyone else’s dime. Pretty funny actually.
January 4, 2014 at 7:46 pm
Yessiree the tattoos, beer swillin’, bar hopping, climbing out of windows at home after midnight, and who knows what all else goes into full swing when mom & dad aren’t looking. Then on Sunday it’s quickly back to long skirts and sanctimonious looks down long noses at any visitors who don’t quite fit the mold. It’s nothing short of wretched.
Don’t think this mentality stopped with Joshua Phillips as well. The sweet, little, just out of the grips of mommy & daddy Interns were a huge part of this party scene. They lived in a separate house, separate from the Phillips, so this was a total mentality with them as well. AND why do you think Dougie wanted those interns so young? Oh yeah we know why.
Cindy Lacy, I wished I could give you details but it would tell some people who I am and I can’t do that but I can tell you it’s been within the last year or so.
January 4, 2014 at 7:52 pm
That’s alright. I don’t need details. I just know several families that when I try to speak to them of these things they tell me I should pray for them and not spread rumors. I shudder to think that I once envisioned my own son being a VF intern.
January 4, 2014 at 7:47 pm
JAS: don’t think Doug didn’t know about it either. He was right there in the middle of it…….
January 4, 2014 at 9:23 pm
People witnessed him at parties? W/ young people ?
I have a really hard time picturing tattooes on VF types ! Funny picture . Victorian updo’s and long skirts . Navy blue blazers and tatoos. Ha!
January 4, 2014 at 8:02 pm
I don’t really know. I know a young lady who has a very high opinion of Joshua Phillips. She would not believe any of the things that are being said about the young people in that group. Of course, her family in particular is very skeptical of the whole “sex scandal” incident; they don’t believe that DP could have done anything really bad. On the other hand, they have only met the Phillips once or twice.
Unfortunately, they are probably not alone. Until they get to know people who were damaged or impacted negatively by the Phillips they won’t believe it. Also they are in that “cult mindset” and it’s part of the denial and there’s probably not anything you can do about it. Just let their lives speak for themselves. The information is out there, but sometimes there are those that there’s nothing that you can do to make them believe anything differently. They have to see it for themselves.
January 4, 2014 at 8:17 pm
@ Watchful eyes –
“AND why do you think Doug wanted those interns so young?”
I completely understand your need to stay anonymous.
However, that question sounds very ominous. I hope it’s not what I’m thinking.
I understand if you can’t give any more details.
But, *shudder*, how has this whole culture of deceit gone on for so long.
God have mercy. Jesus shine the light in the dark places.
January 4, 2014 at 8:25 pm
Cindy Lacy Says:
January 4, 2014 at 7:52 pm
That’s alright. I don’t need details. I just know several families that when I try to speak to them of these things they tell me I should pray for them and not spread rumors. I shudder to think that I once envisioned my own son being a VF intern.
You are not alone. Many feel like they dodged a huge bullet. Out of all of the interns, only 2 were “spared” and normal………in some respects. Their parents kept their hearts and they didn’t go off the deep end. The other interns, the parents lost their kids hearts, they went off the deep end, became rebellious and it tore their family into shreds.
January 5, 2014 at 3:18 pm
JAS: You have these young men who are 17-18 years old. They have an obey authority at all cost mentality. They are from a family that puts Doug up on a pedestal and idolizes him. This is the first time they are away from home. Doug was gone a LOT. They ignored alot of what was going on because their judgement was clouded. The Interns were set up in a situation that was no different than being in a frat house at a secular university. So SO many parents have lost their boys & their hearts because of the intern program. You have young men who have caused so much division within their family because of what happened in SA. You now have young men that came out of that situation that are so arrogant and haughty. Young men that have an extremely difficult time working for someone else or anyone else because of what Doug had deceived them with. Young men that can’t work for someone else, due to their inability to submit to authority or because they are not fulfilling “the call” if they don’t work for themselves. The interns are SO BAD that some of the top dads with eligible daughters to be married, within the circle (Geoff, Voddie & others) won’t allow their daughters to marry anyone that used to be a VF intern! That says something……to me and it’s loud and clear!
January 2, 2014 at 5:47 pm
They’ve purchased or leased (not sure which, not sure it matters) a smaller home in the San Antonio area and are still trying to vacate the VFM home. It’s probably a monumental task of going back and forth to get everything out and clean up the big home for disposition.
January 2, 2014 at 6:10 pm
Tom, you sure you want to commit on the “smaller home” thing? Have you seen it? A friend of mine has and doesn’t think it’s smaller at all, unless by “smaller” you might mean that the swimming pool is outside the home this time. What about the nanny quarters? Are they separate too? Nice neighborhood too! VERY nice and VERY expensive homes. Obviously Doug isn’t hurting any. He must have done a great job skimming all the money out of Vision Forum Ministries before the board of directors could close it down.
January 2, 2014 at 6:16 pm
@Tom I thought VFM owned all the furniture in the house as well as the vehicles, expensive cameras, ect.?
January 2, 2014 at 6:35 pm
I haven’t seen the new home, but my friend has that is helping them move. So I guess it is my friend vs. your friend. Either way the size of the home is not as important as the fact that they are staying in San Antonio. Despite some furniture that stays, there are lots of personal effects. In terms of who gets what, do you think that VFM is really overseeing the move out and helping to determine what belongs to VFM and what belongs to Doug’s family? I think not.
January 2, 2014 at 7:49 pm
Great – man I wish they were leaving San Antonio . I wonder what he’s planning on doing?? Btw it’s very easy to rent very nice homes here. There’s a huge market of nice nice homes for rent that San antonians but to rent to Mexican nationals who want somewhere to stay when in town.
January 2, 2014 at 8:18 pm
@Tom I thought VFM owned all the furniture in the house as well as the vehicles, expensive cameras, ect.?
I think they have already confiscated things that were bought on behalf of VFM, including clothing, ipads, phones, cars, furniture, appliances etc
January 5, 2014 at 7:43 pm
Awe………..poor Dougie and Beall. No ministry, no interns, no slaves, no nanny…….now they have to do their own laundry, their own housework, their own cooking………poor Phillips family 😦 ::snark::
January 2, 2014 at 4:29 pm
I’ve listened to many of DP’s tapes over the years as we’ve homeschooled our four children. I met DP a few times and definitely felt in sync with the guy in many ways—I’m an attorney, too.
That said, it’s tough to square the public persona with what he’s admitted to. If any of the educated guesses about his conduct are true, the guy needs a criminal attorney, among other things.
Jen, what’s your take on the seeming utter lack of accountability? Just classic mind control? And do you think DP ever believed the more high-minded ideals he spouted, or is he a pure charlatan?
January 2, 2014 at 4:57 pm
Steve, I’m the author of this article, so I’ll respond. Jen may, as well, since she’s known him longer than I have.
The lack of accountability was orchestrated that way by Doug. But hypocritically he cites lack of accountability as a primary reason for his slide into years of marital infidelity, in his Statement Of Resignation. This gives him the perfect opportunity to shift some of the blame onto others:
“I thought too highly of myself and behaved without proper accountability. I have acted grievously before the Lord, in a destructive manner hypocritical of life messages I hold dear, inappropriate for a leader, abusive of the trust that I was given, and hurtful to family and friends. My church leadership came alongside me with love and admonition, providing counsel, strong direction and accountability. Where I have directly wronged others, I confessed and repented.”
Doug probably believes every word of this. To do that he would have to be a pathological liar, which he is.
January 2, 2014 at 5:07 pm
Thanks for the reply.
If I could bring up one other “oddity”—probably well-known to you–are issues I noticed regarding the Jonathan Park tapes. As a matter of full disclosure, my boys and I really liked them for many reasons. But over time, I couldn’t help but notice the amazing similarity between plot devices in certain JP episodes and certain old Jonny Quest episodes. I imagine this has been well-documented, and that I’m simply late to the party. I noticed the same issue respecting some JP episodes and a famous movie. In some cases, I could see what appeared to be near textual lifts. My boys picked up on it, leading to a number of homeschooling sessions on copyright law.
In light of all these other issues, I wondered if you had seen the same.
January 2, 2014 at 5:13 pm
I have seen it many times. Doug Phillips is very weak on original thought and he routinely steals intellectual property from others. In some cases he’s even attempted to steal entire businesses. I have an upcoming story that demonstrates this as convincingly as any fraud that he’s ever perpetrated.
January 2, 2014 at 7:08 pm
Steve, after Vision Forum started putting such a heavy emphasis on patriarchy in the JP episodes, I stopped listening, so I don’t know those parallels. If you would like to write an article on this, we would be VERY interested!
January 2, 2014 at 7:11 pm
TW, if BCA’s goal was to provide proper accountability to Doug since February, why does Doug Phillips state that he did not have proper accountability nine months later? What happened to BCA’s accountability program?
January 2, 2014 at 7:24 pm
I’ll put some of the more glaring examples together–the ones which led us to ask who was editing the work.
Back to one of my earlier questions, I have to say I was influenced positively by a lot of what the guy said. He, along with others, woke me up out of a stupor and encouraged me to put some effort into leading the family. But what I’m hearing about BCA life is beyond weird.
Where does the truth lie, in your opinion? Did the guy ever believe this stuff, or was he just selling? Some friends and I—who never went through what you did—are feeling betrayed, to say the least.
January 2, 2014 at 7:30 pm
Steve, I answered that in another comment, I think, but I believe this is the case of the more puffed up Doug became, the less his personal convictions seemed to burn within him. Yes, he truly believed this when he began, but then it grew into a monster of pride, fame, money, etc. He got the point where he apparently thought he was invincible.
I know a pastor (someone totally unrelated) who would preach the most fabulous stuff about living a victorious life in Christ. When I got to know him in real life, it became apparent that he did not practice what he preached. When I finally asked him about it, he said, “Oh, that is for everyone else. I know the right things to do. I just don’t do them.”
I wonder how many pastors really have that attitude? I wonder if Doug got to that point in life, to some degree.
January 2, 2014 at 7:22 pm
Steve, what you read on this blog is far more than “educated guesses.” We do not report anything here without multiple witnesses.
My personal opinion is that Doug thought that grooming “yes” men was how to be accountable. He was very good at grooming, especially young men, but even a couple older men, to be his “yes” men. It is nice to be in the “inner circle,” you know!
Mind control? Absolutely! I wouldn’t be surprised to find out that he actually studied mind control techniques.
Did Doug believe in what he taught? Yes, I think so. But he also quickly found out that if he didn’t provide new ideas, new information, and lead the way into nuancing the details of patriarchy, that he would just own one of many other homeschool businestries. And Doug was brought up to stand out from the crowd, in more ways than one!
January 2, 2014 at 7:52 pm
Wow. I never knew most of this. For what it’s worth, let me apologize belatedly. I saw this site years ago and dealt with it dismissively as just a person with unresolved grievances. The truth seems to be worse than most people knew.
I do wish some of the sycophants had found enough courage to bring it to light earlier.
But I believe good will come from it in time.
January 2, 2014 at 4:36 pm
OK, I had to look it up…CYA, meaning… Cuban Yoga Association or Canberra Youth Ambassador…right? Ooops then I scrolled down…. (blushing) I understand now… and it makes sense. I learned a new acronym today
January 2, 2014 at 5:03 pm
[…] Read more here: https://jensgems.wordpress.com/2014/01/02/doug-phillips-boerne-christian-assembly-more-lies-and-cya/ […]
January 2, 2014 at 5:13 pm
That *provisional elder* thing…. Show me the scripture? 🙂
January 2, 2014 at 5:30 pm
Yeah that is definitely a first. Although they have never had a Pastor either.
January 8, 2014 at 10:52 pm
Trust me, men will find a way to “justify” whatever they wish with all sorts of theological talk and lingo. If they can’t find it in Scripture, they find something in whatever church history they accept and use that, even if it means taking out of context, distorting it, misrepresenting it, whatever. Take a man who is living off of the congregation (and a small one at that) to study for the ministry (basically a self-governed seminary student who is supposedly under the minister of the congregation), he has more time to read and study than anyone else in the congregation. He advantageously uses what he is learning to formulate his own teachings but presents it as teachings of the Reformation and/or Covenanters. He got by with it for a time, but he and the rest of the leadership (a teaching elder and a ruling elder) ended up with it all back-firing on them as the subordinate documents they endorsed and encouraged us all to read (as well as other Reformation and Covenanter writings) were found to contradict what they were trying to pull off. A number of men in the group (and thus their wives and also some others) questioned the authority of the ruling body and the leadership didn’t like that. They decided to make the questioners swear an oath upholding their authority before they would have any dialogue with them regarding their questions. Basically it was “sign the oath or you will receive the greater excommunication”. No one signed the oath that I recall, so there were 10 or more excommunications in one sweep, more than once. As one person called it, it was a “kangaroo court” – nothing truly Presbyterian about it.
January 2, 2014 at 5:13 pm
Thank you for this article…very interesting. So, where do you find all this info? I’ve tried to find things myself but you are the only website I can find on this. You must have connections!
January 2, 2014 at 7:06 pm
kharisshay, yes, only insiders can really write articles like these. 🙂
January 2, 2014 at 6:11 pm
What I would really love to see is an official statement from someone other then Doug Phillips!
January 2, 2014 at 6:14 pm
Thank you Sarah. My thoughts exactly.
January 2, 2014 at 6:16 pm
I’m astounded at how long this was kept “under wraps.” Also, I can’t help but grieve for the young lady who spent her youth being Doug Phillip’s target of lust. My prayers are with her and his other victims.
January 2, 2014 at 6:21 pm
We have purchased many cd’s etc. over the years. I am glad we didn’t listen to many of them. But I did have them in our library to use as reference material if we needed them. Jen, sending you a list of what I have. Good thing my wife saw your note as they were heading out to the garbage this evening.
January 2, 2014 at 7:02 pm
Mike, thank you so much! You have a lot of VF stuff there!
January 8, 2014 at 10:53 pm
Jen, are you looking for items by Doug Phillips only or by others as well?
January 9, 2014 at 8:58 am
Been there, it depends. Is it related to the VF type of patriarchy?
January 2, 2014 at 6:45 pm
Did Faith PCA really respond and interact as it appears on the BCA web site? http://www.boernechristianassembly.org/letters/
January 2, 2014 at 7:01 pm
Ladyjane, here are the articles about Faith PCA. As one of their own elders said privately, “We really f***ed that up.”
January 2, 2014 at 7:10 pm
Would it surprise you to hear that much of it are lies and misrepresentations based upon very selective quotes from Faith PCA correspondence? The FPC elders were extremely displeased with Doug for quoting from their private correspondence, something they expressly told him not to do, and something which he promised them he would not do.
January 2, 2014 at 10:16 pm
Thank you both for your responses. T.W. Eston, you wrote exactly what I was thinking. Just a bit too tipped in favor of BAC. I realize the posts are from 2007 so were you, Jen and your husband allowed to join FPC? And if not on what Biblical grounds did they deny you both from doing so?
I am so sorry you had to go thru any of this. I really feel for you both.
January 3, 2014 at 3:15 pm
faith PCA- is sick that they are in any way aligned with BCA–they have repeatedly asked for those statements to be removed–they made some mistakes–I think they’ve tried to own them. They are disgusted by what has gone on, and Doug bold faced lied and misrepresented what they said. Jen did not get what she needed from FPC. They know that now. They had/have zero connections to Phillips in any way. In fact they’d love nothing more than to have ex-bca come worship and try to give the spiritual help that is much needed. As jen states below–they realize their mistakes in how they handled the jen situation. They were unaware of all this current stuff till it all came out this fall because they have had no contact with Doug or BCA.
January 2, 2014 at 7:04 pm
TW -thank you for this article. Bob Saratt has been aware of many things and has done DP’s dirty work for many years at BCA. He is either totally duped and has no conscience or he is heartless in his dealings with people as an elder. I do not know how he can sleep at night with all he has seen, done, written and said. I had thought I heard somewhere on either this site or another that he was acknowledging some of his involvement, but if this is the fruit it is pretty rotten.In the meantime we will keep waiting for those apologies!!!
January 2, 2014 at 7:10 pm
This post brings me much sadness whenever the cause of Christ gets a black eye. Your post mentioned 12 years of infidelity is there a previous post on this being for 12 years?
So so sad to read this.
January 2, 2014 at 7:36 pm
Not sure where to ask this, but how do I go about getting comments sent to my email?
January 2, 2014 at 8:12 pm
When you leave your next comment, there is a check box under the section where you fill in your name and email. You can click in the box and select notification of new posts by email, and notification of new comments by email.
January 2, 2014 at 9:04 pm
Caught “in the act?” As in…they “knew” each other?
January 2, 2014 at 9:39 pm
I was wondering about the meaning of this as well – “the act?”
January 2, 2014 at 10:40 pm
You can safely assume that “caught in the act” goes far above and beyond snuggling and mouth kissing. Feel free to use your own imagination, but hopefully I don’t have to be any more explicit than that. This is, after all, a G-rated blog.
January 6, 2014 at 2:15 pm
January 6, 2014 at 9:28 pm
But… wait… Doug stated in writing that he did not know her in a Biblical sense… An Esquire and a member of the legal bar would not dare to perjure himself… Right?
January 2, 2014 at 9:14 pm
The first info that was given was that DP and C were caught by DP’s family members. This recent posts says it was C’s family members. Which one is correct? Why did it change?
January 2, 2014 at 9:29 pm
Two separate incidents.
January 2, 2014 at 9:38 pm
What! They got caught by DP’s family and by C’s family at a later time?
January 2, 2014 at 10:07 pm
It happened the other way around.
January 2, 2014 at 10:04 pm
Nothing changed. Both happened.
January 2, 2014 at 10:20 pm
TW are you saying that Cassandra’s family kept this quiet even after they caught them? Or did the Phillips family already know at this point. I’m confused as to why Cassandra was at the Phillips home with Doug after bring caught by her family.
January 2, 2014 at 10:34 pm
Doug allegedly “repented” of the relationship to Cassandra’s family when he was caught with Cassandra in January 2013 in her family’s home. Doug is renowned for his scheming to get people to keep quiet, not to mention his tried and true method of the “no gossip” rule. Had the relationship truly ended at that point it likely would have all remained quiet and Doug wouldn’t be where he is today. But apparently it didn’t end in January, so by February the family had had enough. So in February an emergency BCA meeting was held in which Doug was finally “confronted” by the “elders.” However, the elders took no action of any kind other than to issue some sort of vague warning of no real substance. Doug again “repented”, but the relationship did not end. Doug and Cassandra were later caught together again in the act in the Phillips’ home by Beall and/or Josh.
Beall has known for a very long time of Doug’s marital infidelities. I don’t know if she was just living in abject denial of it for years or if she just didn’t care. It’s hard for most people to comprehend, but remember, that’s life in a cult.
January 2, 2014 at 11:11 pm
But you wrote this earlier… “In January 2013 Doug was literally caught with his pants down, in his home, by one or more Phillips family members. To the best of our knowledge it was Beall and or Josh who caught them.” So, first in Jan at his home and later in Feb at her home? Or the opposite as written in this particular post?
January 2, 2014 at 11:39 pm
Yes, that was the information we had at the time. It’s since been clarified as I have stated it here. My sources don’t always get all the details perfectly right, particularly where it concerns dates, but the overall story is quite accurate. As time goes on and more of the details fall into place, things become more clear.
January 3, 2014 at 12:00 am
I know that happens, but I think its all the more reason not to state things as fact, but “To the best of our knowledge…”, or “From what we understand…” I went through a horrific ordeal when people stated things as if they were facts and yet really did not know what the were talking about. People have lost children to CPS for these things, men have lost jobs over false reports, woman have lost reputations, etc, etc… Just something to consider.
January 3, 2014 at 12:10 am
I acknowledge my error in having originally stated that the first instance occurred in January in the Phillips home, when that actually occurred subsequent to they’re being caught together in Cassandra’s home in January 2013. Given the minor discrepancy, what you’re claiming isn’t a reasonable conclusion at all. How does CPS and lost children have anything to do with it? Why does it make any difference whatsoever when and where Doug and Cassandra were caught in the act, who caught them, where they were caught, and how many times they were caught? The issue is that they were caught at all.
January 3, 2014 at 12:16 am
Well, I’m not accusing you of anything. And I do understand the point is that it happened at all. But my point was that stating things as fact when we are not 100% certain can be very harmful in general, for what its worth.
January 3, 2014 at 12:20 am
100% certain? Well, I guess I’d better just stop reporting altogether if what you demand is perfection. I’m in no mood to continue this with you, so kindly drop it.
January 2, 2014 at 11:01 pm
TW it is so hard to wrap my brain around the fact the the Phillps family carried on after all this. If Beall
knew for years why didn’t they sit together at her father in laws funeral and why wasn’t she at the wedding in October where Cassandra was maid of honor? It would seem that if she had known for years that nothing would really change having a few more people know about it. They continued to do the conferences and trips, behaving like everything was wonderful. How do you know for a fact that Beall
knew about Doug’s mistres? It’s so odd that the children wouldn’t be more shocked and distressed especially the older ones. The fact that Josh continued his globe trotting on donor money right up until December. I’m finding it hard to believe that all the very expensive cameras and travel gear got confiscated.
January 2, 2014 at 11:52 pm
Sarah, it’s hard for any normal healthy person to wrap their brain around much of any of this. That’s why I keep reminding everyone, “This is life in a cult.” Don’t make the mistake of believing you can comprehend it if you only try to use logic and common sense. You have to think cult-like. If you’ve never been in a cult, or if you’ve never studied cult psychology, then it simply won’t make any sense.
I agree with you that Beall has traveled extensively with Doug, making many public appearances, smiling the whole time, and even appearing side by side with Doug as the happy contented wife in various VF video productions. She’s quite the convincing actress, isn’t she? She’s learned well from the master actor. I don’t fault her for that because she’s probably under the same form of mind control that BCA members are under.
I can’t at this time divulge how I know that Beall has known about Doug’s marital infidelities for so long. In time I’ll be able to discuss that back story, but right now I can’t.
As far as all the toys Doug purchased with the VF American Express card, I seriously doubt he’s turned any of it back over.
January 2, 2014 at 10:01 pm
Ah interesting….looks like the link to Bob Renaud’s quote on Facebook is not available to view anymore…..
January 2, 2014 at 10:18 pm
Bobs quote is still on Facebook. Nothing has changed.
January 2, 2014 at 10:40 pm
So when you click on the link in the article above you are able to see the quote? For some reason it tells me “This content is currently unavailable”. I guess it’s just me!
January 3, 2014 at 8:40 am
I just checked and couldn’t find the quote either. For folks just reading this article, the quote was on Bob Renaud’s FB page.
January 3, 2014 at 8:46 am
Angela, it’s on Peter’s FB page as a comment under Jordan’s December 3rd post.
January 3, 2014 at 8:47 am
Thanks! Glad it hasn’t been removed. 🙂
January 3, 2014 at 6:58 pm
FYI: Here is the direct link to the article commented by Robert J. Renaud: https://www.facebook.com/peterbradrick/posts/10201569956983080
For the future: a direct link to a post is found in the date of the post on FB.
Thank you for bringing his comments to light. I used that tangible fact for my news article (and gave you credit), Doug Phillips’ church issues disputed statement about his repentance (examiner.com). I dug into the facts to find a publicly verifiable trail that Renaud worked at Vision Forum (both versions I believe), even speaking and writing for them.
January 3, 2014 at 10:07 pm
Shawn, did you write a new article. If so, I don’t seem to be able to find it. Would you link to it please? Thanks!
January 3, 2014 at 10:41 pm
Here it is: http://www.examiner.com/article/doug-phillips-church-issues-disputed-statement-about-his-repentance
January 4, 2014 at 7:24 am
Jen and/or T.W.,
I may be barking up the wrong tree …..but a questions that comes to mind is this: If Bob Renaud was Doug Phillip’s personal assistant for as long or longer than Peter Bradrick , why is he now just speaking out? Did he know? and if so, did he confront Doug? His tone is pretty harsh about the elders at BCA just now speaking out and “claim they are doing their biblical duty”.aka CYA. Well, if Mr. Renaud knew about all of this – did he do HIS biblical duty? Is that why he left VForum or was he asked to leave, etc….. You know there is ALWAYS a “cover story” and then the REAL story. Also, did he possibly leave after Jennifer Grady’s family moved from STL to San Antonio, TX and what did he know about THAT situation???
January 4, 2014 at 9:54 am
Jen: Here’s the link: Doug Phillips’ church issues disputed statement about his repentance
January 7, 2014 at 12:17 pm
Freedom from Chaos,
You asked several questions about Bob Renaud’s character within the context of Doug Phillips’ infidelity. My response to this question is I believe Bob Renaud certainly handled himself in that situation accordingly as a Christian should have.
January 2, 2014 at 10:43 pm
Why was DP at Cassandra’s home?
Was he there alone?
January 2, 2014 at 10:51 pm
If by alone you mean alone with Cassandra, yes. Why was he there? Ummm…
18 There are three things that are too amazing for me,
four that I do not understand:
19 the way of an eagle in the sky,
the way of a snake on a rock,
the way of a ship on the high seas,
and the way of a man with a young woman.
This may have been Solomon’s way of saying something along the lines of some men allow the little head to think for the big head.
January 2, 2014 at 11:21 pm
I’ve always thought of that passage as a Beautiful thing, rather than in a sin context. Just sayin’ 🙂
January 2, 2014 at 11:40 pm
I had too, at least until now.
January 2, 2014 at 10:48 pm
Wow. Just wow. So thankful you are exposing DP and the patriarchal movement…it turns my stomach. Shedding light on this situation is the most loving thing to do for the sheep. Quite honestly, I am sick of celebrity pastors and their brands.
January 3, 2014 at 12:09 am
Don’t know if I just missed this piece of information but what about “The cougar’s” husband and children?
January 3, 2014 at 12:32 am
Beth, could you rephrase your question to be more specific?
January 3, 2014 at 12:33 am
Beth, I’m not quite sure what you are asking.
January 3, 2014 at 12:39 am
I’m just wondering if her husband and children are a part of BCA? If so, why does he allow this kind of behavior?
January 3, 2014 at 12:48 am
Thanks for clarifying. Yes, the entire family are BCA members. Why Jennifer Grady’s husband allows her to behave as she does isn’t very logical, is it? Given the family dysfunctions I suppose anything is possible. I have my own position on why he allows it, but I’m not at liberty to share that here.
January 3, 2014 at 12:48 am
Yes, they are. Apparently he sees no problem with this.
January 3, 2014 at 1:19 am
There are some women who “claim” they aren’t bothered by their husband’s mistresses either. Some are though. I just finished a series about Princess Dianna where it was told that she had known about Prince Charles and Camilla *before* their wedding day, but many convinced her that it was her “duty” to wed Charles and produce an heir. Sad way to begin a life. I’ve also read where it was common for aristocratic men to have mistresses.
January 4, 2014 at 10:54 pm
Lots of people stay married to their husbands, for various reasons. The biggest reason I think is that we are all afraid of change. What if I move out, will I get to see my kids as much, will I have as much money as I have now, will the house be as nice, will it be hard to move, will I lose friends, will I lose respect? Its not just the Beals of the world that are cheated on. What if you were married to Bernie Madoff or Alex Rodriguez or a Wall Street tycoon or a stripper? Women and men stay married for many reasons, but I think the biggest is a fear of change.
January 3, 2014 at 1:39 am
I wouldn’t put it past Doug, but do you think he’s totally lying when he said he didn’t “know” Cassandra in a Biblical sense? I find it very hard to believe a guy can carry on with some young good looking woman for 12 yrs and not go all the way! Who knows, it could have been Doug that impregnated the 17 yr old at BCA?! I’m shocked at the depraved things coming out, but not really since my husband has thought for years Doug was full of pride and kept a distance when friends were eating it up.
January 3, 2014 at 7:49 am
I’m reasonably confident that Doug Phillips is not the father of the baby I mentioned in the story. The baby has a very distinct appearance that significantly narrows down who the father is. That’s all I’m going to say about it at this time.
The point isn’t that someone impregnated a 17 year old at BCA. The point is that she was made to confess and repent in front of the entire congregation while the man was allowed to conceal his identity. It’s the same form of hypocrisy when the adulterous woman was brought before Jesus (John 7:53-8:11). The scripture says: “The scribes and the Pharisees brought a woman who had been caught in adultery”. Apparently she’d been caught in the act. But you can’t be caught in the act of adultery alone. Why wasn’t the man brought too?
This is just one of many examples of why I say that Doug Phillips is a Pharisee. Two people guilty of exactly the same sin. One is publicly humiliated, the other gets a pass. The only difference between the two is that one is female, the other male.
In this particular case it also goes a little further than that too. Doug Phillips is very much a politician and politicians love having dirt on people. Impregnating a 17 year old, especially when you’re married and you’re considerably older than that yourself gives your “Elder” some major dirt that he can forever hold over your head.
January 3, 2014 at 11:12 am
why weren’t charges filed? could they have not filed charges because she was 17?
January 3, 2014 at 11:57 am
Age of legal consent in Texas is 17.
January 3, 2014 at 11:45 am
Wow! So incredibly heartbreaking!
January 3, 2014 at 2:13 am
Re: the lack of a plurality of elders at BCA, and also the lack of other leaders and mature believers at BCA.
In general, I suggest that a lack of spiritual growth in the believers if a local church is a red flag warning of poor leadership by the one elder. Ephesians 4 tells us: 11 And He personally gave some to be apostles, some prophets, some evangelists, some pastors and teachers, 12 for the training of the saints in the work of ministry, to build up the body of Christ, 13 until we all reach unity in the faith and in the knowledge of God’s Son, growing into a mature man with a stature measured by Christ’s fullness.
If the existing leader(s) are not producing more leaders/servants, then the existing leaders are failing at their duties. And it should not take multiple years. When the Lord converts people from missionary efforts and He begins new churches from scratch, He in short order raises up new leadership. We see that in Acts, and in mission fields today.
January 3, 2014 at 2:55 am
In a recent letter from the NCFIC, among many sent to us recently, and signed by Scott Brown it states that “The burdens have been particularly heavy since September, when I learned of the infidelities of Doug Philips, spanning many years.” Are we to believe that Scott Brown knew nothing of what was going on previous to September? And if he did, why did HE not act on it. We belong to an NCFIC church and are considering leaving because our elders won’t even address our affiliation with the NCFIC by just saying “We are only listed on the website.” Our discerning spirit has for many years said something is not right here with these men. Do we just tell them why we are leaving and walk away? This whole situation has my wife’s stomach in a knot. We have so many friends at our church and there has not been an opportunity to discuss any of this at any type of congregational meeting in at least 2 years. Thank you for all of your time in helping those who have been hurt or those who, like us, seem to have lost their way.
January 3, 2014 at 7:26 am
Dontknowwhattothink… While we will not tell you what to do regarding staying or leaving your church, we do hope that you will ask yourselves and your church some serious questions while you pray about this situation. Is there any way this church can become a healthy church? That is best, of course, but not always realistic.
January 3, 2014 at 8:03 am
I’m not going to say that I know for certain that you’re in a religious sociological cult because you haven’t said enough about it yet for anyone to know for certain. What I will say is that you are describing at least one indicia of a cult – denial. For me it was the very first thing I noticed about my church that caused me to wonder if I was actually in a cult. The worst thing a person can do when they’re members of a church where there’s a lot of denial operative is to accept the denial and then start living in denial of the denial themselves. If you do that then it’s pretty much all over for you.
Denial is a very dangerous thing and it causes us to make very foolish decisions that can have disastrous consequences, not just for ourselves, but for our entire families. God gave us a conscience, and he gave us the Holy Spirit: “When the Spirit of truth comes, He will guide you into all the truth.” (John 16:13). “Our discerning spirit has for many years said something is not right here with these men.” That’s probably the Holy Spirit speaking to you, don’t you think?
January 3, 2014 at 9:42 am
don’tknowwhattothinkanymore, you said “Our discerning spirit has for many years said something is not right here with these men”.
If something has not been right for many years with “these men” you are simply seeing more of the same. There is no need to deny what is plain to see. These men have filled their cups with deceit, abuse, slander, and
dishonest gain, what we are seeing now is their cup overflowing, and their reaction to it will and has betrayed who they are.
By invoking the Biblical sin of gossip, they are using it as an excuse to cover for Doug and protect their own reputations. Don’t expect any clarifications on who knew what and when. The bottom line is Doug was the head of this movement, and instead of coming to the aid of those hurt, instead of offering counsel to his followers, instead of apologizing to the people they led to follow him, “these men” are shouting “don’t throw out the baby with the bathwater”. Any discerning spirit would figure out these are not Biblical leaders,
January 3, 2014 at 10:13 am
Dear don’tknowwhattothink…. As a family that left BCA I would encourage you to listen to your discerning spirit. If you feel you need to ask some questions of your elders then please do so. BUT do not do so naively. Be prepared to be ripped to shreds possibly. If this should happen and you approach them with sincere concern, then you will have a very definite answer. If you should then try to leave, and you are put on church discipline for trying to do so, then you have even more of an answer. I know this may sound very scary. One thing we will say is that there is this blog and others of whom you can seek counsel. WE will do our best to help you get through if need be.
When we left BCA we had no one. It has been so good to be able to share and get some comfort knowing others have been there too. It is hard to do and takes a firm agreement between spouses and if you have older children we feel it is very important they are in on this process and if they are old enough even there for some of the questioning as this will affect them too. Please don’t do like so many if you feel God is calling you away possibly and wait until your children start to doubt the system. Kids and young people do talk and they may be more aware of what is going on than you realize. We too had to apologize to our grown children about our ever joining in the first place.
God is good and has seen us through but it has been terribly painful as we left our dear friends who we found out were not so dear as they were more committed to the cause at the time than to what happened to us. Though many have now left and seen the light it was a very lonely, painful time for us and hard. We now have a great church, where we are blessed, growing and feel spiritually at home.
If at all possible see if you can have a plan for churches to attend and do not be afraid to be honest about your situation with the new pastor. Most pastors who are real pastors have some training in abuse situations and will recognize abuse and cultish behavior. Also if you leave and they won’;t let you go just tell them you are done and going on. A letter of release from a cult is unnecessary if you are honest with your new pastor. Just shoowing them all this internet information and how your church was tied to this in some way will help them to greatly understand if need be. There are true Christians and other home school families out there who will love and come alongside you. We will be here on this site if you need that. We pray that after all that has gone on this church you are in will answer you and not treat you this way. But please don’t be surprised we are sad to say.
Blessings to you as you seek to know God’s will for you and your family.
January 3, 2014 at 10:18 am
We do want to sate that our above comment is “if” you should decide to question and possbiy leave. Only you can decide that for your family. We just wanted to share some very basic tips for if you should decide to do so. We pray God will guide you to his best decisions for you and yours.
January 3, 2014 at 11:09 am
I would just urge that if don’tknowwhattothinkanymore doesn’t totally trust the leadership and goes to them with his concerns, it may be wise to bring a friend he trusts along with him to witness the conversation. This is what my husband did when he approached our abusive pastor about his concerns.
January 3, 2014 at 11:31 am
StillHealing, Yes, bringing a trusted friend would be a wise idea too. That is if any are willing to do so. Many knew of indiscretions at BCA but were not ready and or afraid to come forward with us at the time thus we had to go it alone. So that is why we were cautioning that way.If they have someone they can confide in and is willing that would be helpful, but they may pull a Matthew 18 on them in saying they should have come alone first, or they may need to go alone first and then bring the second person along.
January 3, 2014 at 10:21 am
There was no baby IN the bathwater. It was a pig in a onesie.
January 3, 2014 at 10:22 am
(And that’s not to say that no truth was ever spoken by DP and/or BCA. Just that bits of truth were put on the pig to make it harder to discern.)
January 3, 2014 at 10:34 am
January 3, 2014 at 1:36 pm
That is good!! I read recently that the expression came from the time when the father had first use of the bathwater, followed by wife, children and baby last. By that time the water was dirty and the danger was the baby might be lost in the filthy water.
January 3, 2014 at 10:43 am
Don’tknowwhattothinkanymore, Could you please share any other comments Scott Brown made in his letters? As someone who is not only his mailing list, it has been very perplexing to not hear any public remarks from him regarding the situation. Thank you.
January 3, 2014 at 8:33 pm
TW and Jen posted the letter in its entirety in an earlier post. I was at the NCFIC Worship God conference on Oct 31 and was surprised that there was no VF booth set up in the vender hall. NOTHING was said about DP’s resignation even though it had been published on the day before the conference began. Since I was busy packing I did not know of the scandal. The only comment he made was one made in passing of “since we (NCFIC) split with VF.” I was curious about that statement and googled VF when I returned home from the conference. To my great surprise I was directed to DP’s resignation statement. I could not believe that SB did not make any statement about the resignation at the conference. No request for prayer for his “fallen hero.” Surely the 2000 people in attendance at that conference would have been the most sympathetic and eager to forgive and believe the “repentance” statement. Yet NOTHING was said. I just find that odd.
January 3, 2014 at 9:16 pm
MomT, it’s only odd if there is something to hide.
January 4, 2014 at 8:05 am
Thank you for sharing. I am not able to find where they posted the letter in its entirety. Could you please tell me where it is? Thank you.
January 3, 2014 at 3:57 am
I must confess that I have been a lurker on this blog for several months now. Like other posters, I came across Jen’s blog several years ago and dismissed it. I am eating crow now. Until recently you could find many Vision Forum products in my home; needless to say, those have mysteriously disappeared over the last couple of weeks.
Even before the DP scandal, my husband and I were becoming nauseated with the VF vision for the family. Every homeschool conference I attended would have speakers whose businesses were perfect, whose homes were perfect, whose children were perfect,….yada yada yada. Listening to men like Kevin Swanson, I began to feel guilt about my husband not having his own business where our sons could work alongside him. Talking to certain ladies at church I began to chant the mantra that our daughter couldn’t go to college or work outside our home. I began to live in fear of the “world” and began to trust in formulas that would lead my children down the road to the “perfect life”.
One of my eye-opening moments was attending a church near us pastored by one of the VF board members. He was very gracious; the women in his life were not. As soon as they found out I was not skirts only, they snubbed me like I had the plague. I later learned that they consider anything other than skirts to be sin. Since then other moments have presented themselves to show both my husband and I that we do not ever want to let “rules” rule our life. Our family does not have to fit into some man-made mold.
When I first heard about the DP scandal, I was angry. I couldn’t believe all the years I had listened to DP and men like him and felt guilt because my family wasn’t like theirs. Then it dawned on me that I don’t want my family to be like theirs! All I feel now is relief and thankfulness to God for saving us from going too far down that road. For my family it has been freeing. Like I said in a Facebook post not long ago- I feel like Mel Gibson in the movie Braveheart when he yelled, “Freedom!” My prayer is that this will wake up other families to freedom also. Thank you, Jen, for shining a light into all of this!
January 3, 2014 at 7:22 am
Welcome, Cindy Lacy! FREEDOM indeed!
January 4, 2014 at 9:41 pm
Is the thought that it is really only acceptable to be in business for yourself (vs. working a job) a part of what Doug Phillips and his group taught? I recall reading where Greg Harris (Josh Harris’s father CLC Pastor use to be part of Sovereign Grace Ministries) taught the same thing about how you should own your own business.
What I also always thought was so strange about Greg Harris teaching what he did was the he found a niche selling home schooling materials that few would be able to find. When Greg Harris and family traveled on weekends it was combining business and Christian fellowship. Most people in business for themselves wouldn’t have this type of a business that allowed the two to mix so much.
January 5, 2014 at 2:35 pm
Yes. VF did teach that. We bought their entrepreneurial bootcamp set which didn’t help at all. Kevin Swanson is also a big proponent of the idea. We also received a lot of pressure from our church family to go into business for ourselves when my husband lost his job. My husband is a professional, and the work we were considering (office cleaning) would have brought in less money if we could have gotten it off the ground. A lot of guilt, on my end, with knowing that my sons couldn’t work side by side with their dad. It also didn’t help that most of our former church family dads were working from home (although most of them were barely making it).
January 7, 2014 at 12:16 pm
Cindy: Did Phillips explicitly teach that one should work for themselves? Or was it more subtle? I ran across this type of teaching a few years back. They said Abraham was the example. But then also said that it was not required but was the best work method to follow. This is a form of nascent legalism. It is a major way in which these views are transmitted without overtly saying “if you do not work for yourself you are in sin and/or an immature Christian, etc.”.
BTW: Abraham worked for himself and over 318 men worked for him! (fighters, Gen. 14:14). And that does not includes the shepherds, man-servants, etc. Looks like entrepreneurialism was a minority in the OT.
January 7, 2014 at 1:55 pm
I would have to say that it was a more subtle “suggestion”. If I remember correctly, Kevin S. was more “in your face” about it; however, I have acquired a bad taste in my mouth for that man so I may be letting my feelings about him cloud my memory. I can say that the guilt from not having our own business and my husband having to work in the “world” was sometimes overwhelming. However, I could never think of an idea to peddle to the homeschool community; maybe that was the problem! 🙂
January 7, 2014 at 2:05 pm
lalacy: You wrote: “I can say that the guilt from not having our own business and my husband having to work in the “world” was sometimes overwhelming.”
That is a sign of virtual legalism. Phillips was an expert in this approach that I describe in detail here. I note people positively responding to my analysis of this subtle form of legalism. I am glad that what I wrote helps clarify the subtle nature of this nascent legalism. But this imposed guilt is not unique to h/s. I grew up with it as I detail somewhat in my response to Joyce’s article.
This being a website about all things Doug, perhaps someone who knew him and/or his “ministry” could verify if my take on his subtle and rarely explicit approach to adding to God’s law is accurate. In the articles and talks I have analyzed, I think he mastered this approach.
January 7, 2014 at 4:12 pm
Shawn, yes, I think you have nailed it on the head perfectly. I have always called them the “unwritten rules,” but the tremendous amount of pressure to comply with these rules was not always very subtle. I would like to address this in more detail in an article soon, so I will check out your articles regarding nascent legalism. Thank you for your input.
January 7, 2014 at 2:02 pm
To go along with this topic, I just received a special invitation from Scott B. about a Family Economics Conference. Sorry for any confusion about my two names; somehow my email got replaced by my name! Hope it’s OK to post the letter here. A lot of fear mongering about the state of the economy going on.
It is my privilege to invite you to join me at the 2014 Family Economics & Mentorship Conference on March 27-29 in Denver, CO. NCFIC families registering by January 15th will receive a special family rate of $149 â€“ $50 off the regular fee.
Every day we read about the rise and fall of corporations and economies. Youth unemployment/underemployment for high school grads is double what it was in 2001â€”over 80%! College grad underemployment is over 50% â€“ an all-time high. America carries $200 trillion in liabilities now, and according to a leading economist of the day, â€œThe country is in worse fiscal shape by many miles than Detroit.” As we consider these and many other realities, it is not difficult to conclude that the future of our macro-economy looks bleak.
But we are hopeful and excited about the future of the family economy! Join us at the 2014 Family Economics & Mentorship Conference where we will look carefully at what it means to work, give, learn, and live together in a unified household economy. While politicians are positioning for power and bankers scheme on the future of the world financial markets, we’re preparing families to grab a hammer and anvil and forge fruitful household economies for the kingdom of God!
Through the powerful speaker lineup, the interactive panel discussions, and the opportunity for one-on-one encouragement, you will be equipped to take the next steps in incorporating a Biblical vision for your family’s economics, education, and life preparation on all levels.
January 7, 2014 at 2:05 pm
The speakers for the conference include Scott Brown, Kevin Swanson, Allan Carlson, Dave Tucker, and Erik Weir. Know some but not all of them.
January 7, 2014 at 2:22 pm
Here are the sponsors of this conference: http://www.familyeconomics.com/denver-conference/sponsors/
Generations with Vision, Christian Home Educators of Colorado (CHEC), AME, Sermon Audio, Cornerstone Bullion
What people do *not* know: Generations with Vision (GV) is part of CHEC. AME is part of CHEC. Cornerstone Bullion is run by a man who used to work for CHEC and GV (and is still close with the board). The conference was run under GV the previous years. Which is to say it was run by CHEC.
Want to know how questionable views are propagated? Just use different organizational names to support the same causes. I suppose if I had access to money and an inclination toward propagandist techniques I could start a Save-America-with-My-Vision organization too.
January 5, 2014 at 3:38 pm
That isn’t surprising that VF taught this mentality that one should only be in business for themselves. It was easy for Doug Phillips to teach this when he had found a niche selling to Christians similar to Greg Harris (Josh Harris’s dad) did.
I imagine there a lot of professionals making 6 figure incomes that don’t have the aptitude for running their own business and if they tried would not nearly make what they did with their professional job. The other item is that most who are in business for themselves usually work a lot of hours (60 plus hours a week is not unheard of or usually typical).
I imagine DP with his interns that he could get and not pay much didn’t have to work nearly those hours. A shame he thinks everyone can find this niche and is the only way to support your family.
January 7, 2014 at 2:57 pm
Wow! lalacy, that is an interesting letter with very interesting statistics! Talk about some fear mongering! I wonder where they got the numbers. If the numbers they wrote were even close to being true unemployment would be so much higher!
According to the Bureau of Labor Statistics (I know I am wrong, I went to a government website for statistics, 10 lashes) 😉 – Nov 2013 for civilian population – less than HS diploma unemployment rate (UR) 10.8%; HS grad UR: 7.3%; Some college and/or associate degree UR: 6.4%; BS/BA or higher UR: 6.4%. http://www.bls.gov/news.release/empsit.t04.htm In Jan 2003 (the letter states 2001 but I am not going to dig that far) less than HS was 8.8%, HS 5.2%, some college or AS: 4.7%; BS/BA or higher: 3.0%
And the failure rate for a small business is high. A statistic from CNN in July 2012: 45% – of new businesses established in 2004 were still around in 2009. (http://www.cnn.com/2012/07/13/politics/small-business-btn/index.html) I looked for a stat on census or other government sites and I would have had to do all the calculation. I am going to trust that the stat CNN came up is close to true.)
As others have said time and time again, we all have to research information and not just take what a leader says as “truth.”
As steve240 states a lot of people will make more money working for someone else because they don’t have the aptitude to run their own business. I would say majority of any young adults that are recent graduates of high school (any HS) aren’t ready to run their own business.
January 7, 2014 at 4:19 pm
Maureen, until last week, my job was to interview people for the Census Bureau to obtain the data you posted in your comment. Knowing how we get that data, I would say those are very accurate numbers.
January 3, 2014 at 10:16 am
You said above: “Doug Phillips is disqualified because he is not the husband of one wife (1 Tim 3:2).”
Will you please explain? I was not aware that DP is a bigamist.
January 3, 2014 at 11:01 am
Curios, the above verse that TW quoted is referring to sexual purity. An elder or Pastor must be above reproach in the area of sexual purity.
January 3, 2014 at 11:48 am
In a functional and practical sense Doug Phillips lived with two wives for over 10 years. He never legally married her, and so he can’t be legally accused of bigamy. Cassandra “served him” (his words), and serviced him. Many keep asking “how far did it go?”, as in did the sex include Tab-A in Slot-B. I suppose it’s conceivable that Doug stopped short of coitus, but that’s a real stretch. Even taking coitus off the table leaves a lot of wiggle room for plenty of other sexual acts.
As I stated in another article, Doug promised Cassandra marriage and children, even though he’s already married. He’s opposed to divorce for any reason, which means that he’d never divorce Beall so that he could marry only Cassandra. This only leaves a few options:
1). Doug Phillips never had any intention of making good on his promises of marrying Cassandra. He lied to and defrauded Cassandra to use her for multiple years for no other purpose than for his sexual and emotional gratification.
2). Doug Phillips did intend to marry Cassandra and was waiting for the opportune time of doing so without losing practically all of his patrons. Since he’s already now lost practically all his patrons anyway, now would be the ideal time for him to make good on his promises to Cassandra. In Texas he could easily get away with taking a second wife by having a simple religious ceremony without a marriage license. As I understand it this is fairly common already at BCA and within “the community” (marrying without a marriage license).
3). Doug Phillips avoids being accused of bigamy were Beall to meet an untimely demise, thereby freeing him to remarry.
There is no excuse now for anyone at this point not being aware that Doug Phillips is a pathological liar. As such the first scenario is the most likely one. However, this doesn’t exclude the possibility of option 2, and there are some who argue that Doug Phillips should go ahead to make the full extent of his Patriarchal ambitions official and become a polygamist by formalizing marriage with Cassandra rather than continuing with his charade. Option 3 is a concern that has been expressed to Jen and I privately by a number of people. We’re relieved to know that Doug Phillips has moved into another San Antonio area home, rather than fleeing to Peru or Kenya or some other third world country.
January 3, 2014 at 12:02 pm
Beall , IMO is *at risk*. She most likely does not feel that she has any options and does not want to *lose* her children to the threaten-er. Or perhaps she will develop some *illness* and DP would become the pathetic widower, like RCjr. Stress has been showing on Beall for several years. DP has not been loving his wife. He is an arrogant covenant breaker.
January 3, 2014 at 3:10 pm
I don’t get it. Why does a gal (the other woman) think that the guy who was unfaithful to the wife of his covenant EVER think that he would be faithful to HER ?????????? He has proven his lack of self-control and utter disrespect for God.
January 4, 2014 at 12:50 pm
actually since a little bit before all this hit the fan, Beall has been coloring her hair, doing different stuff with her hair, lost a ton of weight and started doing triathlons etc. Pay close attention to some of these little signs. She also took a few trips w/o Doug with the girls last spring to Europe etc…….
January 4, 2014 at 12:53 pm
Not to mention the bright red nail polish. I thought that was a no no.
January 4, 2014 at 6:14 pm
I noticed the change in hair color, too, from going back in the archives in the VF Blog.
January 3, 2014 at 1:22 pm
IMO, #1 sounds very likely. Look at the ages of his children. Cassandra could have been used as a way not to have children every year like other quiverfull families that have far more children. If Cassandra was used in this capacity then Beall may have turned a blind eye to the situation because it helped her not to have as many children.
January 3, 2014 at 2:23 pm
…and/or allowing her to be able to ‘live in the lap of luxury’.
January 3, 2014 at 3:13 pm
Well, this just gave me a thought. Either DP and Cassandra didn’t “go all the way” or they were using something to prevent a pregnancy which would just be yet another hypocrisy.
January 3, 2014 at 3:32 pm
Beall must have a bunch of reasons for not wanting to pretend she enjoys the nookie nookie with Doug anymore. Once you’ve had to bear eight children and you know hubby is a horny douchebag wouldn’t it be a wonderful relief to Beall not to have to fulfill her conjugal duties anymore? I think Doug and Beall just had an understanding. Don’t ask me for sex anymore and you can have your mistress.
January 3, 2014 at 4:01 pm
Thinking, I think they did go all the way and they did use birth control. Doug taught against the pill but I don’t think he ever said that it was wrong to use a sheath. I could see him rationalizing a sheath and going all the way because technically his wee wee wouldn’t be in direct contact with her vee vee. The biblical Patriarchs of old “knew her in the biblical sense” because they didn’t use a sheath. But Doug didn’t “know her” because he used a sheath.
January 3, 2014 at 2:58 pm
TW do you know if Doug and Cassandra are still together right now or if she has broken free?
January 3, 2014 at 3:05 pm
She finally came to her senses and realized there was no future with Doug. But don’t take that as though she’s “broken free.” She and her family are still very active in “the community.” In other words they’re still caught up in the BCA cult-ure. It’s where all their friends are and they may have few if any friends outside of the cult. For that reason, and others, I believe that if Doug offered now to marry her it’s likely she’d say yes.
January 3, 2014 at 4:32 pm
TW are Cassandra and her family still attending BCA?
January 3, 2014 at 8:20 pm
Cassandra and her family at present don’t wish to be publicly seen around Doug Phillips, so as I understand it they’re not spending much time these days at BCA. But they have several other church options in “the community”, of which there are a total of four.
January 3, 2014 at 11:48 pm
SO then things have changed with Cassandra. Because in the last articles/following comments, it SURE sounded like she had seen the light, wanted nothing to do with him, and wanted ALL the truth to come out. Am I right?
January 4, 2014 at 12:46 pm
January 3, 2014 at 4:32 pm
TW are Cassandra and her family still attending BCA?
No Cassandra and her family left BCA with several other families about a year ago. They go to a different church in that Area but further out. From what I understand, someone associated with DP tried to bully her/them there through the leadership, and the leadership put a stop to it & didn’t let it happen.
January 4, 2014 at 1:23 pm
So, if Cassandra & her family left 1 year ago, they still were together at that time?
January 5, 2014 at 2:59 pm
If you are looking for a timeline Coriene, the family left in January. They were caught in January & in February. So I am not sure when exactly she stopped having contact with him. BUT she was in a wedding where he was in attendance (and several of his kids were in) on October 19th
January 3, 2014 at 10:55 am
TW and/or Jen,
Again, thank you for exposing this man. There was a time I was taken in by all of DP’s ideals, because he promised the perfect family was an attainable thing on this earth. Though THANKFULLY I had already seen how unBiblical many of his ideas are (after all, where do we find a perfect family presented to us in Scripture?), this scandal led me to find out about your stories, as well as all of the other things he is guilty of. It is hard for me to believe that the ENTIRE time I was swayed by this man, he was having an adulterous relationship with a vulnerable young woman, among other things. I have thought long and hard about how on earth it was possible for him to go on preaching and teaching, while living this double life. I have thought of one plausible explanation, and wondered if you would consider it tenable.
I am close friends with many people who have been impressed by his movement, but one particular family, whose members are more followers of Sproul Jr. than DP, but who hold basically the same ideals: patriarchy, homeschooling as the only way of life, pro-South, agrarian, anti-government (basically conspiracy theorists), Federal Vision, etc. (They are close with many influential people in this movement, and have started a local church in Sproul Jr’s “denomination.”) One thing I remember them spouting off back in the day is that the Bible never actually says polygamy is wrong. Though the Bible does say elders should be “husbands of one wife,” in their eyes that didn’t mean that the OT patriarchs were in sin when they carried on with multiple women. Of course this goes back to the ideal that we should have as many children as possible to populate the earth for Jesus, or whatever. Think of how many children we could have if Christian men were allowed to have more than one wife. And the example of David, who was called a man after God’s own heart – though he had many (MANY) ladies “on the side”, as well as multiple wives. This is also consistent with men who view women as property and signs of God’s favor, instead of as human beings who are co-heirs with Christ. I wonder if you ever came across these same thoughts while you were more closely affiliated with DP? Do you think maybe, deep down, he didn’t think it was wrong to have a gal on the side, but considered it more his right as a patriarch? Maybe that’s how he was able to sleep at night WHILE still preaching and teaching to thousands. If, in fact, my suspicion is true (and there may be no way to ever really know), he probably knew if he ever came OUT with this teaching, he would be crucified by the mainstream church (and lose a lot of money)…which is why as far as I know, he never admitted these beliefs in public. ANYWAY, this is pure speculation. I am not even sure if it is okay to ask. But it is one of the only reasons I can come up with that would explain how he could possibly go on being in the spotlight and continuing his ministry, while at the same time having this relationship. It might also explain why Beal remained silent about the issue. Could it be, in their hearts, they are “closet polygamists”? You would know far better than I, as I have never had personal relationships with them. I just have lots of personal relationships with people who follow their cultish way of life.
The only other reason I can come up with is that DP is a complete and utter fraud in EVERY SENSE of the word, who in no way believed the things he preached, but did it solely to manipulate people, make money off of them, and control others. I really don’t know what to believe. Either one could be true – or maybe there are other reasons I just haven’t thought of yet.
One thing I do know? This man, and others like him, have made a complete mockery of Christ. These teachings do NOT reveal to us the heart of God revealed in Scripture. Thankfully there are a few brave souls who are willing to expose this wolf in sheep’s clothing, and thankfully we can remember the promise that vengeance is the Lord’s. He WILL avenge those sheep who have been oppressed by DP (as well as other pastors connected to him who are equally despicable).
January 3, 2014 at 12:18 pm
Please see my reply to Curious, above, for answers to a few of your questions.
“I have thought long and hard about how on earth it was possible for him to go on preaching and teaching, while living this double life.” For those of us who know Doug, and who understand the psychopathy of narcissists and sociopaths, it’s really not all that difficult to understand. The only thing that makes it hard to understand is approaching Doug Phillips with the false presuppositions that he is a regenerate, born again, Spirit-filled Christian. Once one rejects that false presupposition and adopts the correct presupposition that Douglas W. Phillips, Esq. is a narcissistic sociopath, a pathological liar and a wolf in sheep’s clothing then it all makes perfect sense.
The same exact thing can be said, and has been said, for RC Sproul Jr, whom you also mentioned in your comment. See Ghirard’s comments attesting that RC Sproul Jr. spanked his wife, abused his infant children, and gets drunk. Another clear case of a preacher living a double life. “This man, and others like him, have made a complete mockery of Christ.” I couldn’t agree more.
I’m not one for guilt by association, but then there is also the old truism of “Birds of a feather flock together.” How many of Doug Phillips’ friends and associates live double lives?
January 3, 2014 at 8:45 pm
“How many of DP’s friends and associates live double lives?”
Perhaps all of the people who are still his friends and associates? I wouldn’t be shocked if the guys who are laying low are doing so because they’re guilty of a double life as well, to one degree or another. Just conjecture of course, suggested with a broad brush, of course, but that’s usually how things roll with men like Doug.
January 5, 2014 at 5:41 am
A lot of the behavior exhibited by DP and his “yes men” is eerily close to the behavior found in Independent Fundamentalist Baptist Churches (IFB). Jack Hyles was one of the main leaders in that movement , boasting of the largest Sunday School in the world. He was a classic , narcissistic sociopath if there ever was one. It was revealed that he had a long running relationship with the church secretary for decades; yet he ran around preaching (more like screaming) about how men should keep their hair short , women should never wear pants, and husband/wife should have very strict and structured roles.
As they say there is nothing new under the sun, it appears that DP just repackaged those ideas and created a new vocabulary for the same old abusive and tired junk from the IFB.
January 3, 2014 at 2:41 pm
Have I got a story. My husband is still on the vf email. I had unsubscribed immediately after the fallout. I told him last I checked, the vf site was finally deactivated, at least you couldn’t buy anything. A few pages were there…blog, etc. He had not recd emails since the last discount before the 31st. However, today…
He recd an email advertising a book about George Washington with the vision forum blessing and review. I wanted to see if it went to the website but it didn’t. It goes to Christian reader.com. the address window says clickbank which means the links are associate ads for making a commission. I do this myself and recognized the type of link. Now, I am here to tell you…this is spam through and through. That is low. This business had announced official closure and now they are marketing other companies. I find it kind of humorous actually.
January 3, 2014 at 3:02 pm
Thanks for the “heads up.” I just unsubscribed from Christian Reader.
January 3, 2014 at 5:51 pm
It is possible they are not a part of this. I hope I did not imply they were. I just was mildly irritated vf still had the audacity to solicit. Another funny thing, you can still subscribe to their website…just no products.
Oddly enough, there is a 2014 vf catalogue with new artwork and everything. When I checked a few weeks ago, there was not one. It had a broken link only. Strange things a brewin’.
January 3, 2014 at 8:04 pm
I received the same email today with the following message at the bottom:
“This e-mail was sent as a special service of The Vision Forum, Inc…. © 2014 The Vision Forum, Inc., 4719 Blanco Road, San Antonio, Texas 78212. All Rights Reserved.”
I have previously received many emails from Vision Forum promoting various businesses — JMCremp, Heritage Defense, even Vision Forum Ministries with the same message at the bottom with the exception of the 2014 copyright.
Perhaps they are just fulfilling an obligation to provide this service until a contract runs out?
January 3, 2014 at 9:22 pm
Esther, yes, it could be fulfilling obligations (contracts), or it could be an easy way to make a few bucks, through affiliate marketing.
January 5, 2014 at 12:26 am
Good move, Angela!!
I had been thinking that I hope people refuse to countenance Christian companies from doing DP (&Co.) a favor by continuing to buy from him.
I realize that many have stock on their hands, but to buy up more, after all this? That would be (IMO) really, really wrong.
January 5, 2014 at 8:39 am
Thanks Zooey! We all need to take a stand against this sort of thing regardless of how small it might seem to be. 🙂
January 3, 2014 at 7:45 pm
Actually Vision Forum inc has never announced closure, on Vision Forum Ministries which from what I can see has closed every website except Jonathon Parks.
January 3, 2014 at 7:53 pm
Sarah, and Blue B…DP sermons ! and more :p yuck
January 3, 2014 at 8:37 pm
Blue Behemoth is owned by Vision Forum Inc. and it doesn’t look like they are closing anytime soon. They seem to have lots of stock. Feel free to email them to let them know how you feel under the contact us section. Jonathan Park however only links to Vision Forum when you click on their store items and is showing no stock. If Visiom Forum stock ever disappears it will be months from now. Lots of websites are still selling the stock they already had.
January 3, 2014 at 9:15 pm
Blue Behemoth is all downloadable media, so they will never “run out.” It is perfect for residual income.
January 3, 2014 at 8:17 pm
Actually I rec’d an email prior to unsubscribing from vf that said they were closing their doors Dec 31. It came with the liquidation emails. I could have misread something though.
January 3, 2014 at 9:24 pm
Sarah, this was pretty much VFI’s “announcement:”
January 4, 2014 at 12:04 am
Here is the 2014 catalog – complete with new announcements and new products. My assumption is that somebody didn’t believe this was going down.
Click to access download.pdf
January 4, 2014 at 9:07 am
TW and Jen, We went to the 2014 catalog link BBB just listed below last night: .http://catalog.visionforum.com/2014/offline/download.pdf Did a little further research and found this on Facebook: Vision Forum 2014 Family Catalog Mystery https://www.facebook.com/groups/320131268127889/ This is a closed group but you can see who the members are.
Obviously something is going on behind the scenes because 45 devout VF followers as of 8:50 CT on January 4, 2014 have already joined this closed group!
So does anyone know if this is for real and they are actually still in business and going to be running somewhere else? Are they actually selling all these folks products? We saw the Duggars, Moorecrafts, and folks from the local community pictured. Were they informed and asked to have their pictures and products placed in this catalog in light of all that has been made public? I can’t really imagine some are judging by their public comments but I do not know if there was some sort of legality or contract for the sale of goods they are not able to get out of to have their name and product taken out. Maybe they are shocked as we are to see this and all that is still in it. Or do they really still endorse all this stuff? I am very confused about all this now. Or is this just a mistake to have this come out and was scheduled but there won’t be anything really for sale. Looks as if the administrator of the FB group does not thinks that is so. Do you have any info and answers? Thanks!
January 4, 2014 at 9:24 am
Actually I think BBB’s post may be above.
January 4, 2014 at 10:14 am
My guess is this… the 2014 catalog was worked on all throughout 2013, long before the 10/30/2013 resignation of DP, it seems reasonable that the PDF is hanging out on the (still up) VF servers. The catalog had another one of those ‘mystery hunts’ and it looks like the private FB group was setup for those who had participated in past hunts. Also of interest, MOST of the 45 people on the list we added to the group by one lady, who is not (as far as I can tell) affiliated with VF directly.
Interesting? Yes, but I don’t think it points to a secret/shadow company that’s still up and running. Not saying that it refutes such a thing but I think there are more reasonable explanations.
January 4, 2014 at 10:24 am
The Mystery Contest started Oct. 19th, 2013 and was to Dec. 18th with winners announced Jan. 10th, 2014.
January 4, 2014 at 2:41 pm
How ironic that the hero of the mystery game is a young woman… who is said to have traveled to Germany to seek the lost library. From the Botkin girls’ video on adventurous daughters, I would have thought that an approved version of feminine adventure would be to sit at home and research for a brother who did all the exotic travel part of the adventure…
January 4, 2014 at 2:41 pm
(watching that video, I had the first inkling that I had been sold a bill of goods)
January 4, 2014 at 11:01 pm
This is a reply to NotFooledAnymore below (it won’t let me reply down there). I am starting to question the Duggars choice of friends. They were very close to Doug Philipps and they were also very close to the Voice of the Martyrs guy (Who had an affair with a young girl and then killed himself when the news started to come out).
January 5, 2014 at 2:25 pm
For some reason the Voice of the Martyr incident completely bypassed me. I still receive their monthly magazine. Are there any Christian organizations left that we can trust? This is all so disheartening.
January 5, 2014 at 4:09 pm
I can understand your apprehensions. I get the VOM magazine and find it very informative. However, I’m not as generous in my giving to VOM as I was when Richard Wurmbrand was still alive. The legacy of Wurmbrand may not be carried forward any better than have the legacies of other godly men when they have passed away and left their ministries in the hands of successors. Clearly Tom White the pedophile was no Richard Wurmbrand. One positive thing we can say is that the VOM board didn’t engage in a cover up, at least as far as anyone can tell.
RC Sproul Jr’s name has come up here in the last few days. He makes for an interesting case study, not unlike Tom White. I’ve recently wondered what sort of a legacy RC Sproul Sr will leave when he passes on. Will he put Ligonier Ministries in the hands of RC Jr? If he does it seems likely RC Jr will ultimately destroy his father’s ministry and legacy.
January 4, 2014 at 11:18 pm
I am still seeing the catalogue – and the young lady on the front looks vaguely familiar – is she a family member? Also – if you look in the background of the cover art – the picture hanging far right looks like DP. I miss the catalogue – it was done so well. I actually studied the layout many times. They had an awesome promo dept.
January 5, 2014 at 2:54 pm
You state that the Duggars are “very close to Doug Philliips”, as well as having been “very close” to Tom White (Voice of the Martyrs). Do you know the Duggars? Maybe you do…but probably not. Our family has visited with them at numerous activities and conferences (not VF related in any way) and one of our children stayed in their home and traveled with them for a time. We would definitely only consider ourselves “acquaintances,” but I’m comfortable saying that the Duggars are the “real deal” and would classify them as one of the most gracious, ministry-minded families I’ve ever come across. I think it’s a reach to say that they are/were necessarily “friends” with either man. They desire to teach their children to serve, therefore took their family to Voice of the Martyrs to do just that. I’m guessing that Doug Phillips invited them to speak at VF events…they simply accepted the invitation. I’m sensing that you’re trying to stir the pot against the Duggars.
January 5, 2014 at 2:55 pm
I am still seeing the catalogue – and the young lady on the front looks vaguely familiar – is she a family member?
Yes BBB, it’s Doug & Beall’s daughter. I think her name is Liberty.
January 6, 2014 at 12:21 pm
The Duggars practice the teachings of Bill Gothard who many claim is the “godfather” of patriarchy. They have practiced and endorsed patriarchy, quiverful and courtship *in* the right crowds for years. To the general public, their persona is “normal, everyday” people.
Just because they make patriarchy/quiverful/courtship look “pretty” doesn’t mean they are teaching the truth.
As for VOM, it has had its previous issues with promoting books on contemplative prayer and Emergent Church authors which is another rabbit trail about false teaching within the body of Christ, but that’s not my main beef with them. Their “statement” that used the words “allegations, alleged” casted a shadow of doubt on what was done to the little girl. It was also their “quick” sweep-it-all under the rug that made me uncomfortable with this ministry and why I quit supporting it….which is my prerogative. http://www.persecution.com/public/newsroom.aspx?story_ID=NDk2&ministory_ID=Njg%3d&clickfrom=bWluaXN0b3JpZXM%3d
The father of this little girl reached out to Wade Burleson after reading the pastor’s “open letter” on the Internet, addressed to the little girl that Tom White abused. The father gave Pastor Burleson details of what had happened removing any doubt that the abuse was “alleged” …http://www.wadeburleson.org/2012/04/tom-white-abuse-vom-and-power-of.html
I agree with Pastor Burleson…the most tragic aspect in this situation was the abuse of the little girl by Tom White…NOT his suicide. The sorrow for Tom White’s death, more than the molesting of a little girl, is what I saw among VOM as well as Christians locally and nationally.
The “good” that came from all of this? Little girls are safe now from Tom White. Matt. 18:6 affirms my thoughts-> “6 But whoso shall offend one of these little ones which believe in me, it were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and that he were drowned in the depth of the sea.”
January 6, 2014 at 10:30 am
I got the same email.
I also got one today from “VF Customer Service” selling Leathercrafts. The link takes you to Tandy Leathercraft. With the same disclosure at the very bottom of the email:
This e-mail was sent as a special service of The Vision Forum, Inc. If you received this e-mail from a friend and would like to subscribe, click here. You may update your address here, or unsubscribe. Please send questions and comments through our contact page.
© 2014 The Vision Forum, Inc., 4719 Blanco Road, San Antonio, Texas 78212. All Rights Reserved.
Very interesting to me!
January 6, 2014 at 10:32 am
That was in response to Bbb’s post above.
January 3, 2014 at 5:47 pm
Sadly, this is all too familiar. We were caught up in a church scandal which was dealt with in a similar fashion. The predator was a seemingly-influential (physician) member of the church who was protected and ‘counseled’ for months. His carefully-groomed victim was cast aside in order to ‘redeem the sinner.’ The victim came forward in order to protect other youngsters in the church, our child in particular.
The language employed in the BCA statement is almost identical to that which was read from the pulpit once it all came to light. “Redeem the sinner” and “Preserve the Peace, Purity and Unity of the Church” were frequently used explanations for the months and months of hushed explanations for this man’s continued presence in our midst. Prior to it all hitting the fan, the predator was permitted to take Communion and was allowed to attend during a time when the victim was home on Spring Break, despite requests to the contrary. Evil was permitted and protected.
Prior to the truth coming out, I was counseled to “trust the men” and keep my mouth shut, as speaking of this terrible thing was “gossip.” Warning others that a predator was in our midst was verboten. To my shame, I kept my mouth shut. Ultimately, the predator got by with a meaningless excommunication followed by a very quiet departure. He is still a family physician with no stain on his record, whatsoever.
A church that conceals and coddles adultery seems to invite greater sexual sin. The key elder ‘managing’ the issue was well-known as an adulterer. Allegedly, he repented and resumed his important leadership role, The cloud of perversion over this church is breathtaking.
I am grateful we were set free, despite the immense damage this did to our faith and our identities as Christians. I am grateful to know that restoration is possible through Christ, our Lord and Savior. I hope the abusers will be brought to true repentance. I hope, most of all, that all whose lives have been destroyed by this and other abuses will regain their faith in the only true Healer.
January 4, 2014 at 8:08 am
So sorry for your pain but glad you and others got free. Hard to find a church in sa that is ‘reformed ‘ but not tainted like this . My heart goes out to you and your family
January 3, 2014 at 7:51 pm
Tw…you said something in your response to curious that seems to be new news…are you saying that some of these patriarchs at bca/in the community have actually taken second wives and are not theoretical polygamists, but actual polygamists?
January 3, 2014 at 8:15 pm
What I said was: “In Texas he could easily get away with taking a second wife by having a simple religious ceremony without a marriage license. As I understand it this is fairly common already at BCA and within ‘the community’.” I probably could have stated that more clearly. Marriages performed without marriage licenses are fairly common in “the community.” Polygamy is not common, or even known of at all.
January 3, 2014 at 9:18 pm
TW, there is one polygamy situation that has arisen out of the community, although it is not sanctioned by the community.
January 3, 2014 at 11:45 pm
Jen, re:”there is one polygamy situation that has arisen out of the community, although it is not sanctioned by the community”.
So they just keep quiet about it ?
January 4, 2014 at 10:48 am
D2D, no, I think everyone knows about it.
January 4, 2014 at 12:07 pm
Jen, Re: “D2D, no, I think everyone knows about it.”
Do you know what are the members or “leaders” of the “community” doing about this sin, if anything? Do the “leaders” ever teach on this subject, either for or against?
January 4, 2014 at 12:52 pm
Jen, Is this in the local BCA community? Is there a link or link to the pictures. We have been so burned by this community I would really like to have more info so we don’t get misled by any others around here somehow, some way.Honestly we were BCA members, have lived in this community for many years and I do not know or have knowledge of knowing who this is and if I do I think I would like to know so we are not duped into anything again by others in this community as so much seems to be kept hush, hush until it is too late.
January 4, 2014 at 1:15 pm
“so much seems to be kept hush, hush until it is too late.” You’ve just made my point when I said that “Polygamy is not common, or even known of at all.” While polygamy isn’t common in “the community”, it has happened once that we know of. Yes, it’s been kept very hush hush. To my knowledge the one polygamous marriage is the only one so far in “the community.” Only the immediate family and a few close friends seem to know about it, which goes to show just how effectively the “no gossip” rule still works.
A concern that I have is that their model of courtship is resulting in many young people getting older and older with poor prospects for marriage. As the young ladies grow older they become more desperate to find a man. Some of them are marrying men that are far younger than they are. These young men often lack job experience and skills to be able to adequately provide for their new brides. They lack real world experience and they lack maturity.
The recent polygamous marriage may have occurred, at least in part, because the lady’s prospects were bad enough to cause her to get desperate. I think there’s legitimate cause for concern that this may turn into a trend.
January 4, 2014 at 2:08 pm
OK TW so should we be connecting the dots between the recent wedding,that has had much reference to DP and Cassandra here or are we way off? There is also an evident age difference between bride and groom I am just so tired of my kids and ourselves thinking okay so and so got married and maybe there is hope for some of these young gals to find out that we are and have been invited to weddings in the local area and not attended but have given gifts, etc.and just want to stop being duped as I do not want to support this kind of a sinful marriage. How are we supposed to know as we try to distance ourselves from this craziness and yet want to be discerning so as not to get duped anymore? I am getting so tired of all the shenanigans. Just wish all these people would just say it like it really is and go on with life as we just don’t know who is genuine and who is not any more. It is so sad.
January 4, 2014 at 3:50 pm
I didn’t have the recent wedding in mind that you’re referencing, so I’ll leave it to your imagination whether or not it fits the criteria of what I’m speaking of. It’s not my intention to be that specific. Rather, I’m speaking of an overall pattern and a problem which is trending from bad to worse.
I have nothing in particular against “courtship”, but I have a great deal against the way they’re doing it. It’s resulting in many young men and ladies going unmarried and then out of desperation they and/or their fathers are making some very reckless decisions.
Going right along with this is their method of arranged marriages in “the community.” Arranged marriages are the norm in many cultures, and they’ve been done successfully for many generations. But BCA-community arranged marriages are unlike anything else in the world, other than what you find in other sociological cult groups. Arranged marriages in India, for example, occur between families who have long known one another, sometimes for generations. Dads and moms get together with their close friends and arrange for the marriages of their sons and daughters while their children are still very young. The kids grow up together, knowing the entire time that when they’re old enough they’ll wed. This may seem odd to us, but to them it’s the norm. The point is the families know one another, as do the bride and groom, and they know one another well.
BCA-community arranged marriages have sometimes been arranged where the bride doesn’t know the groom, sometimes not even his name. She’s made to marry the young man of her father’s choice, sometimes under duress of the elder, and sometimes on very short notice, like in less than 30 days. She “agrees” because she’s been so conditioned (brainwashed) to “submit” to her father and elders that she does anything she’s “asked” to do.
I may be writing an article on this issue of arranged marriages, but it will be challenging to do so, even with not using real names. Too many people in “the community” will know who I’m speaking of. It wouldn’t be my intention to hurt anyone, but I feel very strongly that these sorts of cultish practices need to be exposed so they don’t become even more widespread.
January 4, 2014 at 4:00 pm
Thank you TW. I do see your point on the courtship problem and the arranged marriages/betrothals. We have witnessed several ourselves. We too are very concerned and have steered our children in a different direction from what we experienced at BCA.
January 3, 2014 at 9:00 pm
There was an earlier comment I think by Grace Alone about a site referred to as “SSB”…what does that stand for?
January 3, 2014 at 9:13 pm
SSB = Spiritual Sounding Board
January 4, 2014 at 12:58 am
TW and Jen,
Thank you for the articles and the time you have put into this. I certainly appreciate all of your work here.
January 4, 2014 at 6:26 am
I have been a Christan (and homeschooler) for 24 years in the Pacific Northwest and have attended non denomination, Baptist, Calvary Chapels, and Lutheran churches. I have never, ever, ever, have I heard of any believer here in the Pacific Northwest have to get any sort of letter or approval to go to another church. Isn’t that between the Lord and the family. Is this some sort of Texas thing? Is that normal for all churches in Texas? I am wondering if the is a Doug Phillips thing or a normal Christian practice in that area?
January 4, 2014 at 8:18 am
“Isn’t that between the Lord and the family.”
Yes. In most circumstances this is certainly the case with most churches.
” Is this some sort of Texas thing? Is that normal for all churches in Texas?”
No. This is not the norm for churches in Texas.
” I am wondering if the is a Doug Phillips thing or a normal Christian practice in that area?”
The issue is authoritarianism and domination. Control is the objective of people who practice church in this way. It is not grace based Christianity.
I have attended numerous churches across the Southwest, Midwest, and the Southeast. I have never had to ask permission to leave and join another church. The denominations have been mostly Baptist and Bible churches. Our family recently left a church in this area. I sat down with the pastor confidentially and we talked. There was no demands from either one of us. It was painful because it was a parting of the ways, but not damaging.
The issue at hand is grace versus legalism, authoritarianism, and domination.
January 4, 2014 at 11:43 am
The letter seems to be a Doug Phillips/Scott Brown thing. We attended one of their “churches” for a year, signed the “iron clad covenant,” and then left. The “elders (one leader, one yes-man, sound familiar?)” tried to remind us that we had signed the contract, and that we needed to be “released” by them, but I just sent them an email telling them we were through. They knew better than to try and push it with me, and sent an email to the rest of the group, telling them we were not abiding by the covenant, had no intention to, and that we were “released” by them. End of story. This multi – page “covenant” is, from what I can see, just another typical lawyer device to lock people in. Bottom line here is I ashcanned their paperwork when I saw their illegitimacy as leaders.
January 4, 2014 at 9:30 pm
Here is a link to Scott Brown’s church where he is the Elder. I wonder if he got this idea for the ‘covenant’ from Phillips. These covenants are clearly for keeping folks in line.
Below is a couple paragraphs that I find interesting from his ‘covenant.’ I guess they pull things out of the bible that serves their purpose. I find the second paragraph to be ironic in that Scott himself had to flee from Trinity Baptist to avoid church discipline. I guess since he didn’t have a ‘covenant’ to go by he didn’t feel compelled to stick around to repent and reconcile with those he offended. Instead he fled and choose to protect VFM from any negative publicity. Very bad decision on his part. Just saying.
From the ‘covenant.’
We will cultivate Christian sympathy in feeling and courtesy in speech; strive to avoid all scriptural prohibitions, such as tattling, backbiting and unrighteous anger; to refrain from speaking evil of one another; to be slow to take offense; to think the best of one another; and always ready for biblical reconciliation and mindful of the rules of our Savior to secure it without delay so far as it depends upon us. Psalm 19:14 Psalm 34:13-14, Eph. 4:29, I Peter 3:8-12, Matt 5:21-26, Titus 3:10, Prov 26:20-26
We will, if necessary, submit to biblically defined and regulated church discipline for the purpose of reconciliation with God and man and we accept that refusing to communicate or to flee is to usurp the power of the church and break this covenant. Matt. 18:15:20, Heb 12:11, 1 Cor 5:1-13, 1 John 2:19, 1 Timothy 1:20, 2 Cor 2:1-11, Luke 17:4
January 4, 2014 at 9:31 pm
Forgot the link to the whole thing. Sorry about that. http://hopebaptistchurch.info/membership-covenant/
January 4, 2014 at 11:05 pm
Why did Scott Brown have to flee from Trinity Baptist?
January 5, 2014 at 2:38 pm
Raymond249: http://ephesians511.wordpress.com/ It’s long and in depth but here are the details.
January 6, 2014 at 7:37 am
Regarding Scott Brown and Jason Dohm in this blog, http://ephesians511.wordpress.com/
There are one or two points I would have said or remember differently, but as a whole it is an accurate account of what happened, and I will add that since the split Hope Baptist has be fraught with issues similar to the ones being recorded on Jens blog, sex scandal (not involving leadership), excommunications, slander, clerical abuse, forced recounting and description of sin acts before the gathered body, and so on.
January 6, 2014 at 9:35 pm
Don: you mean like railroading someone because they stopped and got a Starbucks coffee on the way to church and they weren’t “keeping the Sabbath holy?” Like Pharisees? yeahhhhhhhhhh………like that
January 4, 2014 at 3:26 pm
Interesting discussion on only being able to leave DP’s church with permission. I don’t think Sovereign Grace Ministries practiced it to that extreme but they would use words like “loving pursuit” and that you should “leave well” (such as have leadership’s blessing to leave).
With “loving pursuit” if they felt you left the church as a means to avoid repenting of certain sin then they would warn other churches about this if they found out you were trying to become members of another church. For “leaving well” they taught that you should have the blessing of leadership to leave the group. It was discussed here:
It really isn’t surprising but C.J. Mahaney after teaching this concept for years didn’t “leave well” when he quickly transferred his church membership to another SGM Church after the falling out he had with CLC Leadership (attended Capitol Hill Baptist for an intermediate period). As it typical leaders don’t follow the rules they impose on others.
One thing groups will try and hold over your head is the loss of friendships if you don’t “leave well” is loss of friendships since you could be shunned. That really is an idle threat since usually with groups like this you loose your friendships as soon as you leave the group. One just has to realize that no matter how you leave most of your “friendships” in that group will end.
January 4, 2014 at 7:21 pm
Color me confused, but if you left a church because of bad doctrine, abuse, etc., why would you want to continue freindships with people who shun you and still hold to the mindset of the church you’re leaving?
January 4, 2014 at 7:30 pm
It’s hard when your children have friends there – easier to walk away as adults, but for kids, it’s pretty traumatic.
January 4, 2014 at 9:58 pm
Why not tell your children the truth of what’s going on AND find new “healthy” friendships for them? We did and we didn’t need therapy down the road. In fact, as adults, they are less apt to be caught up in false teaching and can use critical thinking skills/question what is not right/aligned with word of God.
January 4, 2014 at 10:06 pm
We did do that. We walked away. They do have new friends. But it was traumatic none the less.
January 4, 2014 at 11:01 pm
JAS: that’s good that you all walked away.
Maybe I’m different, but I look at everything as a life lesson that can be learned from. Our short time with a Gothard group was *very* educational, surreal at times, but nonetheless, educational.
January 7, 2014 at 4:30 pm
JAS: when you guys “walked away” and stopped going to BCA, did anyone call you and demand to know where you went? or what happened? were you punished in anyway because of it?
January 8, 2014 at 11:01 pm
@ Not surprised:
I’m not going to give any personal details at all about our leaving BCA. I’m sorry.
January 4, 2014 at 9:08 am
Transfer of membership in older denominations is/was common. Approval? NO. That is a control issue. Not typical anywhere in REAL Christian churches.
January 4, 2014 at 10:26 am
“Transfer of membership in older denominations is/was common. Approval? NO. That is a control issue. Not typical anywhere in REAL Christian churches.”
Excellent clarification. Transfer of membership by letter is still a practice in Baptist churches. This is not an approval issue though.
January 4, 2014 at 5:50 pm
Thank you everyone for clarifying. We have also left churches on good terms. Once we disagreed with our pastor on a certain issue that felt very important to us. We spoke to him about it and we decided to leave-but we remained friends with the pastor-even now 20 years later. I just can’t imagine a pastor or elders having so much control of lives. Shunning, calling other churches, and such just for disagreeing. I would never give any man or woman that much power over our family as that is just wrong. But I also have compassion for members that seem to be Christians but fell for a false leader. It is probably much more complex than I could imagine.
January 4, 2014 at 11:04 am
I know thus has probably been asked & answered , but do you know if Beall was in the Greece trip?
January 4, 2014 at 10:03 pm
Yes, Beall was on the Greece trip.
January 5, 2014 at 2:36 pm
does anyone have a link to the photos from the trip Beall had JUST with her girls, by themselves, to Europe this last year? I think it was flikr or photobucket.
January 4, 2014 at 12:28 pm
“The same exact thing can be said, and has been said, for RC Sproul Jr, whom you also mentioned in your comment. See Ghirard’s comments attesting that RC Sproul Jr. spanked his wife, abused his infant children, and gets drunk. Another clear case of a preacher living a double life.”
Note to RC Jr and other wife spankers, you’d probably enjoy reading this
January 4, 2014 at 1:01 pm
interesting that when I went to go search SB on Sermon audio, there’s a huge gap of sermons dating from March 13 through Nov 13!
January 4, 2014 at 2:18 pm
I think we should be careful taking one persons comments on as blog as fact. These are very serious accusations to be making against RC Sproul Jr.
January 5, 2014 at 1:58 pm
I agree with Sarah. These are very serious accusations, without support they should be disregarded and not repeated. I too was a part of the”community.” I know nothing of bigamy or “arranged marriages.” I am concerned that there is conjecture being presented as or assumed to be, fact..
January 5, 2014 at 2:20 pm
WaryBerean, so you were a member of “the community”? May I ask which church? If you were it calls into question how you could be unaware of these things. It amazes me how I who was never a member of “the community” could know so much more than most of its own current and former members. Then again it’s not really surprising at all. It’s just another confirmation that the BCA community is a cult.
Polygamy is now a fact in “the community”. Your not knowing about it (yet) doesn’t negate it as a fact but only serves to confirm just how cultish BCA and its sister churches are. I could post the name of the lady here who married into a polygamous family, but I’d rather not do so just to satisfy your curiosity. It’s already quite humiliating to her parents as it is.
Arranged marriages are also a fact in “the community”. Your not having heard about them (yet) doesn’t negate it in any way. Rather, it only serves to confirm how cultish BCA and its sister churches in “the community” are. I could post the names of the arranged marriages here, but I’d rather not do so just to satisfy your curiosity. However, as I’ve already stated, I’m giving serious consideration to writing an article on that subject. If I do so I’ll also change the names of everybody but the “pastors” and “elders” who are complicit. I’m also considering naming a few of the fathers who did the “arranging”.
January 5, 2014 at 2:36 pm
TW I was referring to accusations of wife spanking and child abuse made towards RC Sproul Jr.
January 5, 2014 at 3:50 pm
Yes, Sarah, I was quite aware of that. I wasn’t replying to you re: RC Sproul Jr and accusations about wife spanking, blanket training, drunkenness, etc. However, I’m content to leave the comments by Ghirard and Lindt stand. I’ve checked with several of my sources and they confirm that all of these things are true. They were all going to come out in his Presbyterian trial. Needless to say he begged and did everything he could to get out of having to go to trial so those things, and much more, didn’t become public. His Presbytery decided it would be best to forgo a trial, so after they defrocked him they released him and he fled to Doug Wilson’s CREC.
January 5, 2014 at 4:39 pm
Re: TW’s post:”I’ve checked with several of my sources and they confirm that all of these things are true. They were all going to come out in his Presbyterian trial.”
Thank you for verifying this information.
January 5, 2014 at 5:04 pm
WaryBerean, Yes many of these accusations are very serious. We were BCA members and saw all but the polygamy or bigamy and after all we saw I am sorry to say it would not surprise me a bit. that it did happen. Plain and simple Actually absolutely nothing surprises me anymore unfortunately from any of these big wig speakers, from BCA and this community. I don’t know how or what part of the “community” you were in but we for one as a family are so grateful to God to have escaped. Please don’t add insult to injury here on this blog by discounting what has been going on and all the harm it has done.This is very painful for many of us and this is just not needed here. Thank you.
January 5, 2014 at 5:39 pm
I’m way out here on the periphery of all this. (In a whole other part of the country). And I know of at least one arranged marriage for myslef.
And it makes me really sick, because the girl was never given a chance to say so much as “yea” or “nay”.
January 5, 2014 at 6:59 pm
We attended BCA. Granted, it was several years ago and we left over concerns we had at the time and heard many more things down the road. I know most of the people you have spoken of here, some of them quite well. Much of this I knew. We are also very close to a VF employee. But we have never heard a whisper about polygamy/arranged marriages, the accusations against Sproul Jr., or the 17 year old getting prgnant by a married member of the congregation. There was only one pregnant, unmarried young girl there as far as I know, and I had many conversations with her and her parents. That wasn’t the story I was told at all. And there was an ongoing custody dispute with the father at the time. Another teen. Not a Christian.
January 5, 2014 at 7:41 pm
I believe you when you say you haven’t heard these things. But that’s exactly why I refer to BCA and “the community” as a religious sociological cult. Tight information control is one of the indicia of a cult. Believe me, I get it. I used to be in a religious sociological cult myself. Problems are routinely concealed, ignored, or swept under the rug rather than being dealt with honestly and forthrightly, as they should be.
The 17 year old girl was, in fact, at BCA, and not one of the other churches in “the community”. It’s now being disputed whether or not the father was also a BCA member. Previously it was thought by my sources that the father was a BCA member, but now there’s some doubt. There is conflicting information on that point, so I’m going to concede that the father may have not been at BCA.
Doug Phillips and his elders are entirely responsible for causing such confusion in the first place by all the hush hush over who the father was. The entire time the girl was a member it was kept a virtual secret. This only served to confirm in many people’s minds that the father was probably a BCA member and that some powerful man was being protected by the elders, if it wasn’t an elder himself. Again, that’s not behavior consistent with a church but of a cult. They could have easily prevented all that by just announcing that the father wasn’t a BCA member.
January 5, 2014 at 8:37 pm
WaryBerean, the arranged marriage(s) and polygamy took place after we both left BCA apparently. However, I can verify that they are indeed true. I also am very good friends with someone from RC Jr’s church who also verifies that RC Jr. did indeed spank his wife and use blanket training on his babies, as well as numerous other despicable others unfitting for a believer.
January 5, 2014 at 9:13 pm
Thank you for verifying, Jen. I am so impressionable, as are many of my friends who are in these camps (from afar). It is just so good to know the truth about these men. It validates what my husband has been saying all along (he has always been very wary of these men, feeling they twist Scripture and also add to it), and it helps me not feel guilty for not seeing eye to eye with my friends who follow these “pastors” (as if an unordained elder and a defrocked pastor even count!). I really appreciate hearing the truth. It is scary and sad, but very freeing as well.
January 10, 2014 at 4:11 pm
Thanks for your comment. Several days ago I had been able to identify a current personal friend to the girl. I asked the friend if she would be able to make inquiry as to the back story. One of the things I wanted confirmed is was the father a BCA member at the time it happened. It was confirmed just very recently that the father was not a BCA member. As such I’ve revised the article accordingly. Thanks for your concern in this matter. I do my best to be as accurate as possible. However, when covering the story of life in a cult this poses special challenges, particularly where the “no gossip” rule is one of the most significant mind control techniques used in “the community”.
Speaking of gossip, if anyone has a copy of Gossip: The Plague of the Church by Scott Brown, I’d like to be able to review it for an upcoming article. My email contact info is in the right sidebar, or email Jen.
January 8, 2014 at 1:00 pm
The 17 year old girl was, in fact, at BCA, and not one of the other churches in “the community”. It’s now being disputed whether or not the father was also a BCA member. Previously it was thought by my sources that the father was a BCA member, but now there’s some doubt. There is conflicting information on that point, so I’m going to concede that the father may have not been at BCA.
TW: don’t you think you need to delete your commentary regarding this in the body of the blog OR make a correction concerning this? Either that or make a separate blog post regarding the error. The comment is lost here in so many comments and very very few people are going to see it. Even honest reporters, will correct their mistakes…..I think this needs to be done for the sake of the 17 year old and others involved.
January 4, 2014 at 1:19 pm
Downloaded the pdf 2014 catalog . Have always enjoyed seeing the Phillips family photo in it. Couldn’t find it this time. Am just overlooking it due to the small screen size of my phone ?
January 4, 2014 at 2:51 pm
You’re right. I just scrolled through it and I don’t see a family picture. Seeing the videos made me feel sad — what happens to the movies that were submitted to the film festival if VF obtained the sole distribution rights?
January 5, 2014 at 4:17 pm
Cindy Lacy at 1/5 2:25 pm – Voice of the Martyrs dealt with the situation immediately and there was not a cover-up. Tom White is around no longer, without me getting into details.
The VOM situation was (and is) completely opposite of this terrible cultish situation with DP and VF. With VOM, it was a sad example of a leader falling into sin, but thank God the leadership did exactly what they should have done.
We must be cautious to not lump all Christian ministries together – there still are some around with godly leaders striving to do what is right. From everything we’ve heard from people who know VOM well, it falls into that category thankfully!
January 5, 2014 at 4:50 pm
An interesting report about the Tom White crime: “Tom White, Abuse, VOM, and the Power of the Internet” by Pastor Wade Burleson of Emmanuel Enid in OK. [http://www.wadeburleson.org/search?q=+VOM ]
an excerpt: “Her father was now on the phone. I answered trepidatiously, not knowing what to expect. During the subsequent forty-five minutes I had one of the most moving phone conversations of my life. I cannot go into all the details of the conversation, particularly in regard to the abuse and the circumstances surrounding Tom White’s death. These matters will remain confidential out of respect for the victim and her family, as well as the family of Tom White. What I can say is that there is no doubt the abuse occurred.”
January 5, 2014 at 5:44 pm
Tragic as these circumstances are, I am glad to hear that VOM stood up to be counted, and dealt with the matter as they should.
Thank you for confirming this; I have been greatly saddened by the fact that this organization had such a thing happen. Its good to know that they were willing to act as R Wurmbrand would have desired them to do.
January 5, 2014 at 9:05 pm
Can someone explain why this is not gossip?
I haven’t read it. Glancing through it I see it’s all about BCA. It affects no one not currently part of BCA.
I’m not being argumentative; I’d really like to know. What definition of gossip would not include this?
My mom would have said that gossip is any negative speaking of another person. Obviously that’s too general, and includes a number of things the Bible writers do, and allow, and even command. But the Bible soundly condemns gossip, so it must be possible to define.
Turns out gossip is rather hard to define, even when you’re not rationalizing. After studying and discussing the Bible’s teachings on gossip, a friend and I came up with this working definition.
What is gossip?
It’s a type of negative speaking to someone else, about a third person who is not present.
But it can’t be only that; there are too many instances of that which we would all agree are not gossip. What other criteria must be present?
Five additional criteria are often present in an instance which we would call gossip. These items need not all be present, and no single criteria is always present. Instances of gossip have what we call a ‘family resemblance.’
If you communicate something negative to someone else about a third person who is not present, it may be gossip if TWO OR MORE OF THE FOLLOWING are also true:
1. You desire to cut that person down, and make others think worse of them. This is often portrayed by an eagerness to talk about the item shared.
2. The person being told is not part of the problem or solution, and is not likely to be affected by the negative item.
3. The item communicated is a matter of character, behavior, or personality, rather than doctrine or belief.
4. You would not be willing to say the same thing to the person you’re discussing.
5. The item communicated was relayed to you in confidence.
(Note that the truth of the item is not an issue at all. Gossip may be proven fact, it may be mere rumor, it may be blatant falsehood.)
If these are accurate, Biblical standards, this story fails on points 1, 2, and 3. As such, it should be taken down.
Jen and TW seem to be honorable, reasonable people. Can you tell me why this story does not violate those standards? Or perhaps it would be worth discussing whether the above definition is adequate. If it is, we shouldn’t post stories like this, and we shouldn’t read them.
So why is it my business? Why is it anyone’s business outside of BCA and its sister-churches?
January 5, 2014 at 9:42 pm
What’s just as bad as someone who claims others are gossiping? Those that continue to read/listen to what they consider gossip. Hmmm.
January 5, 2014 at 9:49 pm
Mykl: Because this matter went outside of BCA and its sister-churches.
And if he shall neglect to hear them, tell it unto the church: but if he neglect to hear the church, let him be unto thee as an heathen man and a publican. Mathew 18:17
January 5, 2014 at 10:20 pm
Mykl, Why are you trying to protect and defend wolves who prey upon the sheep by covering up things that are wrong. Unfortunately many people (sheep) have been brainwashed to accept and not question the status quo. Remember WW2 Germany. Afterwards the sheeple exclaimed “we didn’t know” “We trusted our leaders”.
January 5, 2014 at 10:22 pm
I guess by your standards Paul, Luke, Jesus and many other’s in the bible were gossipers as well.
Luke 12 In the meantime, when an innumerable multitude of people had gathered together, so that they trampled one another, He began to say to His disciples first of all, “Beware of the leaven of the Pharisees, which is hypocrisy. 2 For there is nothing covered that will not be revealed, nor hidden that will not be known. 3 Therefore whatever you have spoken in the dark will be heard in the light, and what you have spoken in the ear in inner rooms will be proclaimed on the housetops.
January 5, 2014 at 11:17 pm
Yes Mykl – consider the account of Esau and his mother, Joseph’s brothers, the whole Jacob & wives fiasco, Abraham’s affair and the like? Is it possible God wanted us to have a manual of what NOT to do and what NOT to fall for? I’m not trying to trap you. Much of what is here is crucial to bring into the light, especially for the unsuspecting homeschool families purchasing products from and attending conventions led by these people and their affiliated companies. We donated THOUSANDS of dollars to VF, Voice of the Martyrs, AFA, and more. Again – I am very appreciative for the help of being discerning and putting our hard-earned money where it will be God’s money. And if enough people have personal testimonies about these guys being ungodly spiritual leaders – bring it on. I have sense enough to apply discernment in what I am reading. Obviously we all have a bit of a slant. Unavoidable.
January 5, 2014 at 11:33 pm
And because I keep thinking of things to say – this blog was started by a family who single-handedly tried to expose this years ago. They were ridiculed, mocked, spat on, mistreated, called liars, and crucified for their efforts. I am not likening them to Christ, but I will say that they appear to have been slow to anger scripturally as I have been over this whole ordeal. And the more I see under the surface here coupled with the lies we endured about the festival entry date being extended even though DP had already been caught and ousted, then being told the SAICFF was postponed because of finances even though they were hiding the true reason, simultaneously awaiting unreturned emails about whether or not our project and registration had been rec’d, what the new guidelines would be for the category we were entering, etc.) the more scripturally angry I get! And my heart tells me to make sure this does not happen to YOU. I am not here for names of significant others and colorful details – but the dates, names of the perpetrators, companies affiliated, leadership details not congruent with scripture (wife-spanking goes here!) – ALL IMPORTANT. Some of us are not content to go on feminine feel-good devotional-like drivel any more. Read the Bible for yourself. Do your own research. Quit drinking the Koolaid.
January 6, 2014 at 4:22 am
“Some of us are not content to go on feminine feel-good devotional-like drivel any more. Read the Bible for yourself. Do your own research. Quit drinking the Koolaid”
January 6, 2014 at 9:37 am
Please do not lump VOM in with VF. They have done nothing wrong. They had a situation and they handled it properly. End of story.
January 6, 2014 at 10:45 am
Sarah – I did not “lump them together” – you did. I was simply stating the groups we continue to support in an effort to show how we spread our God money around. I am appreciative to know that our donations there are well spent if you would like to share that. I did not imply they were corrupt. Read it again. You can ask if ever in doubt. Don’t assume.
January 6, 2014 at 11:00 am
Bbb I apologize for misunderstanding what you were saying about VOM. I think this entire situation about Doug Phillips is a reminder that we as believers need to do our homework. We need to research authors, speakers, musicians, ect… before reading/buying their stuff. And of course comparing everything to Scripture as it is the final authority not Doug Phillips 🙂 Praise The Lord for that 🙂
January 6, 2014 at 3:22 pm
January 5, 2014 at 10:31 pm
I agree that gossip may be difficult to define. Perhaps we need to stick to positive words.
However, I think the reason Jen & TW want to share so that the clergy abuse can stop.
It is criminal what has happened!
I do no think they are trying to get anyone to think worse, but rather realistically about these false leaders.
Telling especially the homeschool community is wise because if you have not been involved, you probably know someone who is. People need to be aware. Your 3rd point is difficult because character, behavior, and doctrine are mingled so closely with these individuals.
I think the authors would speak plainly to the person they are discussing, if given the chance.
They are reporting, and like other reporters, some people giving facts may not want to be named.
My 2 cents.
January 6, 2014 at 9:55 am
Bibb – yes same family that won for the movie “The Widows Might”.
January 6, 2014 at 10:08 am
Why can’t any of these people just get regular jobs like soldier/engineer/doctor/accountant/lawyer/retail manager?
Why do they always have to be Leading A Movement? I mean, seriously…MLM? That’s not a career for a responsible Christian.
January 6, 2014 at 10:11 am
JPGR, you ARE making an MLM exception for Young Living, right? 😉
January 6, 2014 at 10:54 am
Ya, that is a pretty broad stroke you are using . MLM in itself isn’t bad. I know many people who have done very well w/ it without any trickery or dishonesty .
January 6, 2014 at 10:56 am
I think you missed my sarcasm. YL is one of the worst, and it’s preyed on the homeschooling community worse than most.
January 6, 2014 at 10:35 am
Sure, whatever works!
January 5, 2014 at 11:06 pm
I will not debate your gossip criteria because it has already been addressed on some of the other posts. I will state that I am very appreciative for much of this info as it is helping me to be more discerning about this web of cult type leaders who seem to have many things in common that were not visible to me on the surface. I am reminded of the Borg in Star Trek as I see the connections. I am appalled that I just finished the Economics series by RC Sproul Jr. and totally missed that he was teaching that God created evil. Unbelievable. It took a secret service dad to point that out to me when he watched the very first episode of the course I loaned him. How did I miss that? What else have I subjected my kids to without knowledge. My daughter has mentioned more than once that she doesn’t want to marry. I dismissed it as immaturity. But now – I’m not so sure. Yes – she read Elsie Dinsmore and It’s Not that Complicated. I think somehow these cult messages spilled over without my knowledge and now I have some backtracking to do. I am very invested in the SAICFF festival and now wonder what was being taught to the students behind closed doors while I shopped and played. So – ty for this “gossip” – I am now checking every source, every name.
I have been researching past SAICFF festival winners to see what they are up to now – Huemoore, LeClerics, etc. Can someone confirm for me if the link below is possibly referring to the same Moore family that won 3 audience awards and 1,101,000 prize? I am almost sure based on the Texas town listed as the headquarters. These are pretty damning reports about their MLM business. If so, what is the DP connection here and are more of these DP families associated with MLM? I can see this being a possible network for luring in families to the cult. (I said possibly – this means I am speculating 🙂 This is important to know because many homeschool families are encouraged to visit MLM meetings. Call it gossip if you will – but I call it homework.
January 6, 2014 at 9:32 am
Thank you Bbb for this post about the economics curriculum by R C Sproul Jr. This curriculum is recommended on the homeschool curriculum website, Timberdoodle, so I bought it for my children. I haven’t even opened it yet and now I’m glad I didn’t. I can’t see why I would subject my kids to such lies from someone associated with the type of stuff being discussed on this blog. If it weren’t for this blog I wouldn’t be aware of so much stuff that my children and I had unknowingly “bought” into. My oldest has no interest in college after high school. Going into debt is one good reason to not go, however, I can’t help but wonder how much of DP’s teachings, and others in his line of deception, has crept into our homeschooling that there is an unhealthy “fear” of the world and life after homeschooling. This momma is on watch from here on out. I can’t thank Jen and TW enough for exposing this stuff. It’s hard for me to believe how I would gaze at the covers of VF magazines, wanting that for my family. I really don’t know how far reaching these teachings have gone, I can only trust that one by one they will be brought into the light and each will lead us back to Jesus. Kevin Swanson is scheduled to be keynote speaker at our homeschool convention. Which leads me to question the entire agenda of the convention altogether. It’s no longer about helping families gain information and access to homeschooling curriculum but putting money in the pockets of some terribly deceptive personalities ready to prey on unsuspecting homeschooling families. If it weren’t for the DP scandal I wouldn’t know a thing nor would I have questioned these men and their values and teachings until the bill of goods was sold and the fruit produced was found to be rotten. Gosh, I feel like turning on some Christian rap music now and turning it up really LOUD! :). Who’s with me? 🙂
January 6, 2014 at 9:46 am
He he! I’m in!
January 6, 2014 at 12:24 pm
I’m with you! You stated exactly what I have been feeling. Our big homeschool group in this area sent out an email to everybody to send cards of “Thinking of You” to the Phillips family. Yeah, I’m thinking of them just not in that way! My son has been listening to the Sproul economics curriculum. I didn’t even catch the “God created evil” line in the first video. My son is no longer going thru that series. Right now my prayer is for forgiveness for being so easily duped and discernment for the future. I’m praying that my kids haven’t been messed up for life! By reading some other forums, it seems like some kids have been pretty damaged by this movement.
January 6, 2014 at 1:50 pm
Is it the same letter by Jon and Candy Summers that I quoted from in Doug Phillips: Portrait of a Religious Sociological Cult Leader? The Summers appear far more concerned with preserving their revenue stream than they are with protecting home school families from wolves in sheep’s clothing.
January 6, 2014 at 7:24 pm
I’ll have to plead the fifth on that one! 😉
January 6, 2014 at 3:24 pm
Yes, the convention agenda is puzzling. I love the focus on America, founding father’s, truthfulness, courage, boyhood, manhood, purity, finishing college early, etc. Why can’t it be done without the hidden messages? Is there no money in that?
January 6, 2014 at 9:54 am
Bbb- Yes this is the same family that won for their movie “The Widow’s Might.”
Not surprised to read the reports you posted.
Crazies abound in the VF inner circle.
January 6, 2014 at 10:12 am
Widow’s might is a Moore production and so is Ace Wonder…which has been kept in limbo for several years. Many ask WHY ? LOTS of people keep asking WHEN are we going to get to see it but with no answer. Maybe they offended dougie wuggie or joshie woshie somehow.
January 6, 2014 at 7:13 am
By this definition and sub-items 2 through 4 (with sub-item 1 as collateral damage) a newscaster saying “Police are warning the public to be on the lookout for…” is gossip.
The newscaster is communicating something negative about someone to third parties. This inevitably makes the public wary of anyone fitting that description (sub-item 1). The people being told may not be affected (sub-item 2). The matter being communicated is a matter of legality (behavior) not doctrine or belief. The newscaster probably isn’t willing to say the same thing to the person being discussed, especially if the bulletin ends “… believed to be armed.”
The only thing that doesn’t count at all is that the news isn’t told in confidence.
When your definition of gossip does not allow the public to be aware of crimes against it and protect itself, your definition of gossip silences the watchguards and allows crime to continue unchecked.
January 6, 2014 at 12:58 pm
Mykl, it is a given that when a commenter comments in an article’s thread that they have at least read the article. The fact that you haven’t read the article, and yet you think yourself qualified to post a comment critical of my article (if not this entire blog) speaks volumes of your character. I find your methods to be disingenuous at best, and patently dishonest at worst.
If you would like an honest dialogue, debate, or argument I’m always prepared to do that. So far your “dialogue” here has been one-sided with you posting multiple comments but generally failing to reply to the numerous responses from me and others. Your tactic is called “hit and run”. Perhaps you’ve been an under-study of Doug Wilson, who himself is famous for such dishonesty. You, just like Doug Wilson, justify your negligence with being too busy as an “Underpatriarch”. However, your alleged busyness doesn’t preclude your moving on to post yet another lengthy comment, like the one above. I don’t buy it, nor do I buy, “I haven’t read it.” How very convenient an excuse, given that this article specifically addresses Doug Phillips’ “no gossip” rule.
Prior to posting any further comments you need to read the above article. Then your very next comment on this blog needs to be to address my response to you in the previous article here. If you fail do so, and if you ignore this comment as you have ignored virtually all of my responses to you so far, I will be forced to place you in the moderation queue, something which has rarely been done here.
January 6, 2014 at 3:29 pm
And while you are at it – give us your background. We have been pretty transparent here. Bbb – homeschool parent, teacher, missions supporter, SAICFF festival attendee, helpmeet by the Bible’s definition.
January 6, 2014 at 3:43 pm
Transparency and personal disclosure here are purely voluntary, Bbb. If Mykl wishes to do so he may, but there is no such requirement. There are plenty of commenters here who have good reason to maintain their anonymity, and we’ll continue to respect that.
January 6, 2014 at 7:11 pm
Was I not respecting anonymity in some way? This was an effort to encourage someone to provide a little background of their worldview. It would help respond to and understand this person better. I appreciate that Jen assumes we are on the high road here. GG
January 6, 2014 at 8:42 pm
Early in 2012 I spent an afternoon with two very good friends from San Antonio who had recently left BCA. For 6 hours I listened as with 5 other families (total strangers to me) they discussed with two men from another local church about healing and about joining a church vs. starting a church. Everyone there (20+ people) knew why they had left BCA, except me. In all that discussion none of them even hinted at what the problems were. If I hadn’t been there, they could have spoken freely. Since I was there, all I learned was that they had not all left for the same reason, and that Doug Phillips was overcommitted.
These were people who understood the sin of gossip and knew how to avoid it. To this day I don’t know why they needed to leave.
Contrast these folks with the folks who, every time they hear a juicy tidbit, get on this blog and tell the whole world. Even when that tidbit is frank speculation!
What’s done at BCA need to be resolved at BCA, not on the internet. With all due respect, that’s why I don’t plan to read Jen’s story. If I were planning to join BCA, or if I needed to counsel someone who had been, was or would be part of BCA, this information is relevant. As it is, this is none of my business.
Whoever has read this, ask yourself: is this my business?
January 6, 2014 at 9:05 pm
I take it, @Mykl, neither you nor anyone you love has been under the influence of DP? If that is true, then maybe this is none of your business…so why are you on this blog reading all the comments in the first place? For those of us who are/have been under his influence, or love people who are, it is our business. If he is a wolf in sheep’s clothing, then for the love of the sheep, for the love of Christ’s body – His bride – DP and those like him must be exposed. Jesus, our good Shepherd, goes to GREAT lengths to retrieve the one lost sheep, even if it means leaving the 99. We should take the sheep’s safety seriously as well. Let’s not protect the wolf and leave the sheep in harm’s way. Let’s protect the sheep and let the truth set them free.
January 6, 2014 at 9:14 pm
“With all due respect, that’s why I don’t plan to read Jen’s story. If I were planning to join BCA, or if I needed to counsel someone who had been, was or would be part of BCA, this information is relevant. As it is, this is none of my business.”
…and yet you keep coming back, Mkyl, just like a pig to what you consider a trough. Why? Why are you here? Do you have some calling as a gossip police? Do you think by your constant vigilance you are going to silence the voices that were silenced too long, silence that allowed these atrocities to take place?
Yes, it IS our business, as many have pointed out to you in Scripture. It’s not just my business, it’s my *responsibility* to warn those who could become the next victims. Even your friends with whom you sat and witnessed their skirting around the truth–think how their noble silence led to many more precious souls being deceived, defrauded, devastated. No, contrary to your assertions they *didn’t* understand gossip–like too many others their silence proved that they were men who had been cowed and castrated, silenced against the very words that could have brought life. There was nothing admirable in what they did or what you are doing. You are just as deceived by the contrived warnings about the “horrific sin of gossip” as your friends. You may not know why they left but many others do, and they are not willing to see any more families, nannies, or interns led like lambs to the slaughter.
January 6, 2014 at 9:05 pm
In these posts on gossip I am asking a question, friends. I am not making a judgment. Please read more carefully what I wrote. I asked, “Why is this not gossip?” and “By what definition of gossip does this not qualify?” I’d like to know how you define gossip. It’s a sin that has been qualified into oblivion in this culture. I offer that definition just to give you all something to shoot at. If someone has a better definition, I’d like to hear it. Because of the way I understand the sin, I read enough of this article to know I shouldn’t read any more. I just wondered if anyone else had asked the same question, and what the answer was.
I have responded to one of your posts to me, TW, and I’m in the middle of responding to the second. The one you linked here is new since I was on here last. I wish I could respond to everything like I did on Dec 27, but that day was very unusual: I had no work and what I was responding to was all pretty easy. Your writing is more thoughtful and while my mind is flooded with responses, I have very little time to actually write it down.
I’m not at all shy about revealing who I am, but my wife doesn’t want patriarchy associated with our last name, so this might come across as coy. I’m a late-30s self-employed father of three under 10, married to the finest woman who ever lived. I’ve been learning from these men for over 20 years, and have a number of friends who also have. I believe I am qualified to write about the movement’s teaching, but not about the lives of the leaders. Therefore I would like to defend the truths on the movement’s teaching, but I will not write a word in defense of the teachers.
The post on gossip was written in my head while pulling an 18-hour day last Friday. It took 15 minutes to write. Writing is not what takes the time. This post took less than 10 minutes. Reading and percolating on such a huge amount of material is simply beyond my schedule. I’m a fast writer but a slow thinker. 🙂
I hope to write more. I love writing and interacting with this, and I think I have something to add. But there are just too many comments for me to read and think about them all before they’ve swept on a mile ahead. Posts addressed to me I will read carefully and try to respond to in the next few weeks.
January 6, 2014 at 11:48 pm
Mykl, your so-called reply to my comment wasn’t a reply but an evasion. I gave you fair warning. You failed to heed the warning. Your comments from here on out will be moderated, and they will be held in moderation until such time as you comply with what you were asked to do.
BTW, as I said previously, your M.O. is right out of Doug Wilson’s play book.
January 7, 2014 at 6:22 am
You’re right, that wasn’t a reply. I’m working on a reply. I didn’t see your ultimatum until after I’d already posted several other things and was ready to go to bed, but it looked like I had to say something. I would love to respond to everything addressed to me, but I didn’t realize, when my wife encouraged me to get on here, that in doing so I’d be *required* to do so. I haven’t had a chance to reply to that long post because I just saw it, but I have responded to a number of others addressed to me. Are you going to freeze me off until I respond to that one in particular?
In my post Jan 5 at 7:55am, I outlined 4 things I’m trying to defend on here, and elaborated on 1, 2, and 4. The 3rd point (gossip) I was going to leave until I saw an example of. Almost immediately, it seems, I did. But instead of calling it gossip, I asked. Can anyone define gossip in such a way that it doesn’t include this post?
Actually, I’d like to know, would someone please define gossip? At all? That was the main reason for my post and I still haven’t gotten any takers.
Likewise, the main reason for all my posts on the previous threads is to get someone to define ‘patriarchy.’
I’m asking, not defining the terms myself, because I have no wish to ‘control the debate.’ I merely want to make sure we’re all talking about the same thing.
I don’t know Doug Wilson’s M.O.; I’ve never read his blog. My M.O. is to get on as often as a can (about an hour or two a week) and write as much as I can, then read what responses I’ve already gotten and spend a few days percolating on replies. While I’m sitting here, a radiator exploded upstairs and water is dripping through the ceiling. So it may be a while before I get on here again. But since you’ve asked me a question, I promise, I will.
January 16, 2014 at 8:13 am
Mykl, it’s rare that anyone has ever had to be put in moderation here. I have approved all your comments, but you’ve left me with little alternative but to put you into moderation. I’ve done so only because of your obvious attempts to repeatedly derail the subject at hand and the purpose of this blog. We give commenters here a considerable amount of latitude to occasionally deviate from the subject. You, however, have gone way beyond what is reasonable.
You’ve asked all the questions, and multiple commenters here have answered many of your questions. You too have been asked some questions in response, but you have given no answers. With you it’s been nothing but hit and run. You haven’t engaged in honest interaction or debate. You’ve justified your disruptive behavior with, “I’m too busy being an Underpatriarch to be able to interact right now, but I’ll come back to answer your questions later.” So you come back later and answer nothing but post another very lengthy comment. You’ve posted 51 comments in two weeks, and yet you’re supposedly too busy to respond to any questions?
Furthermore, multiple people, myself included, have responded to your questions. Yet you have refused to acknowledge those answers, pretending as if no one had answered you, and so you ask the same questions again and again. Your behavior is completely consistent with a Disrupter. Life is confusing enough all on its own without your causing further confusion.
As to the definition of gossip, please see my latest article, Scott Brown’s No Gossip Rule: The Plague of the NCFIC. Feel free to interact with that article. But if you’re going to refuse to even read it then kindly refrain from commenting at all.
Common sense dictates that it’s completely inappropriate to comment on an article which you haven’t even read, claiming, as you have before, “I can’t read it because it’s gossip”. Your conduct is utterly maddening. You’ve asked “Why is this article not gossip?” I pointed you to an article that addressed your concern, but you refused to read it because you claimed that it’s gossip. How are you to know that without even reading it? You can’t, but you make that judgment anyway. And why is it okay for you to read the comments in an article that you claim is gossip (even though you couldn’t possibly know that because you haven’t read it), and yet by your own standards the comments too must be gossip but you read them anyway?
The comment thread is intended for commenting on the article itself and anything that might be reasonably related to the article. One thing the comment thread is definitely not intended for is to permit Disrupters to derail the subject at hand. You’ve done that repeatedly and it won’t be permitted again. If you decide to start interacting honestly here then you will be removed from moderation.
January 7, 2014 at 7:40 am
TW – Thank you. You are wise to moderate MYKL. I smell a troll trying to take over/ change the focus of this blog to making you and Jen continually defend against the charge of “gossip”.
We are not here to try to convince “MYKL”, and him alone, of any particular thing. This is not about the conversion of MYKL.
Personally, I wouldn’t find it hard to believe that MYKL is simply a VF planted troll.
January 8, 2014 at 9:48 pm
As you requested, yesterday I responded to your post of January 5, 2014 at 11:48 am.
This evening I also read the above post, Doug Phillips’ Boerne Christian Assembly: More Lies and CYA
Yesterday I asked my previously-mentioned friend (former part of BCA and VF) his opinion whether I should read it. His reply was illuminating. First he said that he and his wife have found many blogs like Jen’s, and were very hopeful that some serious matters would be properly discussed and the church of Christ grow and benefit. But each time he’s found that writers quickly descend into name-calling and hearsay and bitterness.
With his permission I quote:
“Those posts are more of the same: a mixture of truths, falsehoods, maybe’s, possibly’s, probably’s, and hoping-this-is-the-case’s.
“Is it gossip? Some of it certainly is, in the form of unfounded claims. Other of it certainly is, in the form of it not being the whole world’s business, even though true. Yet some of it is true enough, and would be very helpful to discuss in other, more-appropriate settings.
“The problem with asking folks on those posts whether or not it was gossip, is very few of them can take your question for what it is. Many of them really were silenced by accusations of gossip, and so their view of gossip was skewed. Seriously “need-to-know” details were ignored for fear of gossiping. But when a dangerous dog is loose in the neighborhood, it’s not gossip to tell someone what it looks like, or who owns it.
“But when folks feel like they’d been freed from one end of an unbalanced ethical standard, they often swing to the opposite end, and can hardly handle a question like yours. Now they’re wary of anyone who questions their freedom to ‘share’ without restriction. For many, it’s all part of the “healing process.” In reality, many are keeping their wounds open, so that a legitimate outlet remains open for their feeling of personal vengeance (or some other vice). I know this tendency remains in my own heart, and it’s sinful.”
But then he added:
“However, I would argue that exposure to gossip does not make one a gossip. It has more to do with what you do with the information, and whether you tarry for no reason.”
And I saw at once he was right. So with that encouragement, and a considerable curiosity on my own part, I read the “More Lies and CYA” post.
And I’m sorry I hadn’t read it before I posted. I think my question was valid (Is this gossip?) but if I’d read the article I would have certainly approached it differently, so it looked less like an accusation. I didn’t realize that gossip was itself a theme of the post.
And I’ve decided not to comment this blog anymore. I think I’m not a good match here. I wish someone with a positive perspective was able to regularly contribute here, but I’m not that person.
I only ask you, T.W., as a man of honor, could you please allow the comments I’ve posted since January 6, 2014 at 11:48 pm? You said you would moderate my comments until I did what you asked. I have done what you asked. (I intended to eventually but now I’ve done so much sooner than I would have.) Since I was accused of ‘hit-and-run’ tactics, I think it would be honorable for you to let readers see I’m not guilty. I’ve tried to respond to everything addressed to me, even where I would rather have let someone else have the last word. But there’s just too much. If I’m required to respond to every one, I simply don’t have time.
Also, if you really want some interaction on what you posted to Doug Wilson, I’m willing to give it a shot. But other than that, I think I’ll admit defeat. I trust God will work through this blog. Thanks for reading.
January 6, 2014 at 7:25 pm
Can you give some Biblical support for the five criteria of gossip you have listed, MyKl? As Teresa pointed out, Jesus sure maligned the character of the Pharisees! And Paul was not afraid to name the names of those who harmed him. Your list sounds like something you made up yourself in an attempt to shame the authors of this blog.
January 6, 2014 at 8:46 pm
John also calls out people by name publicly: “I wrote to the church, but Diotrephes, who loves to have the preeminence among them, does not receive us…And, not content with that, he himself does not receive the brethren, and forbids those who wish to, putting them out of the church.”
January 6, 2014 at 9:14 pm
Actually, I made it up 15 years ago in discussion with a friend. Naturally I think the principles are Biblical, but it will take me some time to give you chapter and verse on each one. I offer it to give folks something to shoot at.
Yes, Paul named names, of those who sinned publicly. Doug Phillips et al have committed public sins which need to be called out publicly. But are the sins discussed in this thread’s article really public? Do they really go beyond BCA and sister-churches?
January 6, 2014 at 10:26 pm
Mikl, since the sins of DP and many others of the patriarchy movement have hurt not only those directly fooled, but also those on the outskirts (such as Christian grandparents, who warned against such foolishness, but were ignored) I certainly do not think it is gossip but a rightful outing of sinful men. We are all sinners saved by grace. Those who are leaders are called to a higher standard. In my years of Christian Ministry I was humbled by my need for Jesus Christ every step of the way. When I was wrong I welcomed the rebuke of brothers and sisters. My ministry that was begun 25 years ago is still showing much fruit. As for me I am still nothing but HIS servant. No TV shows, no catalogues, not much charisma, no big church, just a plain person who loves God and others. And who also hates deceit by pretenders
January 9, 2014 at 4:43 pm
Forgive me for not being convinced by something you “made up out of your head.” I’m through following the movements and belief systems of Man.
January 6, 2014 at 9:14 pm
@Mykl – If all this craziness simply had to do with BCA, I would be somewhat inclined to agree with you.
However, Doug Phillips has not limited his authority to BCA. He has carried it into the public. He has tried to convince ALL families, not just those at BCA, that they should live as he does: in patriarchy. He has gained success from the public, he has preached to the public, he has received donations and made his living off homeschoolers like me. He has literally told thousands upon thousands of people like me how to eat, dress, worship, and live their lives. Not only that, but if he only taught falsely at BCA, the Bible still says false teachers must be exposed.
For a real life example, if a scientist taught false information even when approached about his/her error numerous times, would you be inclined to hold that scientist as credible? Of course not. How is this any different from the situation with DP, who has been approached by not only Jen and her husband, but numerous others, including DP’s own devotee Peter Bradrick, not to mention seeing he has led OTHERS astray with his extra-biblical teaching?
Many others here have posted numerous scriptures showing how false teachers MUST be exposed, which is definitely not gossip, because God does not command us to sin. TW and Jen are not bringing this information to light maliciously or to get revenge (that is the impression I get at least). While I cannot account for the heart attitude of every single commenter, I can assure you that if you read the articles, and Jen’s story, as well as noting the fact that she left this blog for FIVE years before coming back, you would see this. Think of this blog as a way of setting the facts straight for all who have been impacted in any way, shape, or form, by Doug Phillips’ teachings, not speculating and gossiping with no evidence whatsoever. There is an enormous difference.
January 7, 2014 at 1:41 pm
I am late to this discussion about this being “gossip” but here are a few thoughts I have.
So much of this teaching on what is gossip that has been used to shield leaders from people knowing about questionable (at best) actions of leaders has been taught for so long in some groups that so many assume it is “biblical” without even checking it out for themselves.
If Sovereign Grace Ministries didn’t have such a broad definition of what “gossip” and “slander” was and convince most of the sheep that their definition was “biblical” then I am sure the sin and hypocrisy of leaders including C.J. Mahaney would have come out a lot sooner.
A lot of this teaching on “gossip” that so many take as being “biblical” originated with Bill Gothard including his teaching on a “bad report” and not sharing it was when a sex scandal occurred in his organization that Bill Gothard was involved in to some degree. One should know the history of some of this teaching before playing the “gossip card” that so many like to do.
January 6, 2014 at 2:30 am
I hadn’t planned to join the conversations here due to my responsibilities as a wife and mother to a couple of very young blessings but I decided to give it a shot with the warning that if I don’t respond to comments it doesn’t mean I’m ignoring, been offended. etc.. It is that my family comes first.
Most everything shared here on this blog is news to me in terms of specifics; however, having been in a Presbyterian “cult” in the past and being now married to a very discerning, perceptive, godly man who has been amongst “cult” Christians and has even helped bring some of them out of the “cult” they were in, I am not surprised at these things. As has been indicated here in so many words, such behavior, give or take, is the norm in “cults”, yes, even though the words Christian and church may be used. Christ warned that many would say “Lord, Lord…” (Matthew 7:21-23).
I will try not to ramble. Growing up, I’ve been to Charismatic, Baptist, “Presbyterian” (wanna-be), and Reformed churches. Throw in a bit of Greek Orthodox too. When several members of my family and I were unlawfully excommunicated with about half of the membership from the Presbyterian group, it was hard. A number of months later, we had the blessing of sitting down with a number of ministers, elders and their wives from an established Presbyterian denomination to discuss what had happened and moving on. Something that was said by one of the ministers has stuck with me ever since. He referred to the 3 marks of a true church (a reference to the Belgic Confession: “Article 29…The marks, by which the true Church is known, are these: if the pure doctrine of the gospel is preached therein; if she maintains the pure administration of the sacraments as instituted by Christ; if church discipline is exercised in punishing of sin: in short, if all things are managed according to the pure Word of God, all things contrary thereto rejected, and Jesus Christ acknowledged as the only Head of the Church….” (http://www.prca.org/bc_text2.html)).
Then he stated that he personally adds a 4th mark and that is love. He does not make a doctrine out of it, just a personal point, but one that I have found to be an extremely important one. Ever since, time and again I have been confronted with just how significant true love amongst God’s people is to the Lord. Going through the shorter epistles a few years ago as a Bible study member (no study guide or the like), I was struck by how much exhortation was given by the writers to the recipients on love, loving one another, showing love, acting in love. And then there is the “11th commandment” – A new commandment I give unto you, That ye love one another; as I have loved you, that ye also love one another. By this shall all men know that ye are my disciples, if ye have love one to another.” (John 13:34, 35). I Corinthians 13 is a great one to consider regarding love in the church, especially regarding the teacher/preacher/leadership. Okay, I know first-hand how it can appear on the surface that there is love and so the deception goes on, but it is only a matter of time until something will show that it is all a facade and not the real deal (I’m speaking regarding men like DP and other cult leaders who are out for something other than preaching the Gospel, men who are about something else other than the glory of God). I will quickly state that I am not for all the gushy “Jesus is love” talk, or as Voddie Baucham called it in his criticism of “The Shack”, the sissified Christ who “needs you, yearns for you, is just waiting for you…”. No, that’s not the love which I find in Scripture. All I’m trying to say is, look at the fruit (Galatians 5:19-23). I say this not for those who have been there and have learned the hard way (many testimonies here to that), but for those who may be reading, who have not encountered what we have all encountered, or who are in it and are questioning, etc.. The ultimate must in a church is that Christ be preached and Him crucified as Paul said. But here is the thing – if that is being done, there should be a humility that characterizes the minister and elders. It will not be all about a strict set of do’s and don’t’s. We are not to add to or to take away from Scripture. Once the God-given rights and liberties of man are being taken away/violated, something is wrong. It is not of God. Try the spirits as John wrote in his epistle (I John 4)(My husband and I recently listened to some of John MacArthur’s talk on this passage, “Testing the Spirits”, from the Strange Fire conference, available on YouTube. Timely…) God gave the “rules” (the 10 Commandments). Those who are truly saved will keep them, albeit imperfectly (Romans 7), out of a heart of gratitude and thankfulness. There are principles and guidelines in Scripture regarding such matters as modesty and male-female relationships, but it is for each to apply to their situation and place in life, not for someone else to decide and make a rule about for them.
Enough said. A couple of other quick things.
To those who question the appropriateness of this blog and expose, keep in mind that those being exposed here are public figures. In a sense, they have chosen to be in the public eye. They have chosen to be public examples as it were, which should have been a caution and reason for them to guard themselves even more carefully against sin. However, that does not seem to matter. While Jen and TW are not prophets, I still believe that it is appropriate for them to sound the alarm (Ezekiel 33:1-6). I won’t get into all the NT passages which support what they are doing. Suffice it to quote Luke 12:1-3 “…[H]e began to say unto his disciples first of all, Beware ye of the leaven of the Pharisees, which is hypocrisy. For there is nothing covered, that shall not be revealed; neither hid, that shall not be known. Therefore whatsoever ye have spoken in darkness shall be heard in the light; and that which ye have spoken in the ear in closets shall be proclaimed upon the housetops.”
Regarding letters for transferring membership, this is done to varying degrees amongst Reformed and Presbyterian churches as well. It’s purpose is to inform the accepting church that the person seeking membership is not under discipline/excommunication. I will grant that there are those even amongst established denominations who take liberties with this practice (example, limiting which churches they approve of for a membership transfer letter. A letter of dismissal is otherwise issued, which is not an excommunication).
January 6, 2014 at 9:36 am
It’s not just that they are public figures, and thus subjected to heightened scrutiny.
It’s that all of these guys, Phillips, Botkin, Sproul, Jr., Brown have held themselves out as Super Elite Super Righteous Christians. So pointing out that they have done the things that they have done (which expose them not only as not elite Christians, but not even BASIC Christians) is not only appropriate, it is utterly necessary.
If they are not exposed, then those who are able to expose them are guilty of sin by empowering wolves to prey on the sheep.
January 6, 2014 at 9:43 am
Very good point!
January 6, 2014 at 10:06 am
January 6, 2014 at 7:40 pm
I totally agree
January 8, 2014 at 11:03 pm
I totally agree.
January 7, 2014 at 5:45 am
Been There, thanks for taking the time to share. Love what you wrote!
January 26, 2014 at 4:09 pm
You’re welcome. Thank you. (My apologies for such a late response…)
January 7, 2014 at 8:16 am
Your story echoes much of what we have seen and experienced ourselves. Heavy handed church leadership abounds in reformed denominations. (I say this being someone who holds to the basic doctrines of grace.)
Our first experience with the idea of someone needing to be “released” from church membership came in a PCA church. When the pastor began making truly reckless statements from the pulpit, my husband challenged him and went to the elders who privately agree the man was out of control. We eventually determined that we could not have our children sit under his teachings and went to another PCA church while attempting for SEVERAL YEARS to work through the issues. My husband filed a complaint with the presbytery and it was sustained and the elders and pastor were found guilty and were given a list of things they were required to do to remedy the situation. We were hopeful (naive) and really did plan to come back. Then the elders came back with an appeal, saying we had filed our complaint one day past the allowed time and, amazingly, it was sustained! (Our wake up call to the good old boys’ club.) When we refused to go back to the church, they “defacto excommunicated us, as it was announced to the congregation. Of course there is no such thing but the members, for the most part, didn’t know that. We had no trial and no paperwork other than a threatening letter and the correspondence with any church we attempted to join. They told other churches that if they did not uphold our “defacto” discipline, they would be called out in the community as an apostate church. Of course, those were scary words and very effective. We subsequently found out how many times this had been done to others. It is even worse in the mini-reformed denominations where they claim”purity” of doctrine! Ha! We have seen pastors and elders tell bold-faced lies in an attempt to keep people from joining churches and even threaten lawsuits against other brothers and sister in order to shut them up from speaking. (SLAP suits, as Julie Anne experienced.) Control by communion cup is the standard.
This is not just in “cult like” churches or “cults.” Look at this website that is embraced now by many Bible churches and ordinary evangelical churches.
January 7, 2014 at 9:50 am
I am terribly sorry for the spiritual abuse you and your family had to endure. It boils my blood to hear such stories. Presbyterianism isn’t supposed to be about that. It’s supposed to be about justice and due process, but in too many Presbyterian churches it’s been abused and used by the clergy to lord it over the sheep. Some Presbyteries get it right, such as what happened in the RC Sproul Jr case, but too many others get it wrong. That’s what happened to Jen and her family when they turned to Faith Presbyterian Church (PCA) in San Antonio. Faith PCA could have brought so much healing and restoration to a devastated family. Instead their Presbyterian session of elders played good old boys club with Doug Phillips. They gave their imprimatur to a wolf in sheep’s clothing, a cultmaster of a religious sociological cult, by writing:
Faith Presbyterian Church was not ignorant of Doug Phillips, nor could they profess ignorance. His presence looms large over San Antonio. They’d previously heard bad reports about Doug Phillips and they had good reason to believe that Doug Phillips was an ecclesiastical bully. The fact is he bullied them too which should have only confirmed in their minds that the Epstein’s excommunication had been a sham. Rather than being men and standing up to him they played the part of cowards and good old boys. They caved in and gave him what he wanted, a letter that legitimized him:
Faith Presbyterian Church of San Antonio condemned the Epsteins to a life of perpetual excommunication that could not and would not ever be lifted. Doug Phillips has “excommunicated” many. To my knowledge he has never revoked a single excommunication. Excommunication is not about church discipline to Doug Phillips. It’s about his personal vendettas and vengeance.
Faith PCA has never contacted Jen and her family to apologize for the travesty of justice that they perpetrated. God will hold those men accountable. I fear for them.
January 7, 2014 at 10:00 am
As I said, now is the time to pick up the phone & demand action.
January 7, 2014 at 1:29 pm
January 7, 2014 at 1:35 pm
Unfortunately, the situation with R.C Sproul Jr. as well as James McDonald and Marion Lovett who were “released” when Sproul was defrocked, which means they were declared by their presbytery to no longer be eligible to pastor, are now in their own presbytery they created themselves so what good did it do? Yet there are many reports of heavy handed discipline toward members in these churches. Sigh.
January 7, 2014 at 2:26 pm
I’m amused by James McDonald’s denominational web site “History” page. It tells us next to nothing. To find anything out you have to look elsewhere. Thankfully there are some web sites that do. From this blog we learn:
So McDonald and Lovett left the RPCGA because they’d been exposed in a covert takeover plot they’d hatched against their denomination. They’d taken vows to abide by the RPCGA’s standards, including not to practice paedo-communion, which they did anyway. Duplicitous takeover artists band together to start a denomination. Sign me up!
January 7, 2014 at 10:00 pm
“Presbyterianism isn’t supposed to be about that. It’s supposed to be about justice and due process …”
So true. Unfortunately, someone has aptly pointed out that the Sanhedrin was a “properly constituted Presbyterian court” that convicted Jesus and sentenced him to death. A “properly constituted” and “Biblical” system is worth nothing if it is staffed by snakes and wolves.
Better to be with those who are wrong on the adiaphora (secondary/disputed matters) but who are gracious and godly, than to be with those with impeccable theological credentials who are frauds.
January 8, 2014 at 11:08 pm
T.W. Eston wrote: “Excommunication is not about church discipline to Doug Phillips. It’s about his personal vendettas and vengeance.” And sadly, he’s not the only one with this mentality. Thankfully the “kangaroos” that headed the Presbyterian cult we were in had made fools enough of themselves with other Presbyterian and Reformed ministers that many who I have talked to have some awareness of them and don’t think much of them or their rulings. Hence our unlawful excommunications have never been upheld by churches that we have approached to join as members since.
A side-note: Beware of Still Waters Revival Books (SWRB). I would encourage you to put your money elsewhere to buy Reformed and Presbyterian materials if you’re shopping online.
January 6, 2014 at 8:37 am
If DP did not want his “sins” shouted from the housetop then DP should have kept his pants on literally.
Here are some scriptures to support exposing a wolf in wolf clothing.
(1) Do the scriptures encourage us to reprove and rebuke false teachers. Yes
2 Timothy 4:2-3
(2) Did Peter warn us that false teachers would arise? Yes
2 Peter 2:1
(3) Does the bible warn us that many will follow false teachers? Yes
2 Peter 2:2
(4) Does the bible warn us that false teachers will exploit people with stories they have made up? Yes
2 Peter 2:3
(5) Were false teachers present within the early church and are they present today? Yes
(6) Do false teachers interpretation come from man or God? Man
2 Peter 1:20-21
(7) Do false teachers bring swift destruction upon themselves? YES
2 Peter 2:1
(8) Are false teachers always readily apparent? No
(9) False teachers are presumptuous and self-willed. YES
2 Peter 2:10
(10) Do false teachers use flattering words that deceive simple heart? Yes
(11) Do the scriptures warn us to stay away from false teachers? Yes
(12) Will many be deceived by false teachers. Many
(13) Do false teacher love money? Yes
(14) False teachers believe that gain is godliness. Yes
1 Timothy 6:5
(15) Do false teachers profess to be believers? Yes
(16) Can false teachers preform miracles? Yes
(17) Does the bible speak of a place for false teachers? Yes, Hell
(18) Will people listen to false prophets and false teachers? yes
(19) Those who study the word of God carefully should recognize the doctrine of false teachers. YES
2 Tim. 2:15
(20) Teachers who “fail” to teach Jesus’ death, burial and resurrection “according to the scriptures are false teachers. Yes
(21) Does the bible command us to try and test the spirits to make sure they are of God. Yes
1 John 4:1
(22) True born again christian do not sin. False
1 John 1:10
(23) Doctrines that are man-made and not planted by the heavenly father will be rooted up. Yes
(23) What will happens to those who add to or take away from the word of God.
Revelations 22: 18-19
January 6, 2014 at 9:05 am
Teresa – This is so, so, so good! Yes, and amen sister!
Thank you for this comprehensive list of scripture.
January 6, 2014 at 11:01 am
I do not nor have I ever follow VF or DP but I know people in my church that have and still do. I grew up Baptist but later I got sucked in and indoctrinated by the Charismatic movement. I came out of the Word of Faith and the New Apostolic Reformation…..scandal after scandal, failed prophecy’s, false teachings, extra-biblical revelations, and so forth. If I have a dollar every time I have heard “Do not touch God’s anointed and do my prophet no harm” to keep people like me from questioning there teaching and so forth.
Benny Hinn even placed a curse on every man, woman, and child who raised a hand against his ministry. BH also said if he could find a scripture that said if he had a holy ghost machine gun, he would kill them (talking about heresy hunters) Sadly, even BH gets it right once in a while but he is still a wolf in wolf clothing.
If my pastor did not (which he does) encourage me right now to search the scripture to make sure what he says is true, I would walk for sure.
We will not be scoring brownie points with God for defending our favorite false teacher such as DP. Doug P is no different than any other wolf.
Jen and TW keep on exposing and contending for the faith.
We can say it is gossip all we want but the truth is the truth. DP sins are getting shouted for the roof tops….He is busted and exposed.
Da mom said it best….What’s just as bad as someone who claims others are gossiping? Those that continue to read/listen to what they consider gossip. Hmmm.
January 6, 2014 at 12:37 pm
Teresa N said: [If I have a dollar every time I have heard “Do not touch God’s anointed and do my prophet no harm” to keep people like me from questioning there teaching and so forth.]
You’d have a tidy sum of money on your hands right now. lol
So *glad* you came out of WOF and NAR!! I have been researching them along with KC-IHOP and the Emergent Church since Rick Perry’s Prayer Ralley.
January 6, 2014 at 2:02 pm
IHOP and we ain’t talkin pancake’s either. Those people are nuts.
Rick Perry’s prayer rally, yep they were there. Deception comes in many, many, forms.
Keep researching cause we will all be shocked when we connect the dots or fit the pieces of the puzzle together. only to find out how all this junk fits together for the greater deception.
There are some differences within the camps of Dominionism, Kingdom Now, and Christian reconstructionist , while there are similarities such as they all teach/preach that God’s people have the authority to “take dominion” to take over the world for Jesus. Especially (The 7 mountain mandate) which means that we (believers) are to conquer/occupy the spheres of influence of religion, family, education, government, media, arts/entertainment and business/marketplace) One group may call it 7 mountain mandate while another group calls it something else…..This is the deception that keep on giving.
January 16, 2014 at 9:08 am
Teresa said, “we will all be shocked when we connect the dots or fit the pieces of the puzzle together” We should not be too shocked; the coordination of these events/activities, while not actively planned by men, are most certainly being orchestrated by the god of this age. The whole idea of ‘pattern following’ to get God’s blessed outcome is very similar to the word of faith movement or ‘speaking things’ into existence. The difference is that DP and his ilk preach that God’s blessings come by following the pattern He gave in the OT combined with their additional rules. The blessings for both groups are guaranteed. Ultimately those blessings are closely tied to money and worldly success… and lots of it. Let’s face it Doug’s 8000 square foot house ain’t anything to sneeze at and Scott Brown, he’s not in some hovel with a loaf of white bread and margarine either. Jesus talks about those who make money off the gospel and He didn’t speak highly.
January 6, 2014 at 11:11 am
MYKL – stick your head in the sand to your peril, and that of your family as well. Ignorance is NOT a virtue. Covering up sin in the name of “gossip” is not wise…it is stupidity at its’ extreme. Discernment is the name of the game here, and God has a LOT to say about using it…..to test teachers, to expose darkness, to punish sin. Don’t justify sin, or ignore it, or you will become implicit in covering it up. Is that what you want?
January 6, 2014 at 9:23 pm
My wife and I are considering moving our family to another local church. If I knew things like this (about BCA) were happening there, it would be highly relevant, and would not be gossip.
By the same token, I have a couple very good friends who moved to SA in 2008 to work with VF and attend BCA. Four years later they needed to leave both. I still don’t know why. I didn’t ask and they didn’t tell me, because *it’s none of my business.* IF I HAD KNOWN ABOUT JEN’S STORY in 2008, I certainly would have recommended they look into it. It would have been relevant to them!
I’m not sticking my head in the sand where I and my family, or friends, are concerned. But what happened at BCA doesn’t concern me or anyone I know. So I’m not going to read it. Obviously I then shouldn’t comment on it. And I haven’t. I’m just asking: by what definition is it not gossip?
January 6, 2014 at 11:11 pm
Mykl, when Peter refused to eat with the Gentiles in that one particular,
fairly private situation, why did Paul tell the whole world about rebuking Peter for his sin and then put it in writing for everyone in the entire history of the world to know about it? Was Paul gossiping?
January 7, 2014 at 12:11 am
“I’m just asking: by what definition is it not gossip?” By your own definition it’s not gossip because “If I knew things like this (about BCA) were happening there, it would be highly relevant, and would not be gossip.” But since it doesn’t apply to you, by your own definition it’s gossip and you shouldn’t read it. Okay, so why are you still here? (rhetorical question) Clearly you’re not here out of any genuine interest in Doug Phillips, or RC Sproul Jr, or any others that you’ve spoken so highly of but then quickly back-peddled when it was shown that they too were scoundrels.
It’s also apparent from your hit and run tactics that you’re not interested in honest debate. Clearly, all you’re trying to do is to dissuade anyone else from reading the articles here which you yourself won’t read because, according to you, it doesn’t apply to you and it, therefore, is gossip. But according to you in some cases these gossipy articles aren’t gossip. It all depends on who reads it. Situational ethics much?
That being your position, why not just let the readers decide for themselves and lay off with the guilt trips?
January 7, 2014 at 5:34 am
TW, Mykl came to this blog wanting back and forth discourse on the meaning of patriarchy. I have read everything he has written and my understanding is that he is genuinely seeking answers and thought-provoking responses. He is not here merely as a dissenter, stirring up strife. If his conscience convicts him that something is wrong (such as on the issue of gossip), we do well to inquire about why he holds the conviction and then use wise words and careful biblical argument to show the error of his belief. I believe that Mykl is in error on nearly all of his rational and needs to be clearly refuted. But TW, your responses are harsh and at times you come across as arrogant. I know you’re fed up with anyone who gives patriarchy an inch; many of us are too! I am frustrated that a lot of people still give credence to the tenets and leaders of patriarchy. Sometimes I am downright angry that people don’t see the harm that Doug Phillips and his henchmen have caused and I am very passionate about exposing the wrong, just as you and others here are doing. I commend this. I also know that love is tough sometimes with the hard truth and strong communication. But it appears to me and my husband that there are times when you.come across as rude, harsh and disrespectful of those who are in any disagreement with you, or whom you judge to be antagonistic. Some might deserve those responses from you, while others may not. Regardless, we all would do well to remember that a good discussion/argument begins with the gentleness and peaceable attitude of wisdom. (James 3) Please take Mykl out of moderation, with a clear understanding of which rules you expect him (or anyone else) to adhere to in making comments. And please, TW, can you show a little more forbearance in your responses to comments that disagree with yours? We never win over a brother with condescending tones or speech. The trick is in knowing the difference between a ‘brother’ and a deceitful antagonist.
January 7, 2014 at 8:37 am
I must beg to differ that “Mykl came to this blog wanting back and forth discourse on the meaning of patriarchy.” If that’s all he were doing I’d let it run its course. Mykl’s strategy has been hit and run, and I’ve explained that to him and why it must stop. He was plainly warned what would happen if he continued, but he continued anyway. “I know you’re fed up with anyone who gives patriarchy an inch”. Actually that’s not the problem at all with Mykl, or with anyone else who wishes to defend Patriarchy. I personally know families that are into Patriarchy and they’re not the least been abusive of their families or anyone else. They’re also very capable of defending it without being manipulative, deceitful, or playing hit and run games.
An additional problem I see here with Mykl is his highjacking two threads for his personal agenda and taking the discussions far afield from the subject of the articles. I’ll be posting a new article in the next few days which has even less to do with Patriarchy than this article and the previous one. I’m not about to permit Mykl or anyone else to highjack that new article and get on a Patriarchy soap box. I’m not picking on Mykl or Patriarchy, and he’s been treated no differently than anyone else. I had to shut down another highjacker yesterday over his Roman Catholic soap boxing. Mark Hanson was at all times honest and forthright in his argumentation. He stayed within the thread that he’d created, unlike Mykl who has created new threads all over the place. We permit a limited amount of highjacking to take place here, but when their comments turn into articles in themselves, and especially multiple articles (and Mykl is guilty of that) it will be shut down.
Adding to the problem is Mykl’s duplicity. I’ve already clearly explained that problem to Mykl, so no need to go over that again here. I don’t know for certain if Mykl is a “deceitful antagonist”, but he has all the indicia of one, and he will be treated accordingly. He hasn’t been banned, he’s only been put into moderation, which considering all the games he’s been playing here is a very minor penalty. When he stops playing the hit and run games he may be taken out of moderation. Jen maintains a very liberal comment approval policy and I do my best to comply with her rules. Everyone else needs to do the same, Mykl included.
January 7, 2014 at 11:09 am
TW, Thanks for taking the time to state your reasons; I appreciate it and I do understand. I don’t fully agree, but that doesn’t matter. Just wanted to share my perspective (but I sure don’t want to hijack any threads). I appreciate the work that you put into these articles. Thanks for that, and for being willing to respond to my criticism.
January 7, 2014 at 6:56 am
JourneyGirl, I have a little different take on this, I have been following MYKL as well and at times thought he was sincerely looking for dialog on patriarchy, but I don’t think that anymore. He likes to hear himself talk and has given no indication he hears much less understands opposing arguments. My guess from his posts is that this is the way he approaches everything in life, he probably has a few teachers he follows and their word is the truth. I bet his wife could bear witness to that.
With the continued use of the term “under-patrirarch” it is proof he has fallen into following men and is not willing to give that up even in the face of all dangers this blog has exposed in doing so. In a sense he is defending his desire to follow whoever he is following by posting his arguments here, and he is doing so in an antagonistic way, I believe a strong arm is appropriate.
January 7, 2014 at 7:28 am
NC, you might be right. I’ve definitely thought so while reading a few of Mykl’s comments. And then other comments he seems genuine in seeking direction. Ok, so which is it Mykl? Are you humble and teachable, or are you just here to harass the issues and attempt to stalemate the discussion? I’m willing to give you the benefit of the doubt, but I am also willing to concede that it’s obvious you’ve been steeped in Bill Einwechter’s teachings. I hope you are the kind of man who seeks counsel and is willing to think outside the box…. And who also seriously considers the concerns and needs of your wife. I am willing to encourage your interaction here, but candidly, my willingness is more for the sake of your wife and kids. 😉
January 7, 2014 at 7:40 am
NC, also, I know I’m probably in the minority here, but I still maintain that sometimes TW comes across as rude and overly harsh. He doesnt have to please me or anyone else, that’s not the point. But I know a few people who are turned off from the discussion because of some of TW’s responses and while “strong arm can be appropriate, I disagree that Mykl should be put in blog comment moderation.
January 7, 2014 at 9:01 am
I freely acknowledge that I am sometimes rude and harsh, but I’m careful to limit that to duplicitous people like Mykl. I’m sorry that you can’t see that in him, but I do. I don’t mollycoddle such people and I make no apologies for it. Jesus himself was sometimes rude and harsh to deceitful and duplicitous men too, so I’ll make no apologies for following my Lord’s example.
I understand that you disagree with my decision to put Mykl in moderation. I got that the first time you said it.
January 7, 2014 at 2:36 pm
I’m glad you mentioned that and I hope its heeded. I was rudely blown off and it impacted my perspective most definitely. I even had a friend who follows this blog call me (who had no idea of my screen name) to discuss how he had handled a concern that “oneh20” had brought up. Out of the hundreds of entries on this thread up to that point, that’s the one she called to say she had had enough over. Not only was it rude and dismissive, its an ironic silencing tactic. I wrote a brief response and moved on – I haven’t “thrown out the baby with the bathwater”, but I am more inclined to trust someone who displays humility.
January 7, 2014 at 3:11 pm
What I responded to, oneh20 is your assertion that: “But my point was that stating things as fact when we are not 100% certain can be very harmful in general, for what its worth.” That was a factually false statement on two counts, the first being that what you were challenging me over could have even had the remotest possibility of “being harmful” to anyone. Please hold yourself accountable to the same standards you seek to hold me accountable to. Secondly, there was your demand of perfection, something which none of us are capable of. That’s the inevitable conclusion of “100% certain” – absolute perfection. If that is the real standard than I would have no choice but to stop writing these articles right now. In point of fact no newspaper, news broadcaster, blogger, or journalist of any kind should be permitted to write, publish, or speak because none of them, or any other human being on the planet can, guarantee anything as “100% certain”. It would be one thing if you only pushed your point once, but you did so several times, and over something of absolutely no consequence, i.e. how many times was Doug Phillips caught in the act with Cassandra, where did it happen and when did it happen? It makes little difference, yet you tried to make a major issue of it. If I had to be “100% certain” of such minutia then I wouldn’t be able to write anything about Doug Phillips at all.
As for this your latest accusation that I was rude to you, what I said was: “I’m in no mood to continue this with you, so kindly drop it.” I don’t know how I could have said it any more directly yet politely, especially at 12:20 AM when I desperately needed to retire and it was plain that you were intent on continuing the back and forth.
I freely acknowledge my lack of Emily Post etiquette, and my lack of humility. These aren’t my giftings. I will place no demands on you to acknowledge your need to have the last word and to reprimand me yet again publicly.
January 7, 2014 at 3:28 pm
All that I initially suggested was that if you don’t know for certain, maybe you could point that out in a phrase like, “To the best of my knowledge…” or something like that. I have interacted with you in other threads with encouragement. Your response here says enough. God bless.
January 7, 2014 at 4:02 pm
No, what you “suggested” is that I be “100% certain.” Using your standard I would have to preface most of my sentences with, “To the best of my knowledge”. There are few things in life that we can know with 100% certainty. 90%, yes. 95%, often. 99%, sometimes. But 100%? Rarely.
What you’re expecting is unreasonable. A reasonable person would be willing to acknowledge that and at least revise and moderate their position, i.e. cut me a little slack, like even just 1%. But apparently not you, and when I call you out on it you accuse me of being rude rather than dealing with the subject at hand.
To put this in the context of a real world scenario, and where the stakes are dramatically higher than anything at stake discussed in this blog, your expectation is a standard far higher than even that placed on a jury in a criminal trial, even a murder trial. A jury is instructed to make its judgment of “guilty” based upon evidence and testimony which is “Beyond a reasonable doubt”. No jury has ever rendered a verdict of “To the best of our knowledge the defendant is guilty”, nor would any jury ever be permitted to enter such a verdict.
“Beyond a reasonable doubt” is nowhere near “100% certain”. Even as much as is at stake in a murder trial, no one expects or requires it. Yet you expect it of me, a mere blogger to either be 100% certain or to have to quality every single thing with “To the best of my knowledge”. Makes no sense to me, and that’s one thing I am 100% certain of.
January 7, 2014 at 4:12 pm
Okay. God bless.
January 7, 2014 at 4:02 pm
Oneh20, it was exactly your comments to which I was going to refer TW if he asked me for an example of what I thought was rude. But since he didn’t ask, I decided to get back to folding my laundry.
January 7, 2014 at 4:09 pm
Thank you, JourneyGirl. It was never meant to criticize. Just a bit of caution for future reference. I was taken a little bit too literally. 😉
January 7, 2014 at 5:12 pm
So if I’m reading this statement correctly you are moderating your position now? I’m not really sure since it’s not addressed to me, but I’ll take it that way. I really wish you’d just done so in the first place. It could have saved us the back and forth. And yes, I took you literally. When you speak of “100% certainty” I’m assuming you’re pretty certain of your position. How else was I supposed to take your comments?
I have a serious problem with legalism and Phariseeism, oneh20. I see now from this other comment you posted that you do too. I wish I’d known that about you because your comments to me struck me as quite Pharisaical. No doubt you don’t see it that way, but anytime anyone puts an expectation of “100%” on me I read that as perfectionism and performance-based acceptance. I grew up under that system and I lived much of my life under it. I won’t ever allow anyone again to place that kind of requirement on me. To me it’s just hypocritical Phariseeism: “They tie up heavy burdens, hard to bear, and lay them on people’s shoulders, but they themselves are not willing to move them with their finger.” (Matt 23:4)
That’s exactly how I read your stipulation of “100%”. Apparently you didn’t mean it that way. Perhaps you could have just said so rather than shifting the blame on me by now implying that I suffer from being a literalist?
January 7, 2014 at 5:21 pm
“Perhaps you could have just said so rather than shifting the blame on me by now implying that I suffer from being a literalist?”
I’m not trying to blame you, criticize you, discourage you, or anything else you may feel. I was simply trying to encourage a way of stating things that wasn’t so cut and dry – because it can very much lend itself to unnecessary harm at some point. Maybe not in that instance – it was just an example. Your response was overwhelming and you “dismissed” me before I thought to clarify. I think when we have been hurt by legalism, it IS easy to jump to conclusions, to get too literal, and have our guard up. I totally get it. No worries and no hard feelings.
January 7, 2014 at 5:38 pm
Thank you. I appreciate your kind reply. Your criticisms (and yes, that’s how I read it) were quite discouraging to me. It triggered some things in me of some very painful stuff from the past, even the recent past. I think we all have some trigger words. One of mine is “100% certain”. To me that means, “Perfection”.
I inadvertently triggered something in a lady today by something I said. Absolutely no hurtful intentions on my part at all, but it happened. I didn’t make excuses. I didn’t shift the blame back onto her, accuse her of being too sensitive, or taking me too literally. I just did everything I could to make it right with her, including getting to the backstory, which is such a heartbreaker. I think we’ll be even closer as a direct result of that happening. I hope so.
Thanks for explaining yourself, oneh20. No hard feelings now on this end either.
January 7, 2014 at 5:45 pm
Yes, I think we’re all a little tender at times. I’d like to share something about legalism here, but it would completely end my anonymity. Sigh… Glad we worked that out! 🙂
January 7, 2014 at 5:58 pm
Me too! Feel free to email me if you like re: your personal story of legalism. I’d appreciate hearing it. You may have something significant to contribute that could bring some healing to others here in similar circumstances.
January 7, 2014 at 6:15 pm
I must be overlooking the link to write you…
January 7, 2014 at 6:50 pm
TW, oneh20: I very much appreciate the candor and forgiveness expressed. Means a lot.
January 7, 2014 at 9:04 pm
I think I was a little defensive myself, but amen, God is so good.
January 7, 2014 at 6:58 pm
January 7, 2014 at 7:52 pm
TW and one20……Praise the LORD……
January 7, 2014 at 9:02 pm
January 7, 2014 at 8:57 pm
The problem I usually enounter with women online is that they read “emotions” into my posts that aren’t there. It happens quite often on my local online HS group, mostly from those who have never met me in person.
I, a woman, usually tend to be blunt, to the point with a straight face, so I appreciate T.W.’s posts. I think this is why I have problems with women’s Bible studies today, because they’re so full of emotion…the authors use their feelings and emotions as an authority and guide for interpreting scripture.
When someone mentioned Ann Voskamp’s book, One Thousand Gifts, I took the time to look her up and read some exerpts from the book. Too gushy for me and I had to reach for the barf bag when she said in chp. 11, “I fly to Paris and discover how to make love to God,” (pg. 201)…insert
Her writings point to “panentheism”, but that’s another rabbit trail…..
I was taught by my mom that feelings should follow facts, not the other way around.
So…I’m agreement with T.W. about Mykl, because in forums or other places, we’d call him (Mykl) a troll.
January 8, 2014 at 4:42 pm
I agree with you! I also have trouble with women’s bible studies.
January 6, 2014 at 11:22 am
Whoa. Somebody needs to get on on over to Nolan Manteuful’s public Facebook page. Quite the ex VF intern tussle going on over there.
19th century insults are a-flying. Bible verses being thrown at will.
Somebody’s mad & I think there is another story brewing.
January 6, 2014 at 11:25 am
face slapping with gloves and drawn swords?????
January 6, 2014 at 11:39 am
Nolan seems to think that Peter Bradrick is a coward for suddenly going silent. Others have chimed in.
Lots of recognizable VF names in the comments.
Per AndyEmily Bradrick, “…you will loathe the looseness of your haughty tongue.” Plus discussions of “folly” etc.
January 6, 2014 at 12:05 pm
Who is Nolan M
January 6, 2014 at 12:31 pm
His family was in the inner circle at BCA. Mom did some voice over work/narrating of books for VF.
January 6, 2014 at 12:36 pm
And IF I remember correctly, there was some kind of joint venture with Nolan(or his brother?) and Joshua Phillips. Something to do with Ballyntine the brave? Or Godly boyhood? Something along those lines.
January 6, 2014 at 12:41 pm
January 6, 2014 at 12:55 pm
Follow on FB from Nolan’s page to Christopher Gills page and read Nolan’s comment on Christopher Gill’s page in regards to college, FIC and such. Quite interesting/
January 6, 2014 at 2:35 pm
It’s very interesting indeed. Nolan’s sister just married into the JG family. I do not fore see her leaving THE FIC of the SA area. I wish she/they would—-and RUN, at that.
January 6, 2014 at 3:25 pm
JG the cougar JG?
January 6, 2014 at 3:36 pm
Never mind. Yep. I see that Clara M. just married Dillon G. on Jan. 4.
There are none so blind as those who will not see.
January 6, 2014 at 3:39 pm
Poor, poor clueless girl.
What a mother in law she will have.
January 7, 2014 at 2:34 pm
just a shadow Says:
January 6, 2014 at 3:36 pm
Never mind. Yep. I see that Clara M. just married Dillon G. on Jan. 4.
There are none so blind as those who will not see.
JAS: with a “No gossip” rule, do you really think that that M family knows of JG’s filanderings? Remember, these young people are very naive…..and not thinking with a clear mind.
January 7, 2014 at 8:53 pm
Well, honestly I think just about everybody who is in the SA area who ever had anything to do with BCA or the sister churches( and still has any contact with those families) has heard about the goings on with JG. I know it’s been the topic of conversation for at least 2 years. I’ve heard it from numerous people over the last 2-3 years. It really wasn’t kept quiet – not that they didn’t try to clamp down with the gossip rules, but JG’s behavior was so shocking & overt that there was much whispering, then talking, then hand wringing, then, “what should we do?!”, and finally, “we’re not inviting her anymore” etc. There has been community angst about the JG behavior for 2-3 years.
January 7, 2014 at 10:21 pm
WHY oh WHY wouldn’t they do anything about her behavior? Maybe she was “getting some” from DP on the side too but I can’t believe it was allowed to continue like that………I was told she was just a very friendly and outgoing person…….
January 8, 2014 at 9:12 am
A neighbor of Doug Phillips has shared with Jen and I that Jennifer Grady was seen to show up multiple times at the Phillips’ home after Beall and the kids had left the home. Any pastor with a lick of common sense knows to never be alone with another woman, whether it be at home, in the church office with the door closed, in a hotel room, etc. since that’s exactly how extra-marital affairs are conducted. Even if nothing is going on you just don’t do it for appearance sake (1 Thes 5:22). It screams “Adultery!”
If Jennifer Grady and Doug Phillips had reasonable cause for Jennifer to be in the Phillips home it should have only happened when Beall was there. The fact that it happened multiple times, that there was a pattern of her showing up after Beall and the kids had left, leads one to the inevitable conclusion that they were, in all likelihood, having an affair. Jen and I have reason to believe that something even worse was going on, but we’re not at liberty to discuss that at this time.
January 7, 2014 at 10:47 pm
That was the question on every one’s lips that I heard about the JG issue from – “Why is she being protected? Why no elder rebuke/church discipline?”
That is still the question that is unanswered.
Why was the situation allowed to go on with out so much as a hand slap for years? *YEARS*
Why the continued “blind eye” when so many families finally did have the courage to speak up?
Why were those families threatened with excommunication?
But the woman in question was allowed to go on her merry way
with nary a cross word spoken to her?
That is the question.
January 8, 2014 at 9:31 am
TW – In your opinion (not binding here…just purely asking your opinion), will a time come when you will be free to reveal all that you know/suspect/believe? Or will some things just always be a mystery, at least as far as the general public reading here will know?
January 8, 2014 at 10:14 am
Politicians like Doug Phillips are very good at keeping their evil deeds hidden from public exposure. They do so through various techniques. One of Doug’s favorites is to threaten to sue anyone who would out him. But people are starting to wise up and are recognizing that his legal threats are mostly bluster and bluff. The last thing Doug Phillips would do is file a lawsuit in which his own evil deeds would be exposed in Discovery.
Another favorite ploy of politicians like Doug to keep people concealing his dirty secrets is to have dirt on everyone else. Politicians do that by using sex (girls and boys, sometimes underage), porn, booze, drugs and bribes. Once you get someone on video in a compromising situation you can control them and keep them silent indefinitely. It’s the oldest political trick in the book because it’s so simple and it works so easily, at least on those who lack common sense. His own interns, and several Vision Forum employees, are a classic case in point.
Given enough time I think there’s a strong probability the whole sordid Phillips mess will come tumbling out of the closet. All it will take is one significant insider to grow a conscience. Doug Phillips has destroyed the faith of many of his employees and interns (not to mention BCA members) and seared the consciences of many. But God’s power to reveal is far more powerful than Doug Phillips’ talents to conceal.
Here’s a prayer that I pray daily that I hope others will join me in:
“Dear Lord, you see all and you know all. You know how Doug Phillips has ravaged the lives of so many of your sheep. They are your sheep that you made for your glory and to fulfill your purposes. But Doug Phillips has co-opted them for his personal agenda and led them far from your path. He has conned and deceived them. He has plundered and swindled them. He has destroyed their faith and turned them from you. He has turned hearts of children from their parents, driving them into rebellion and unbelief by the heavy burden of legalism. He has divided churches. He has plundered businesses. He has defrauded “Cassandra” and cheated on his wife for many years. He has made himself a hypocrite of hypocrites. He has taken advantage of and cheated countless workman of their wages in his business. He has seared his own conscience and the consciences of many others. He has caused incalculable harm to the Body of Christ Jesus. The very gifts and talents that you gave him to glorify You he has used to glorify and enrich himself. In so doing he has become a blasphemer. Lord God, you are a God of justice. Please bring this blasphemer to justice in all respects. May all of his evil deeds come out in such a dramatic way that all other wolves in sheep’s clothing see it and tremble in fear. Use Doug Phillips as an example of your great and awesome justice, and the great love you have for your people. In Jesus name, amen.”
January 8, 2014 at 12:54 pm
So, T.W., should we consider that all of that expensive video equipment was used to film more than just Hazardous Adventures?
January 8, 2014 at 3:31 pm
Walking in Freedom, such as ?
January 8, 2014 at 3:56 pm
…such as… “Once you get someone on video in a compromising situation you can control them and keep them silent indefinitely. It’s the oldest political trick in the book because it’s so simple and it works so easily, at least on those who lack common sense. His own interns, and several Vision Forum employees, are a classic case in point.”
January 8, 2014 at 8:06 pm
WIF, that is definitely one possibility.
January 8, 2014 at 10:06 am
I am wondering WHY so many conservative reformed folks are still FB friends with JG ??? Surely they know? 😦 Maybe they forgot that they are linked to her…. and duggie wuggie too !
January 8, 2014 at 11:26 am
Why friends with JG on FB? And why still friends with DP on FB?
January 8, 2014 at 3:06 pm
Everyone has too many fb friends these days to even realize who they are friends with there, possibly. But my understanding is that not all of the accusations against JG are true, though believed by many in SA, which I can see happening as she was a very pretty woman in a very fundie crowd. We should all be careful when its just hearsay. Through the years I’ve heard stuff about me that was so absolutely fascinating that it would have been laughable if it didn’t do so much damage, but it was still utterly untrue.
January 8, 2014 at 10:19 am
Oh, yes. They know. Looking at the friends on her page, I know those people know. I’m not guessing. I KNOW they know.
They are still afraid to rock the boat, I guess.
Or they just really don’t care about sexual morality as much as they say they do.
Or they care more for playing nice and going to the next community party.
Or they want to pretend that everything in the community is just fine b/c they want to continue the fantasy. They liked the fantasy & were invested in it & have their kids invested in it.
They weren’t ready for playtime to end.
So they put their fingers in their ear and go, “la-la-la-la. I can’t hear you!”
It’s puzzling to me as well.
January 8, 2014 at 10:24 am
Plus, JG threw some *really* kewl parties doncha know?
Some over the top reformation parties with fancy costumes, parading, trebuchets, games, and fun for all!
That girl knows how to play dress up & do it right, doncha know?
(Gee, we kind of miss those parties. I havent gotten to use my reformation costume in awhile …Maybe we should stay Facebook friends…)
January 8, 2014 at 10:58 pm
JAS and others that were around JG:
WHAT specifically did she do that made ya’ll uncomfortable? can you give some examples as to why she made so many uneasy?
January 9, 2014 at 11:21 am
I am hoping this ends up under the JG thread. This is a question in response to Oneh20 where she/he stated, “But my understanding is that not all of the accusations against JG are true, though believed by many in SA, which I can see happening as she was a very pretty woman in a very fundie crowd” Would you be willing to elaborate or share exactly what of the accusations against JG are not true? We are curious as ones who saw much, what we have heard we feel and did see as true and have not heard what might be untrue.There is just so much going on here and in this community it is hard to know as we cannot and have not obviously been everywhere. So we are curious if there are other things going around or more things and if so what and why they may be untrue. Thank you.
January 9, 2014 at 1:29 pm
Yes, I would like to know what is not true as well, since I have heard from MANY in the community that everything in the article was quite accurate.
January 9, 2014 at 2:38 pm
Just curious, who is “we”?
After I wrote I felt I might have said too much – or shouldn’t have said anything to begin with. I can’t answer directly because I would need to talk with the person who gave me the information first as I might be saying something that was meant to be private. I think its okay to say that I was informed that what a lot of people might see as an outgoing, fun personality, was seen by more conservative married women in BCA as flirting. I’ve witnessed how easily someone can be seriously maligned out of jealousy, so it seemed plausible.
January 9, 2014 at 3:40 pm
Oneh20, We is referring to my spouse and myself. Thanks.
January 9, 2014 at 3:43 pm
January 6, 2014 at 12:06 pm
May God keep Nolan safe and help him to expose the truth that sets people free.
January 7, 2014 at 10:02 am
Nolan, I believe knows quite a bit and should talk with Mr. Eston and/or Jen… soon. Seems they want him to be quiet according to the FB thread.
January 8, 2014 at 4:25 pm
Nolan is a nut……..and talks in riddles where no one can understand what he says. He’s dangerous…….very dangerous and gives homeschooling a very bad name.
January 8, 2014 at 8:00 pm
Nolan used to be a VERY good friend to my son, and was a great kid! I’m not quite following his train of thought today, but I do see that he is opposed to people making money in ministry. He’s on the right track there!
January 8, 2014 at 10:57 pm
he had several good points………then he goes into circles. I can understand where he says that people like SB aren’t pointing to Christ and it’s ALL about SB……..but then when confronted it’s all in circles and riddles
January 6, 2014 at 2:06 pm
Do you have a link for that?
January 7, 2014 at 2:26 pm
https://www.facebook.com/nolan.manteufel?fref=ts here’s his fb.
January 6, 2014 at 11:59 am
If anyone is wondering why VF is still sending out emails I will put my two cents in as I used to make money on the internet. A VERY valuable asset of any business is the “list” of people who gave their emails either by newsletter or by purchasing. This is called a target market (people who are interested in what you are selling) They are more than likely affiliates of the books and such they are now sending out emails. That means that if you purchase a book from the link they provided in the email, the software tracks it and Doug will get a commission. Or, and I can’t believe this is true, they are being paid by the company to send marketing material to VF lists. I can’t believe that is true because I think that most do not want to be associated with DP anymore. Either way, it is a slimy way to take advantage of those who may not know about this whole DP thing. I had no idea and I have been homeschooling for 22 years. Thankfully I saw a facebook post.
January 6, 2014 at 12:32 pm
Doesn’t look much like repentance, does it?
January 6, 2014 at 2:43 pm
No, it doesn’t.
It looks, in fact, more & more like a game being played by someone with dollar signs in their eyes…..
January 6, 2014 at 12:39 pm
NCFIC’s latest post on keeping pastors accountable. Presumably related to Mr. Phillips:
January 6, 2014 at 1:23 pm
Nope “Just a Shadow” sure doesn’t. But I am not surprised based upon what I have seen so far.
January 6, 2014 at 1:59 pm
Yes, clearly a reaction to the Doug Phillips debacle. I wish I could believe the sincerity of Scott Brown in writing it. But my sources tell me that Scott Brown is just another wolf in sheep’s clothing out to make a buck off well-meaning but gullible Christians. His personal history is perhaps not as scandalous as Doug Phillips, but it is hypocritical none the less. Scott Brown feigns accountability to his elders and congregation, but that accountability is every bit the sham as was Doug Phillips’ so-called accountability.
January 6, 2014 at 3:17 pm
This is classic SB BS, frame the discussion in a way that alludes to a problem, but never identify it and never take any accountability for it. This is meant for the sole purpose of saying “I called it, now don’t look at me”
Scott, the whole of your life for the past 10 years defied what you just wrote. Repent,
January 6, 2014 at 5:55 pm
What puzzles me is why this film of DP advertising the NCFIC Road Trip was posted on their web-site on Oct 15
yet SB has admitted he knew about DP’s behaviour in September according to this quote from TW Eston in “Doug Phillips’ Mentor and Spiritual Father Speaks Out”…. ‘It has also been a year of great sorrow. The burdens have been particularly heavy since September, when I learned of the infidelities of Doug Phillips spanning many years.’
I had saved links to several other DP videos on the NCFIC web-site but they have been very recently removed.. I guess this one will be soon, too.
January 6, 2014 at 8:00 pm
looking at the background, dress etc that looks like it was filmed during the Memorial day celebration that’s held at Scott Brown’s place. So it was probably done the end of May, before Scott knew, or SAYS he knew.
January 6, 2014 at 8:15 pm
DP even said on memorial day
January 6, 2014 at 8:24 pm
Yes, it may have been filmed much earlier, the point I want to make is that, as per the NCFIC website, see below, they uploaded it on 15 October, ie AFTER Sept. when SB says he learned about the goings-on.
January 7, 2014 at 10:55 am
Below his article, it says “0 comments”, “start the discussion”, and “be the first to comment”.
In Brown’s Newspeak, I take these to mean “Comments are Closed”.
January 6, 2014 at 6:29 pm
I came across this link regarding Scott Brown: Statement of Biblical Rebuke for Scott T. Brown and Jason Dohm” at https://ephesians511.wordpress.com/2007/09/27/rebuke-of-scott-brown/ What do you all make of it? I’m fairly new to this controversy, so if his relationship with this church has been resolved, please let me know. Thanks.
January 6, 2014 at 9:19 pm
That website has been around for years. They have a count-down timer that I presume would take down if they believed the issue resolved.
January 6, 2014 at 9:55 pm
Angela, I can assure you that the site is very accurate to the best of my knowledge. Scott has not repented to this day. He is now an ‘Elder’ of Hope Baptist and I find it very ironic that he would have this written into his membership covenant. Actually It is shocking to me that he would have this in the membership covenant after the way he fled TBC to avoid church discipline.
We will, if necessary, submit to biblically defined and regulated church discipline for the purpose of reconciliation with God and man and we accept that refusing to communicate or to flee is to usurp the power of the church and break this covenant. Matt. 18:15:20, Heb 12:11, 1 Cor 5:1-13, 1 John 2:19, 1 Timothy 1:20, 2 Cor 2:1-11, Luke 17:4
January 7, 2014 at 8:48 am
Thanks! It’s still ticking…
January 7, 2014 at 12:06 pm
Scott Brown is implicitly telling Doug’s church (BCA) to publicly rebuke Phillips: “If an elder has a national or international presence it may be necessary for the rebuke to go beyond the local congregation to cover the reach of his ministry. Therefore, Paul’s use of the term “all” should be defined by the scope of influence, with the rebuke extending across the full range of the elder’s influence. It follows that if a local church elder is also a national leader, it is up to the local church to deliver a national rebuke.”
Will he publicly call them out for not doing it yet?
January 8, 2014 at 11:06 am
Shouldn’t Scott Brown himself rebuke Doug Phillips since he is a board member of Vision Forum Ministries? Isn’t accountability the responsibility and point of having board members?
January 8, 2014 at 11:16 am
I couldn’t agree more. Scott Brown showed himself to be derelict in his duties as the Director of the Vision Forum Ministries board of directors by sending Peter Bradrick and Joe Morecraft to confront Doug Phillips in his sin. Furthermore, Scott Brown showed himself to be a coward. From everything I’ve witnessed and heard being a derelict coward is Scott Brown’s character, and much worse.
Being a derelict coward makes it difficult for me to believe that Scott Brown didn’t know for a long time about the sin in Doug Phillips’ camp. A derelict coward would, true to his character, do nothing about it until circumstances dictated that he had to act. But even in acting he sent others, men with absolutely no responsibilities or position in Vision Forum Ministries, to do what he was morally and legally obligated to do himself.
January 8, 2014 at 11:18 am
DP should be publicly rebuked by anyone who helped him spread his message & helped him gain fame in the world.
There should also be apologies made for never fully vetting such an influential speaker.
There should be apologies made for allowing hypocrisy to stand for so long ( i.e. if your marriage is not approved of by the bride’s parents, then don’t go around teaching courtship)
Those who need to publicly rebuke him would include:
All the elders at BCA
All the elders at the sister churches both in the hill country and in Austin
All the board members of VF
The Kendrick Brothers
Leaders of the state homeschooling conventions & organizations
Every single person listed here owes the public a public statement concerning their relationship with DP.
January 8, 2014 at 12:01 pm
Add to your list in order of personal culpability,
Don Hart, DP’s personal attorney and VFM board member
Josh Wean, VFM board member and CFO
Bob Sarratt, BCA Elder
Michael Gobart, BCA Elder and Jennifer Grady’s “counselor”
Wesley Strackbein, VFM Managing Editor, Public Relations Liar, Personal Hatchetman to DP
Peter Bradrick, Doug Phillips’ “Personal Assistant”
Bob Renaud, Doug Phillips’ “Personal Assistant”
Some of these men were also members of DP’s black suited goon strike force that he sent to threaten people. Every one of these men have blood on their hands. They need own up to what they’ve done and repent publicly.
January 8, 2014 at 12:20 pm
And add Baucham to the list.
January 8, 2014 at 12:41 pm
Don’t think I would hold my breath waiting for a response from any of them. Many of them seem to have their own skeletons in their closets and a public rebuke of a fellow leader might just lead to more exposure of the things they’re trying to hide.
January 8, 2014 at 12:47 pm
I will say that the “fringe” people didn’t know in detail or much of what was going on. They were in Doug’s “strategic circle” and only called them when he needed them etc. They include, Kirk Cameron, Ken Ham & Voddie. Voddie and his family have distanced themselves and almost completely cut themselves off from Doug several years ago.
Bill Potter is DEFINITELY in that “inner circle” list, along with all of the second list. There was NO way they couldn’t be around Doug for that long and that many hours in the day and not see it. I KNOW that they saw things, were told it was nothing and now they know they were lied to. They are all scrambling, ducking and hiding the other direction. Many are running away and not even acknowledging that they worked for, know or knew Doug!
January 8, 2014 at 3:59 pm
I don’t think Kirk Cameron or the Kendricks s/b on the list – they were simply guests/speakers at events.
Members of the Patriarchy oligarchy that s/b on the list (in addition to those already included) include Geoff Botkin, Kevin Swanson, and RC Sproul, Jr. They all supported each other, they all promoted each other, etc. along with Doug Phillips. Every single conference, same speakers, and same message. And same nocturnal activities.
Then there are other members of the Vision Forum staff such as Kevin Turley (and many others) that managed the interns and managed and attended all of the conferences and faith and freedom tours. Where was Kevin when Doug was wooing Cassandra in extravagant ways all over the world at these events? I understand Doug ALWAYS had his own room and never stayed with his family in their room(s). This way he could get more work done, practice his speeches, etc. (Wink). Sure Doug. Thanks Kevin for protecting him. This reminds of how the state troopers got rooms and girls for Bill Clinton as governor of AR. So Kevin, the interns, the “personal assistants” had to know didn’t they? How could they not know? Just speculation on my part, but come on guys, fess up!
January 8, 2014 at 10:51 pm
I understand Doug ALWAYS had his own room and never stayed with his family in their room(s). This way he could get more work done, practice his speeches, etc. (Wink). Sure Doug.
January 8, 2014 at 10:40 am
Yet another posting on disciplining church leaders at the NCFIC: https://ncfic.org/blog/posts/disciplining-an-elder-alexander-strauch-weighs-in
January 8, 2014 at 11:04 am
Thank you, Shawn! I appreciate that VERY much!
January 6, 2014 at 4:52 pm
I’ve been thinking about something… As it’s the beginning of a new year, we’re starting to read the Bible in a year with our family and have just read the first 17 chapters of Genesis this past week. The phrase “He went into her and he knew her…” is used over and over, but it’s always associated with the phrase “and she bore a child.” Just wondering…is it possible that perhaps DP thinks he didn’t “know” Cassandra because she did not (presumably) bear his child? Hmmm…
January 7, 2014 at 8:17 am
This is what I have speculated from the beginning. Every time scripture says “he knew her” it follows with “and they begat.” It could even mean that he used a con. and kept his semen from entering her body – therefore there was no chance for begetting therefore he didn’t really “know her in the biblical sense.”
January 7, 2014 at 10:07 am
Hm – and I thought I “knew” DP in a biblical sense – and was DEAD WRONG. (joke)
January 7, 2014 at 6:42 am
T.W.. I was wondering if I read your articles correctly. In this article you state that Doug was caught at Cassandras parents house in Jan. 2013, by 2 of her family members and in your article titled Doug Phillips: Affair or Criminal Clergy Sexual Abuse? on Dec. 11 you state that In January 2013 ” Doug was literally caught with his pants down, in his home, by one or more Phillips family members. To the best of our knowledge it was Beall and or Josh who caught them”. Was he caught twice? Did he get caught at his home than continue at Cassandras parents home?
Thanks for your time
January 7, 2014 at 6:57 am
I just read your *Authors note at the end of the Dec. 11 article about the chronological order was inaccurate. Sorry that I missed that..
But did he get caught twice? Is so, that speaks volumes of the people that have concealed it.
January 7, 2014 at 7:46 am
A Berean –
TW addressed this in the comments. I’m no good at linking or I’d link you to the direct comment. In his comment, TW said that there were 2 separate incidents of them being caught. One time was in the Phillips home, and one time was in Cassandra’s parents home. The second one apparently happened AFTER he had “repented” to his church and stepped down as elder. I don’t remember which “being caught” incident TW said came first.
January 7, 2014 at 8:08 am
Just A Shadow,
Thanks for clarifying. I have not been able to read all the comments do to time constraints.
January 7, 2014 at 8:51 am
Yes, he was caught twice. I completely agree “that speaks volumes of the people that have concealed it.”
January 7, 2014 at 8:49 am
The second incident actually happened in February in Doug’s home. At the time I posted the article I only knew of the second incident and nothing of the first. Later it came to my attention that Doug had been caught in the act in Cassandra’s home just prior in January.
In summation, Doug and Cassandra were caught not just once, but twice, the first time in January 2013 in Cassandra’s home by two of her family members. The second time occurred in February 2013 in Doug’s home by one or more of Doug’s family members.
January 7, 2014 at 8:21 am
It amazed me how so called Christian’s have become tolerant of sin, sin and more sin. We are to love what God love and hate what God hates.
I do not know if you will see this comment but Mykl, you are not a wise man.
We (believer’s) are to judge righteous judgment within by the Word of God John 7:24. We are not to judge by our own self righteous motives, our own standard or with holier than thou attitude.
We shall know them by their fruit Matt 7:16……Does DP tree bear good fruit? No
You ask is this our business? Yes, it is our business, God’s word makes it our business? You say you do not know why you friends left BCA or VF……You do not know because you do not want to know…..
Well, read up because you may find out why they left…abuse.
DP committed adultery, he has hurt thousands of people within the body of Christ, he has scattered the sheep, he has hurt his wife and children, and Cassandra, he has cast stumbling blocks before God’s people, he has lied, he has stolen from other people, DP is a wolf….plain and simple. We are commanded to flee from him, mark him, beware of him, and so forth. Jesus himself warned us over and over to beware of false teachers.
What TW and Jen write is not slander because DP is busted.
January 7, 2014 at 8:35 am
Yes and amen to that, Teresa!
We are to mark them well.
January 7, 2014 at 8:34 am
I found a good article from a homeschool dad on the VF scandal. It is VERY long, but well thought out & worth reading:
The official title of the blog is, “Diary of an Autodidact”.
*WARNING*: The author uses crude language in a few places, but I don’t think it discredits his ideas.
The author raises some very good points. He was homeschooled, his wife was homeschooled and now they homeschool their 5 children.
He addresses many important points not the least of which is the hijacking of the homeschool message by DP, Gothard, SB, J. Thompson, Swanson, Baucham & others.
How in the world did this small group of small minded men get such a stranglehold over all of homeschooling?
Homeschoolers, we must begin to push back against this agenda by these men. We must begin to contact our state organizations and DEMAND that other speakers ( who can actually speak to *educational* technique etc) replace these Patriarchalists.
We need to get organized and begin to push back. Otherwise, we should not be surprised when the State begins to sniff around and demand accountability via new laws.
We better get busy policing our own. This madness has gone on for far too long.
Pray about how you can help in your state. I am.
As homeschoolers we have been well trained in how to pick up the phone & demand action.
NOW IS THE TIME TO USE THAT TRAINING. The convention season begins in less than a month.
January 7, 2014 at 9:43 am
JAS, for many years, I led a very successful homeschool support group where my emphasis was teaching how to homeschool using natural methods. The goal was to teach our children to love learning and to think for themselves.
I’ve often considered teaching those methods on the homeschool convention platform.
January 7, 2014 at 2:33 pm
Jen, Please do!
January 7, 2014 at 10:21 am
Great food for thought! The Maxwell Family was at our state convention a few years ago and it made me very uncomfortable.
January 7, 2014 at 11:27 am
Call your state convention. Tell them you want speakers who speak about something other than Patriarchy. Get the word out.
January 7, 2014 at 12:52 pm
Unfortunately, getting your convention to change is not as easy as picking up a phone. I participated in planning a state convention for over a decade but no longer work with the organization. There is one family that has been involved since the inception of the state organization and their vision controls what is seen and heard at the state convention. They gather like-minded people around them (most have been influenced by the people who have populated this state’s convention for 20+ years) and champion their agenda for what homeschooling (well Christian homeschooling) should look like.
They have their vision for what homeschooling families should be and they pursue that vision. They do not care what others want. They ignore requests from attenders that they make the convention focus more on how to educate children and less on how you should run your family. They include limited educational topics primarily to draw new people to come to the convention where they can expose these newcomers to their homeschool vision/agenda. They screen all speakers and product purveyors to make sure that they all agree with their vision/agenda.
If you want your state convention to change, you’ll either have to change the leadership (which is difficult if the state organization doesn’t have an elected board) or start your own convention. Still… if everyone stops attending these state conventions maybe they’ll change. But I wouldn’t hold your breath.
January 7, 2014 at 11:39 am
The Maxwells are super uber Gothardites…who many claim that Gothard is the “godfather” of patriarchy. As I see it, Gothard revived patriarchy among Christians and DP/VF marketed it.
January 8, 2014 at 1:00 am
My first view into this very conservative and, really, countercultural world was in the late 80’s through Mary Pride and her book “The Way Home”. Having been raised in a secular family I was flabbergasted by her ideas…no contraceptives, no school, no COLLEGE?! I had NEVER heard such radical things. Where does she fit into all this?
January 8, 2014 at 3:17 am
IIRC, she went from one extreme (feminism) to the opposite extreme (patriarchy)? I, too, read her book, but that was a *long* time ago and I don’t remember all of it except the above.
January 8, 2014 at 5:50 am
Mary Pride has fairly recently republished The Way Home. I liked that book in the main. I didn’t find Patriarchy in it… unless I have forgotten. Here are her recent, helpful, thoughts on “Patriarchy” – you might be surprised!
January 8, 2014 at 9:05 pm
meginoz, that was an excellent article by Mary Pride! I totally agree that Kathryn Joyce was connecting dots in her book that were never meant to be connected, and Mary Pride was one.
January 8, 2014 at 11:02 am
That is interesting! I like Mary Pride’s right-up-front statement, that in a christian home, “Jesus is Lord, not Dad”
January 16, 2014 at 5:35 pm
Speaking of marketing I see DP material is still on Mike Bradricks Christian Heritage site, even after what happened to Peter. Oh well, monies money.
January 16, 2014 at 6:16 pm
Andrew, I have noticed that some homeschool organizations have removed his materials for sale, while others are still carrying them. It’s a mixed bag out there right now while confusion reigns.
January 7, 2014 at 11:58 am
Just a shadow: you asked a good question: “How in the world did this small group of small minded men get such a stranglehold over all of homeschooling?”
In my opinion, there is not single answer but in my experience with the second largest homeschooling organization in America such views (hyper-patriarchy, family-integrated churches, homeschooling-only, etc.) were able to gain a foot hold because the organization’s leadership wanted to. It is not a conspiracy but a filling of a power-vacuum: people were looking for help and/or leadership, others came along and started a state-wide organization, people were excited and joined. Those who started it (or the second or third generation of leaders) already had peculiar beliefs and were able over time to propagate them. And too many h/s kept attending anyway.
To be sure, many times there was no overt “hey, I’m a patriarchy guy and I’ve got my version of the family I wish to convince you of” (if only they did). No. Rather, through manipulation (Phillips) or b/c they really believe their version to be the correct version these views were propagated by innuendo, implication, tone, gestures and lifestyle (think all those “interns” working for Phillips at the conferences). I write about this atmosphere of nascent legalism, Homeschool apostates, homeschoolers and legalism. So it was subtle and highly influential because of that subtlety.
For instance, Prefer Christian schools? Well, the educational approach most consistent with the Bible is homeschooling.
This is but another way to bind consciences however implicitly. The subtle form and de facto effect of this assertion can be brought to light by a syllogism:
1. The educational approach most consistent with the Bible is homeschooling.
2. Christians should follow the most consistent educational approach with the Bible.
3. Ergo: Christians should homeschool.
Most h/s I think would deny any overt declaration that families who do not h/s are in sin. But their rhetoric (usually borrowed from these speakers) belies that.
At the same time, many h/s (I think) were open to these leaders filling in a power-vacuum in the 90s b/c they were struggling with churches and cultures that rejected them. Or they were getting their proverbial backs scratched by the high-praise the Phillips and others would offer h/s (you are the next generation to save America!–see Phillips and Co. at their summer history conference, hereand here). If h/s are taught they are special by these self-designated leaders, it becomes harder to say ‘no’ to them. Furthermore, I wonder, how many h/s fell into listening to these men b/c they were already uncomfortable at their own churches? These men (intentionally or not) have become a pastor to too many h/s. And of course, there are h/s (like any groups of Christians), that simply have little to no discernment and swallow whole camels while straining at gnats.
These are my personal observation as a pastor, homeschooler and friend of homeschoolers for 18 years.
January 7, 2014 at 12:32 pm
Shawn, your observations are right on the money. Please permit me the liberty to amend your syllogism, based on my own observations of Doug Phillips and his self-righteous ilk:
1. The only educational approach that is consistent with the Bible is homeschooling.
2. Christians must follow the only consistent educational approach with the Bible.
3. Ergo: Christians must homeschool, and those who don’t are disobeying scripture and are in sin.
This is implicit in Doug Phillips’ teaching and the teachings of Kevin Swanson, RC Sproul Jr, etc. This I believe is a major reason why at least some of the followers of Phillips/Swanson/Sproul depart to Doug Wilson’s camp on the question of home schooling — Doug Wilson allows for private Christian schools by marketing his “classical Christian education”, and it’s proved to be rather lucrative for him.
This is one area where I’d find myself in some agreement with Doug Wilson. Not everyone can home school and, in my view, not everyone should. There are plenty of home school parents who are leaving their children ill-equipped for college (unless you’re a girl, since it doesn’t matter anyway, because girls aren’t supposed to go to college) or equipped to face the work force (unless you’re a girl because it’s not “biblically normative” for girls to work outside the home anyway). Private Christian schools often provide the best possible option.
My revised syllogism applies across the board to all the other Phillips/Swanson/McDonald/Botkin/Chancey/Brown/Sproul pet projects in pursuit of self-righteousness — Patriarchy, Quiverfull, Stay At Home Daughters, Family Integrated Churches, et al. Doing these things is a mark of a real Christian. Those who don’t do them are disobeying scripture and being sinful.
January 7, 2014 at 1:02 pm
Actually Doug Wilson started as a
Christian School advocate. There was a time when he discouraged homeschooling. People change over time and their convictions on extra-biblical concerns do as well. It is up to us to gauge what is wisdom and what is Biblical mandate.
January 7, 2014 at 3:46 pm
Very true – and sad. I know firsthand – and painfully so. I appreciate your desire to protect people from legalism.
January 7, 2014 at 10:48 pm
T.W. I agree that the 3 point syllogism is used by all you mention and then some. American Vision (Gary DeMar and Joel McDurmon) abide by the same 3 point syllogism but add Christian School to the mix. A few years back when the discussion came up on their blog. My wife disagreed with them and stated that public schooling is an option of Christian liberty. She was prey to the hungry lions who frequent that site. She wrote a personal letter to Gary Demar which he then preceded to read on his daily program and then picked it apart on air to say she has no liberty to send her kids to a public school. In their theonomic world , Christians who send their children to public school are guilty of “Christian Thievery” (stealing their tax dollars to publicly educate your child ) and the sin of disobedience to Deut. 6:7. Those who continue in these sins are probably not Christians and will spend eternity in hell. Doug Wilson wrote the forward to Joel McDurmon’s book “What Would Jesus Drink” I don’t see American Vision being to far removed from some of the groups and leaders mentioned on this blog as far as legalism goes.
January 8, 2014 at 8:41 am
Darrell, I think American Vision’s position is that public schooling is inherently legalistic and thus wrong. It relies on the coercive force of civil government to steal money (via property taxes). Public schooling is a violation of the eighth commandment: “Thou shalt not steal.” Forcing people to pay for something they don’t want and don’t support is immoral. I don’t think AV has a problem with people voluntarily banding together to fund schools. The issue is morality, not *in* public schools (although that is an issue), but *of* public schools.
January 7, 2014 at 12:40 pm
EXCELLENT points, Pastor Mathis! I saw the same thing happen to some of the homeschool families I knew, and I heard the same rhetoric being thrown out there to subtly shame others who don’t do the same things they do.
“1. The educational approach most consistent with the Bible is homeschooling.
2. Christians should follow the most consistent educational approach with the Bible.
3. Ergo: Christians should homeschool.”
This, exactly.. But you left out “If you do not homeschool, you probably don’t have a ‘Biblical Worldview.'” Oh, and you aren’t seeking ‘God’s Best’ for your children.” The guilt and manipulation are subtle, but they are there.
January 7, 2014 at 1:41 pm
Shawn, as a Christian Homeschooler for 22 years, you hit the nail on the head! When I started there were no conventions or “leaders”. I read one book by Raymond Moore. It wasn’t until about 12 years ago that homeschooling started being big money and certain people became authorities (supposed) I have to admit, I got caught up in the whole thing for awhile but thankfully, especially with Doug, I saw that they were living high on the horse yet kept asking for money so I just got away from it. You put into words what I was thinking but could not articulate.
January 7, 2014 at 2:52 pm
Hi Shawn, you said [many h/s..were open to these leaders filling in a power-vacuum in the 90s b/c they were struggling with churches and cultures that rejected them.]
That was where my family came in to the knowledge HS’ing and these supposed “leaders”. We would soon “cut & run” from this crowd and go it alone and was able to find a very large church that allowed us to be “invisible” but hear the word of God being preached.
Back in the early days, you could “spot” the legalists a mile away, but now you have to be in the “crowd” to hear the buzz words to know if there are legalists among you.
So far, I’m in a group with moms who use a mixture of online charter schools, public schools, and homeschooling…we co-op classes together that are educational and fun.
We are homeschoolers who happen to be Christians. I do believe God “showed” us this option to educate our children, but I don’t believe on the lines that He commanded us to. Does that make sense? Our viewpoint is different from the legalists viewpoint…I’d put my kids in private school if we could afford it, or put them in public school if we needed to.
January 7, 2014 at 3:04 pm
DaMom, Your distinction that you do not believe h/s a command of God but something you must follow makes sense. Because you are applying God’s law to your unique situation. And a healthy church (and Christians) should respect such a decision. It is called Christian Liberty. Those with a legalistic bent (like Phillips) have a hard time giving others such freedom.
January 8, 2014 at 6:59 am
I think there are two things that were/are at the heart of what happened in homeschooling conventions and so-called leadership. The first was Y2K. It was such an easy way to instill fear in parents and opened the door to so many nutty people to walk through and take over. And you must remember dominionists believe that they are called by God to stand in the gap. I know many believed that Y2K was the means God was providing for them.
Secondly, the pro-homosexuality agenda has grown by leaps and bounds since 2000 and people are so fearful of it and its affect on their children. It has become a rallying point for a wide variety of groups…is a great fundraiser and is a very powerful way to promote patriocentricity.
Finally, I think this needs to be said. If parents make the choice to send children to public school, they need to at least be honest about the dangers of the entire agenda that is the public school system. The whole notion of “sending little missionaries” into a system whose entire agenda is to destroy their Christian faith is naive and foolish. If you make that choice, please do your research so you will know what is being taught and understand the dangers.
January 8, 2014 at 8:59 pm
Thatmom, so you are saying that homeschool conventions are all fear-based? I don’t know about the rest of you, but I’d rather live in victory than in fear!
January 8, 2014 at 9:20 pm
We sent our youngest daughter to Christian school fom K-7. Then we moved to a city that had a very good public school. In her sophomore year , she, with the encouragement of her English class teacher ( a Christian) gave a presentation of why abortion is wrong. After the class 3 students approached her and said they had never heard that point of view before. This was 1999. Fast forward to 2002 at a sorority at a state university. Same daughter was named chaplain of sorority. She went on spring break to look after “her girls” to make sure they didn’t get in trouble. She was and still is a missionary in the current culture. I have a strong willed daughter who is totally sold out for Jesus Christ and is bringing Him into the culture of today. She s now 30, happily married and the mother of 2. And she is involved in the world and reaching the lost. I am so proud of her
January 7, 2014 at 9:16 am
TW and others:
I have been following these threads off on on for a few weeks now. At first I was impressed with your willingness to stand up for the truth and expose the sin. However, I have become disappointed with the intolerance you give for those who do not agree with you.
I see your points, but to treat others as you have, how is that any different than what DP and others did? Did they not try to shut up anyone who did not agree with them by all kinds of negetive remarks?
I see the same thing coming out in here that you are trying to expose. It looks and sounds much the same.
While we may not agree with questions or beliefs of others, why should we be so defensive and intolerant? To have a good debate team you need to have two sides. This blog is allowing only one. Wouldn’t it be better to lovingly engage in discussion with differing views and let those who read see which is the stronger/right view? I mean, if we are right, why do we have to be scared to defend it? By not allowing others to differ, it makes it all another control thing, and less Christ like.
But none the less, this is your blog, you are certainly able to do as you feel. I just thought I’d add my thoughts and those of others who have read in.
Thanks and May God Bless
January 7, 2014 at 10:21 am
Your accusations are so nebulous as to make it impossible for me to respond, other than to say that you couldn’t be more wrong. To equate this blog with Doug Phillips’ tactics, many of which have been outright criminal in nature, only serves to confirm that you have not “been following these threads off on on for a few weeks now”, or at least not with any thoroughness.
If I were anything like Doug Phillips I’d have my own “Executive Protection” team of armed black-suited enforcers. If I were anything like Doug Phillips there would be no comments permitted here at all, like his blog. The comparisons I could make are endless, but I hardly think it necessary, nor do I wish to reinforce in your mind that I am defensive.
Feel free to criticize, or “differ” as you say. I’m open to constructive criticism, but it can’t be constructive if it’s not at least reasonably truthful, specific, factual and substantive.
January 7, 2014 at 11:41 am
Just Truth- Unfortunately, I believe you are referring to Mykyl. Many of us other posters have asked him questions too and he has never responded to them either. I do think he is evasive, whether or not it is purposeful or not I do not know, but TW gave him many instances to answer the questions as asked and he just never seems to be able to do so and takes this whole thing down a rabbit trail.
We were one of the families put on excommunication threat for standing up to these abusive men at BCA and I know that one of the elders believes that if he doesn’t hear it he can’t be held accountable for it so don’t let me hear it. How can you run a church that way, be a deacon or elder and shepherd a church if you are not willing to hear both sides Yes you get put on church discipline at these such churches many times for trying to even tell your side~Frankly they don’t care.
Mykyl wants to participate on this site yet is hurtful to many in the fact hat he will not read all of it as he deems it gossip. Then when he is questioned he does not answer after he states his hard to understand theories. Then my feeling is he maybe should not be here if this is how he feels about it. We have no problem with TW and Jen moderating him. It is the same rules we are all under. He has been given ample opportunities and the rules have been clearly laid out to him.
To us Jen’s story is the major reason we were able to go on after being so hurt at BCA. and that was well before we knew of DP’s affair.Even though we never met her or talked with her back then it was sadly comforting to know we were not alone. This is why those of us need this site. We see so many correlations and such a pattern of abuse from DP and others who have started similar churches and more. If one really did a thorough search out there on the internet, not one of his favorite podium sharers does not have a similar abuse or wacky background story.
As Just a Shadow stated elsewhere on here, it is time we all start speaking up across this nation and put a stop at the home-school conventions to these men, who really are a minority, and have them not speak for us all and to stop them from indoctrinating new home school families and completely stop them from hijacking home-school conferences across the nation! We also need to look at who has gotten into leadership positions in state home-school organizations. It just might further amaze us all.
January 7, 2014 at 11:51 am
As I’ve seen in my lifetime, when women are hurt, there is a need to talk about it, to understand why and find ways to prevent how we can keep from being in that situation again as well as warning others.
January 16, 2014 at 6:32 pm
True! “when women are hurt, there is a need to talk about it” Reminds me of the old saw, “When Momma ain’t happy, ain’t nobody happy!” Yet is also true that trouble with one in the family is trouble with all in the family. So keep coming here, keep talking about these things. Work it out.
Remember we need to be patient with our spouse after coming out of these teachings. For some it is harder to move on, for some it is like, “Oh that was wrong, OK now what?” Husbands who likely led the family into patriarchal mess be patient with wives who are still processing it all. Wives be patient with Mr. Neanderthal, he’s working on it! Remember how long it took to get here.
My wife and I are only just now coming to know the full extent of mistaken ideas we’ve long held, even after we left our abusive situation. Consider the fact that we need to be conscience of the possibility that we sometimes only move a little bit out of error because we’re so indoctrinated into the whole error.
Case in point: the concept of ‘immediate’ obedience and the practice we learned of immediate consequences is only now becoming clear as not always right and certainly not representative of our Loving Father.
When I work with my kids I need to model God’s love, not the heart of Doug P or Scott B, (man I’d hate to live in those households). Some may consider it wishy-washy but it was His kindness that led me to repentance not His hammer. This Dad, raised in the church, finally became a Christian when he came to know God loves him. At 60 years of age. God is soooo good! I was like that woman at the well; I loved to talk religion but came up eternally short on the relationship end of things.
If you’re just now coming out from under these damaging teachings know this: God is with you. He was with you all along and now you will get to comfort those with the same comfort He gave you. Now tell me, how good is that?
Keep talking, keep walking, keep loving!
God bless you all!
January 16, 2014 at 9:19 pm
Andrew, what a breath of fresh air to listen to how God is working in your life!
Thank you for reminding us that everyone will process all this at their own pace and that we need to be patient with one another. Excellent reminder.
January 7, 2014 at 11:54 am
This blog is allowing only one…..really.
TW and Jen have been far more gracious and tolerant than I would be. Perhaps it would be wise for all of us to go read Jen’s Comment Etiquette rules…..because we all at some point have broken the rules for posting comments on her blog.
January 7, 2014 at 12:06 pm
I agree! They are more then gracious! Thank you TW and Jen for all your hard work!
January 7, 2014 at 12:59 pm
Thats true, I did not read the Comment Etiquette rules first.
I should have.
January 7, 2014 at 1:46 pm
Stick around cause most of us here just want the truth. I have been contending for the faith for number of years before and after coming out of deception myself. I have been called a fault finder, heresy hunter, trouble maker, divisive, I’ve been told, Teresa, you can not touch God’s anointed or do the prophets no harm and so on.
False teachers say things like this because they do not want to be accountable to no one, especially God. Not everyone who says LORD LORD will enter. I believe that mouths will drop and lots of fingers will be pointing at preacher/teacher and people who defend false teachers, when the LORD says depart from me, I never knew you. We all need to examine ourselves to make sure we are in the faith and that we are following Jesus of the bible and not another gospel or anther man.
Mykl isn’t no different. He is doing the same thing by trying to make us all, especially TW and Jen feel guilty for gossiping and for exposing the truth about DP. I get the impression, he wants this blog shut down for good.
TW and Jen have a heavy burden, all the time spend writing these article, talking to people on the phone to get inside info to give us the truth. I like the fact that if the information changes, they will let us know and correct it.
I pray for them while contending for the faith. I pray that they stand and keep standing on the truth of God’s word and that they will never back down one bit.
I am rabbling, enough said.
January 7, 2014 at 4:29 pm
Teresa, thank you for your very kind words! What an encouragement that is!
January 7, 2014 at 1:51 pm
Email came today from both NCFIC and Gen w/Vision. Earlybird discount extended for upcoming conference. Maybe there aren’t as many signed up this time around. Cleaned out the inbox today of all Vision Forum and NCFIC and it was interesting to note when Doug’s picture was suddenly replaced by some other speaker in the NCFIC emails. September.
January 7, 2014 at 4:28 pm
BacktotheBible, very interesting. Do you have the dates on those two emails — the one with and the next one without Doug’s pic?
January 7, 2014 at 4:58 pm
8/14 DP right next to SB – The Worship of God Conf.
8/28 DP right next to SB – Master’s Plan for Fatherhood
9/11 DP centered next to SB – The Worship of God Conf.
9/16 DP next to SB – Link to The Family that Worships Together video
9/23 DP centered next to SB – The Worship of God Conf.
9/26 DP gone – replaced by Morecraft – Youth Group Survey
10/10 DP gone – replaced by Morecraft – The Worship of God Conf.
January 7, 2014 at 5:35 pm
B2B, thank you very much!
January 8, 2014 at 11:03 pm
We rec’d Vision Forum email today again (2nd one this year) spamming us to buy a new product. This time it links to “Under Drake’s Flag” – New Audio Drama From The Creative Team That Produced Adventures in Odyssey, Narnia and Lamplighter. Bill Heid, Executive Producer, Heirloom Audio Productions, (A Solutions From Science Company). It is being supported by Glen Beck as well. This looks exactly like something VF would have carried or even produced because it is a Henty novel. I just wish I could figure why DP and or family would still be sending out email under the VF name if it is indeed really closed. The bottom of the email has 2014 copyright VF. Hm.
January 9, 2014 at 8:56 am
The contracts for these emails were in place a long time ago, probably, but it also provides residual income for Doug Phillips through affiliate marketing.
January 9, 2014 at 5:58 pm
That’s what I have concluded. I am almost to the point where I am running away from anything they promote. Over-reactionary I’m sure, but seems like the thing to do.
January 8, 2014 at 12:33 am
I am not sure if this has been shared here yet, but here is a link to an excellent article regarding what Doug Phillips forgot. May none of us forget this also!
January 8, 2014 at 2:54 pm
@ Jen and TW there is quite the debate going on about Scott Brown on Nolan M. Facebook page. Looks like he’s welcoming help from anyone 🙂
January 8, 2014 at 3:30 pm
Sarah, thanks. I read it, but he only accepts comments from friends. It is a bit difficult to interpret his riddles!
January 8, 2014 at 4:16 pm
oh my gosh @jen! I watched a show about getting people out of the FLDS last night with my hubby and it talked about the higher up boys that are going into the “priesthood” are taught to talk in riddles to throw people off. I was reading that and my head was spinning. I was like the dude is talking just like the young man with the FLDS and talking in riddles! He throws enough out there to get people talking but not enough to make a clear bit of sense. He’s off his rocker! There are ways to go about things and ways to not. He’s making BCA, & homeschoolers look reallllllllllllllllllllllllllllly realllllllllllllllllllly bad. Not only that his fb is Public for all to read!
January 8, 2014 at 4:19 pm
He’s young. And likely hurt or confused. I’m certainly not judging whole groups of people by him.
January 8, 2014 at 4:30 pm
sorry but this is way more than just hurt & confused……….he can’t make a complete thought. If you read the thread and most of his threads everyone on there agrees.
January 8, 2014 at 4:48 pm
All the more reason no one is going to take him seriously. Most people have never, ever heard of him, and wouldn’t if it weren’t for this blog. He’s a young guy. He’s got some issues. I’d suggest prayer for him rather than worrying that this kid will impact all of homeschooling. You have to remember that most of the evangelical world has never even heard of DP, much less the names of his interns. Its certainly not something to be alarmed about unless you are alarmed for him personally. Seriously, would you read this and think, “I’d better not homeschool?” 🙂 He should not be where our focus lies.
January 8, 2014 at 4:51 pm
He also studied engineering. Being married to an engineer, I can say that they are their own breed! 🙂
January 8, 2014 at 5:27 pm
He does make sense, albeit a bit cryptic in some ways. I wish he would simply email Mr Eston and unload what he knows. He is holding back and my guess is that he does not trust too many people at this point. I don’t blame him a bit. He seems to care deeply regarding the spiritual condition of others and has little regard for himself. He too needs to know that the Savior, Jesus Christ, loves him…. and if he feels that he had part in any of this mess, that there is forgiveness.
By exposing sin, many will have a chance at release aka freedom.
January 8, 2014 at 3:31 pm
He is accepting any friend requests. And yes I need to read very carefully before commenting 🙂 but it’s a good spot to comment and have VF insiders read it.
January 8, 2014 at 8:07 pm
I would put Nolan on the spot if I were to send him a friend request. If I find that it would be beneficial at some point, I may.
January 9, 2014 at 8:26 am
Interesting that JG’s husband showed up on the thread…..and then all seems quiet now.
January 9, 2014 at 9:00 am
Yes, very interesting.
January 9, 2014 at 9:42 am
Extricating ones self from a tight group is neither easy nor pleasant. Business, family, social life …are all intertwined. Sometimes safety is a factor as well…. or threats regarding family members
January 9, 2014 at 9:56 am
I’m on my phone so I can’t choose where to put this comment. This has nothing to do with the comment above, but I need to say something.
Yesterday must have been a slow news day since someone on another blog decided to attack TW and my blog and try to smear our reputation. I will no longer reply there, so this is my reply if anyone is interested. If you missed the drama yesterday, don’t worry about it. It was totally fabricated.
The issue was regarding the fact that we had emailed a commenter on our blog who left their email address. In our first email exchange one month ago, it was agreed to by all three of us that everything we said between us would be strictly confidential. The commenter also told us that they preferred to email us and so we had several lengthy email conversations, which we have kept private. Apparently, the commenter shared those private emails with another blogger who took them out of context. A couple days ago, this commenter had another email exchange with TW and it was a bit confusing. It turns out that the commenter was sick with a fever and admitted to being confused. In the end, everything was cleared up and all was right with the world. Or so we thought. For some reason, this commenter sent a partial email exchange, which should have been private, to another blogger, who then used this to try to smear our reputation. Her beef with is was that we know how to use email, apparently.
Like I said, it was a slow news day. 🙂
January 9, 2014 at 12:08 pm
I refuse to visit her blog ever again, so dishonest, talk about abuse. I know who your talking about but mum the word….I got your back in pray and I appreciate what you do here. Love you JEN…..stay the couse.
January 9, 2014 at 1:34 pm
stay the “course” spell check
January 9, 2014 at 3:12 pm
back to Nolan M. He seems to be on a “witch hunt” of sorts. He only wants to go after the throats of Peter & Scott but when confronted about Doug Phillips, Bob Sarratt and others……he goes in circles and riddles……..that boy is not right. Makes my head hurt.
January 9, 2014 at 4:16 pm
Nolan posted this… http://jasondohm.com/has-doug-phillips-repented/
and can anyone translate this comment on Nolan’s SB post ???
Bryant N Kathryn Cutler (wrote)….Yes Nolan, I agree with Scott Brown. Here is a scripture to back it up. Don’t gloss over the scripture, READ IT! Understand it. If you are going to continue to bark up this tree with dead coons in it, you’d better know what you are barking about….
Ecc 10:1 “Dead flies cause the ointment of the apothecary to send forth a stinking savour:so doth a little folly him that is in reputation for wisdom and honour.”
Very weird from Mr Cutler, I thought.
January 8, 2014 at 4:06 pm
TW, I discovered your comment on my site and made reply. No need to publish this comment, it was simply the most expedient way I could discover to provide notification.
January 8, 2014 at 4:41 pm
Interesting article from R.C. Sproul Jr. on January 6: http://rcsprouljr.com/blog/general/wrong-internet/
Sounds like someone is getting nervous.
January 8, 2014 at 7:58 pm
AAR, thanks for the link! Yes, it sounds like something prompted him to repost that!
January 8, 2014 at 8:05 pm
Wonder what that could be that prompted him to repost…….discernment blog….mauhahahahahahha!
January 8, 2014 at 8:22 pm
Teresa, yes, it is quite interesting that he doesn’t actually refute anything. I am glad he is attempting to speak kindly to his children, though.
January 8, 2014 at 8:31 pm
What it really boils down to is, he and others like DP want to silence as many as possible. They call it gossip, I call it biblical. Funny that he posted this since his name has been tossed to and fro on blogs.
January 8, 2014 at 8:03 pm
Looks like RC Jr. published that article in tabletalk magazine in 2012 and then Jan 6. He is so nervous he is sweating bullets.
January 8, 2014 at 4:52 pm
A couple of weeks ago I decided to write a new article that looked at whether or not the “biblical patriarchy” movement gives a greater probability for infidelity to occur. It also delves into the question posed by some that states, “Did Doug fall into infidelity because he didn’t believe in grace enough?” The last issue that I cover is an interaction with the proposed solution to the “biblical patriarchy” debacle which has been “Don’t trust in man but just study the Bible for yourself”. Below is the link to the article. I would love to hear anyone’s thoughts on it.
January 8, 2014 at 5:16 pm
Mark: I cannot find a comment section for your article
January 8, 2014 at 7:02 pm
That’s an important feature that I need to add!
Feel free to email me at email@example.com or we can discuss it here since from my understanding that’s OK as long as we are sticking to things about patriarchy.
January 8, 2014 at 7:39 pm
Yes, you are welcome to discuss it here.
January 9, 2014 at 11:17 am
In your article you concluded with a good point: “In summary, their dedication to Scripture over man was not the problem. Instead it was their lack of accountability to the larger community of believers indwelt with the Holy Spirit, especially those who have given their lives to the study of Scripture (eg. Seminary professors) along with an incomplete and often inconsistent hermeneutical approach to Scripture.”
There is also the psychological problem (fear driven) and imho of watching this type of thinking over 10 years, too much emphasis on law when most of their audience is Gospel deficient (see my article here). They add burdens upon people but such nascent legalism is not unique to h/s, patriarchy, FIC circles (I grew up with it; so I sympathize with h/s as I illustrate here).
As a reminder to those not in the know: I do homeschool. And I do not think FIC is in principle a sin (churches have *freedom* to exercise this option). I have a problem with these views becoming God’s law binding upon all.
January 9, 2014 at 1:30 pm
Amen, Shawn! These are areas of freedom indeed.
January 8, 2014 at 6:49 pm
I think it’s a good article. There is something terribly amiss with the entire patriarchy/dominionism movement of which I was influenced for over a decade and made some life changing decisions that I’m not certain I should have done. I’ve been doing some soul searching and tried to make amends; I’ve still got a way to go. 🙂 I remind myself of Martin Luther’s advice to ask God to correct my mistakes.
January 8, 2014 at 7:41 pm
Angela, although I realize it was not easier for you to make that paradigm shift, I am so glad you worked through that and are putting truth first! You will be the winner in the long run for it!
January 8, 2014 at 11:34 pm
You wrote: “There is something terribly amiss with the entire patriarchy/dominionism movement of which I was influenced for over a decade”
I think the problem is two-fold: too much fear and too much law (not enough Gospel). I say this as one who has seen the effects of Reconstructionism/Dominionism (and read their books) in the Reformed churches over the last 15 years–most of that time as a church leader. My article on fear in homeschooling (Homeschool apostates, homeschoolers and legalism) summarizes my first point. My second point can best be summarized with this speech at a public conference discussion about family integrated churches (A Weak Gospel Creates Weak Families).
My articles write directly about h/s and NCFIC but these are heavily influenced by some version of law-oriented (in the worse sense of that word) dominionism. Another way to look at it is an undue focus on America and “saving” her culturally, politically and economically. Phillips certainly played off this angle and the fears middle-class conservatives have.
January 9, 2014 at 8:23 am
Thank you, Pastor Mathis. It’s amazing how these movements are intertwined. I’m very grateful for the grace and patience you and others have shown me as I wrestle with these things. But I am most grateful for the love of Christ and knowing that He will work all things for good for those that love Him and are called according to His purpose. 🙂 I’ll read your articles.
January 9, 2014 at 8:58 am
I began noticing this a while back…..It seemed to me that one of the biggest things that VF was selling was fear. And yet, you know, it was tempting to want to buy from them, because they had republished so many old OOP books that I had heard of, or had recommended to me.
But then I saw ” Elsie Dinsmore” & I creeped out. (My mother had once–many years before VF was thought of, declared them to be “Vile. Absolutely vile”. She said her father had refused to have them in the house, calling them “unfit for a Christian home”. Wow. Just wow. When I read bits online, I got a sick feeling, & I am so glad that my grandfather’s discernment had saved the family from what a pastor friend calls “emotional incest”. [See puking smiley here].
January 9, 2014 at 9:03 am
Fear along with , “Hey, we’ve got the exclusive answers!”
January 8, 2014 at 7:52 pm
Mark, good article and good insights, as usual. I mostly agree with everything in your article. The part that I would emphasize is that Doug Phillips, and others like him, such as Scott Brown, do NOT understand biblical hermeneutics, nor do most Christians today. When a pastor taught me proper hermeneutics, it totally rocked my biblical world. You are definitely going in the correct direction with this!
I hope to be posting some exegetical articles soon so we can look at this issues together. I welcome your input and feedback on them.
January 8, 2014 at 6:00 pm
Question for you “insider” types. I never met any of the folks from BCA, and we never attended church in any of the other three in “the community.” I have seen a couple of references to Phillips’ “black suited goons.” At first I thought theses were just kids that played bodyguard at church events. Like wannabe types. However, my question is, was there REALLY a cadre of men, dressed like mafia types, that actually went to the homes of folks and made threats of various types? We have been in cultic groups before, but this gets more bizarre with every detail.
January 8, 2014 at 7:42 pm
Michael, yes, there was. We may do an article about what really happened there. It is an amazing story of Doug Phillips’ mafia!
January 8, 2014 at 7:47 pm
Amazing! What is mildly surprising is that nobody met the punks at the door with a baseball bat…or a 12 gauge. 😉
January 8, 2014 at 8:38 pm
Michael do you really think christian people would meet the ARMED goon squad with a base bat or 12 gauge ? Baseball bats are for kids looking to appear tough, and shotguns are for farmers. They do way too much damage to surrounding property, cars or front doors in urban areas.
Personally I prefer the AK-47 in 7.62×39 , GLOCKS and my favorite H&Ks. If these Vision Forum thugs showed up at my home I would have called 911 and held the phone close to the gun while working the slide. Then I would have “panicked” and started screaming “they are here for me, the armed Soliders of GOD ! It’s a cult para-military group, they are here to kill me. They are banging on my door, I’m going to fire a warning shot at the door”. Operators at 911 centers know the sound of a round being chambered, the call would immediately be dispatched as priority 1 since firearms are involved. In my county the Tactical team, K-9 and helicopter would be deployed and a LT would be placed on the call. The Vision forum thugs would find themselves face down in handcuffs with some I love LUCY style explaining to do. Having a concealed weapons permit doesn’t authorize a person to go to people’s homes to threaten / intimidate. Doing this while armed is a serious crime. Vision Forum and the leader of the idiot squad would have made the evening news, the goon squad would have lost their permits and possibly been charged with mencing while armed or Going about armed to the terror of the public and trespassing ( depends on the State statute).
Some people I know would have just shot them. Doug is a total idiot for exposing those brainless punks to lethal force. I wonder if their naive parents now realize how stupid it was to send their young men to be trained by a foolish twit like Doug Phillips. Having a armed goon squad is proof the man is a total, complete psychopath.
Never again can we allow this type of activity to occur within the christian community. It’s just flat out unacceptable. I’m amazed that these supposedly intelligent home schooled kids would do such a thing.
January 8, 2014 at 9:04 pm
Yeah, I also know some people who would have just shot them……with any weapon at hand.
January 8, 2014 at 10:02 pm
Some of them weren’t kids…if what I have heard is true.
January 8, 2014 at 9:40 pm
Jen: Please do that. There needs to be confirmation that this is a cult. Force along with fear is one of those markers of a cult.
January 9, 2014 at 9:56 am
Jen, I will be waiting with anticipation for your goon squad article.
January 8, 2014 at 10:46 pm
yes they were. They were his private assistants and interns. They had to sign a confidentiality clause in order to work for Doug and alot of their job was to silence ANYONE that spoke anything BUT positive and glowing things about Doug and his family.
January 8, 2014 at 10:52 pm
Were there any (real) adults that were involved in this?
January 9, 2014 at 12:17 pm
what do you mean by “real adults”………..??? I am confused by that?
January 9, 2014 at 11:35 pm
I have just heard that there were some middle aged men “packing” as well in order to defend their man, not just interns.
January 9, 2014 at 5:46 am
They would have to cut my tongue out to shut me up.
I told a friend of mine yesterday that the WOF/NAR is just the tip of the iceberg when it come to deception.
I think about the scripture in John 16:2 ]They will make you outcasts from the synagogue, but an hour is coming for everyone who kills you to think that he is offering service to God. NASB
Footnote a.John 16:2 Or They will have you excommunicated……..sounds familiar….
January 9, 2014 at 12:17 pm
they had to go through the IPS training and they were all around DP “packing”……..not for the benefit of them but Doug himself. Yes all of them were adults (18 & up).
January 9, 2014 at 12:24 pm
what’s IPS training
January 9, 2014 at 12:30 pm
Walking in Freedom, I think notsurprised may be referring to IAEPA- International Academy of Executive Protection Agency.
January 9, 2014 at 1:09 pm
So, these (legally) adult, armed men, we’re going to people’s houses and threatening them? And they didn’t end up with a surprise visit from the San Antonio gendarmes? Wow!
January 9, 2014 at 11:05 pm
Walking in Freedom, I think notsurprised may be referring to IAEPA- International Academy of Executive Protection Agency.
Yes that’s it.
January 9, 2014 at 11:23 pm
Check out all the IAEPA “student testimonials” written by Vision Forum interns and employees. I see a number of familiar names.
January 9, 2014 at 11:45 pm
Very revealing… Joshua & Justice Phillips, the Botkins, Bob Renaud, and another (who grieves my heart most of all)
January 9, 2014 at 11:38 pm
Wow ! It’s a VF & ATI “who’s who” list! Many luminaries listed there!
January 10, 2014 at 3:30 am
Hilarious and sad at the same time. I owned a security guard company with 34 employees for 10 years. I also worked in the Bail Bond business for years so I’m very familiar with these types of training centers. They come in two varieties, the ones offering serious training to professionals and those making a killing selling adventure to James Bond Wannabees. This one is the latter. All the photos of people holding guns, the “top hand to hand combat” guy holding the knife and all the name dropping, Judge Moore etc is a DEAD GIVE AWAY. That being said, there is way more money catering to the James Bond crowd. They all show up wearing Omega sea master watches (black dial of course) and expensive sun glasses. They buy crap firearms too, lots of stainless steal Walther PPKS (because that’s the James Bond gun. Problem is it’s extraordinarily finicky and prone to failure. Looks great in movies but in real world situations
When a everyday business person like Doug Phillips needs protection at this level, normally it’s because they are screwing people over left and right.
January 10, 2014 at 7:55 am
Randy, you are so on the money, including the part about the Walther PPKS. How embarrassing to have to admit it, but I bought one myself years ago because, well, it was such a cool James Bond gun! I found out the hard way what an absolute piece of junk gun it is. Frequent jams, worthless sights, terrible target grouping, just awful. I sold it to another young guy who wanted a James Bond gun and got a real pistol that works.
January 8, 2014 at 9:05 pm
And I like Scott better and better all the time. 😉
January 8, 2014 at 9:51 pm
Thank you Zooey111 but I must say the last person that said that was nearly arrested with me.
We got a warning. Picketing the abortionist’s neighborhood on Christmas Eve morning was a bit over the top but twenty years ago it seemed like a great idea. Then a half dozen cops showed up with a paddy wagon and a warning about Christmas dinner in jail being ham in a can or spam.
January 8, 2014 at 10:41 pm
I hear ya’ Scott. It is hard to believe Phillips actually had the nerve to start his own private, amateur army. Hard to believe nobody seemed to think they might land in jail.
January 9, 2014 at 2:09 am
Ah, you should hear my friend Mae’s tale about how she protected herself from a bunch of bullies who kept smashing her “Protect the Unborn” sign in her yard every night.
Think: large quantities of sticky syrup, and a water hose hooked up to the motion sensors in place of the yard light…. You have to get the wee gombeen men to come to you, you see.
January 9, 2014 at 6:42 am
Zooey…was it the BCA mafia that ruined Mae’s property, or was that a separate issue? I’m just curious as to how far these fools were willing to go. We knew one kid, several years ago, from the north east, who interned at VF. This particular kid might have been one of the two previously mentioned, that ended up with his virtue intact after the experience.
January 9, 2014 at 9:05 am
Separate issue. These guys hated her because she is a Roman Catholic. But she did a real number on them with all the same. I think she scared them because she treated them like punk kids. It is hard to look like the mafia when you find yourself glued to the sign you are smashing with great quantities of thrift store honey & pancake syrup, with cold water soaking you all over on a cold night…with the neighbors all laughing at you.
January 9, 2014 at 9:48 am
Yes, that is my point Zooey…treat them like punk kids. I mean, what would Phillips have done If he had sent a few of his boys on a mission, only to have them return sort of like David ‘ men did in the scripture, with their beards shaved and their buttocks exposed? Missed opportunities here. Would have made a great story.
January 9, 2014 at 4:13 pm
Yes, it surely would!! (And 😉 think of the photo op missed!!).
January 9, 2014 at 8:44 pm
January 8, 2014 at 10:35 pm
I am feeling a disconnect here. For the last 40 years or so we went through the “normal” church experience. At one point we got into what could have become a cult, but because of our gift of discernment we left. It was very painful and we felt like spiritual outcasts and rebellious parishioners, but regardless, we left. After being assured we would go to hell for being rebellious. That was a long tine ago.. Many churches later, and much spiritual growth on our part( after terrible things happening in churches. Suicide for one) we have decided that the organized church is harmful to our spiritual life.. We are now old and grieve for the decisions one of our 6 children has taken. I feel disconnected in this blog because we personally have not in the past bought into this. But it is nevertheless painful that we have a child and 8 grandchildren who have
January 8, 2014 at 10:45 pm
Leslie, this is so sad for me. My heart is burdened for you. I can tell you that there are churches out there that are solid foundations for the family that do not judge, overbear, ridicule, or threaten you. I pray you will find a good church one day for support and fellowship. I don’t know what we would do without both of our churches – yes we attend two of them. Certainly we have our members that have issues and I’m sure I’m one of them ha ha! But I can tell you that we do not know what we would have done without our loving church family. These are “baby bear” churches – not too small, not too big – just right for us. The pastors are faithful men that serve the Lord, call you when you are sick, visit you when you are in the hospital. When we found out my son might need expensive surgery a while back, we received three phone calls from members offering to help with any expenses. God uses these fellow believers to lift us up, pray for us, laugh and cry with us. They are not intrusive and do not elevate themselves over each other. I PROMISE you God has a place for you without cult leaders and hidden agendas. I pray you find a church family that ministers to you in GOOD ways.
January 8, 2014 at 11:31 pm
Thanks for your good wishes and words of encouragement. We have been through the whole scope of Christianity. Saved in our mid 20’s. Sent 6 children to Christian school at one time or another. 20 years in Bible Study. Taught Bible Study.. My husband was a Deacon, Elder, and on the Christian School Board. We started and were involved in several ministries. We found it was all vanity and deceit. The ministries to a lost and dying world are the only things that have withstood the test of time. we have maintained many good friendships from the past. Good Christian people. I am sure they question our reluctance to be involved in a church..at the same time they see the tremendous fruit of our ministries. It is a conundrum at best.
January 9, 2014 at 8:54 am
Leslie, I totally hear you. Keep up the great work of going and doing what you and your family are led to do.
January 9, 2014 at 10:23 am
Thank you BBB! We too have been able to leave BCA and have found a church you describe. God is good and he is faithful. No church is perfect but there are good Christians out there still and we just have to find them and be willing to realize we ALL have our issues, strengths and weaknesses. This is what is so beautiful about the true body of Christ without legalism. The legalism wants to put us all in a box and say you must wear this, do this and look like this, say this, read this, not go here or there and and think this. That is not what true Christianity should look like. We will pray for you Leslie and your family. Blessings.
January 9, 2014 at 3:52 pm
I might just add that I am unsure of what “organized church” includes. I assume you are talking about any church with a pastor and deacons or whatever. If you are speaking solely of Catholic, Presb, or the like with a set hierarchy of leadership, I can probably understand that a little better. I have never been in a church with that type of situation. We Baptists tend to live and let live – at least the ones in the big city. We are rich, poor, doctors, teachers, male and female staff members – some single – some divorced, some drink, some don’t, some play fantasy football, others are into yoga and organic foods. Nobody cares! What matters is where are you in your Christian walk and how can we assist you. I will stake my entire reputation on the fact you could visit anytime and not experience anything but God’s presence in that place. The pastors are so above board and reachable. They are amazing and they LOVE serving the body of Christ. The guys mentioned here do not serve. They use. I will also notate that both of my churches have incredible mission organization that we sponsor and lead ourselves – including a free health care clinic in the lower socio-economic parts of town and also continued bi-monthly mission trips with our church doctors and medical professionals to provide heath care and on going dental and surgical training in three different countries. One of our missions pastor was the head gang leader in the Texas prison system for 10 years. He has confessed of sins that would curl your hair. But God transformed him and gave him a zest for Christ and for missions. He is bringing people to Christ daily and also helping us sponsor some of these mission ventures. Our church rejoices at being able to connect, stay connected, and provide continuing assistance we feel is money well spent and proclaims the name of Christ. We don’t brag about it – we just can’t help sharing what God is doing. This business of shunning, threatening, daughter loaning – all like a bad fairy tale to me. I only landed here because of our indirect connection with the SAICFF that was severed by Doug Phillips. I stay because I continually want to know how far reaching these ties are in the homeschool world.
I just have to share this to let you that God is not dead in the church. Possibly you might have to work to find him – but the door is always open here in Southeast Texas. Shoot me a note anytime and I would love to introduce you to two wonderful church bodies.
January 9, 2014 at 3:50 am
Leslie, Every time I read your posts, I just want to hug you. xoxo And I understand about the organized church.
January 9, 2014 at 8:58 am
I have found that churches which are pretty well, um unorganized to be pretty real….
January 9, 2014 at 2:11 pm
I am curious about your experience with your child and grandchildren. It sounds very familiar….. I’m wondering, what is there to do in these situations? Do you keep trying, even when they don’t want you in their lives?
January 9, 2014 at 6:35 pm
We try in as far as keeping the relationship up as much as possible. Mostly emails 2 or 3 times a month. I try not to comment on their religious views, although I did send her a short email about DP. Didn’t hear back from her on that one. So our contact is mainly superficial, but at least that is better than nothing. We visit about every 18 months. They NEVER come visit us. We offered to pay for some of them to fly to attend our youngest daughters wedding. Only our daughter would attend with the baby. She wouldn’t let the 17 year old granddaughter attend. Supposedly she was needed at home to care for the other 6 kids in her mothers absence. So yes, we keep trying.
January 10, 2014 at 5:59 pm
Thank you Leslie, for your reply. I’d love to talk to you more about this privately. Is there a way to do that?
January 10, 2014 at 7:42 pm
If Leslie agrees, I will share your email addresses privately.
January 10, 2014 at 7:43 pm
Thank you, Jen.
January 9, 2014 at 12:55 pm
Jen, Re: “Yesterday must have been a slow news day since someone on another blog decided to attack TW and my blog and try to smear our reputation.” [ https://jensgems.wordpress.com/2014/01/02/doug-phillips-boerne-christian-assembly-more-lies-and-cya/comment-page-2/#comment-31068 ]
Thank you for posting your side of the story! I agree that the complaints about you or TW sending an email to a commenting reader were bizarre. Please carry on your good work.
January 9, 2014 at 1:38 pm
January 12, 2014 at 6:03 pm
I hope my apology is seen ladies . Please forgive my inappropriate questions.
January 12, 2014 at 6:28 pm
Of course your forgiven…How is your new baby doing?
January 12, 2014 at 6:59 pm
Beautiful blessing thank you! Little miracle girl
January 12, 2014 at 8:08 pm
How early was she if you do not mind me asking?
January 9, 2014 at 2:51 pm
A link to be shared—and reflective of the thought of most: http://jasondohm.com/has-doug-phillips-repented/
January 9, 2014 at 3:14 pm
So, Dohm is now the voice of authority on Christian integrity? Wasn’t he the “other half” of the Scott Brown/Trinity Baptist fiasco? Has Jason ever acknowledged any wrongdoing in that situation? From what I read elsewhere, Hope Baptist has had some excommunication issues, etc. Is this a case of the “pot calling the kettle black?” Just sayin.’
January 9, 2014 at 4:07 pm
Hi Michael. I understand that the Bible is the authority on Christian integrity, not me, and that is what I made my best attempt to represent in that post. I hope I came close. I know what is available for viewing on the internet about what happened at Trinity, and while there are many things I wish I could go back in time and do differently, I can’t plead guilty to things as they are represented in the blogosphere. All I can tell you is that I am aware of many of my own failures and I have a deep desire to know the Lord better, to continue making progress in the faith, and to help others do the same.
January 9, 2014 at 4:21 pm
I really appreciate what you wrote in your article.
Thank you !
January 9, 2014 at 4:26 pm
Jason, welcome to Jen’s Gems. Thank you so much for the article you posted. I agree with everything you say. I have some questions for you, but I’ll be discreet about it and contact you offline.
January 9, 2014 at 5:19 pm
I wish you or Scott Brown would address the issues as the info on line paints a pretty bad picture. It wouldn’t matter so much except there is still high visibility at least for SB.
January 9, 2014 at 5:34 pm
Fair enough Jason. I wasn’t directly involved in your situation, nor was I directly involved in the Phillips debacle. As far as you’re concerned, you may or may not have been right in whatever happened at Trinity, and whatever has since gone on at Hope. I can tell you that I personally have zero trust for anyone involved in the leadership of the whole NCFIC organization at this point. If my mistrust is misplaced I believe God will let me know when he is ready. I can tell you from my own limited experience with that group of churches that my family will not be put under their spiritual leadership again.
January 9, 2014 at 5:37 pm
And just an addendum, I made that decision long before Phillips was found out.
January 9, 2014 at 7:12 pm
January 9, 2014 at 8:40 pm
Michael, we feel the same on this issue. It will be a long time before we can trust the NCFIC and any VF-esque church or leader again. We sacrificed a lot by being a part of BCA. It was actually hard work to just attend there. Feeling burned doesn’t even come close as a description. We trust in time, as we keep our eyes on the Lord, that if our quick (and we believe just) judgement/discernment is wrong, we are willing to concede. But as for now we can’t get further away from anyone in this movement. I don’t think they make a pole long enough 😉
January 9, 2014 at 9:10 pm
I’m sure at this point you are just enjoying taking a breath of fresh air. We know the feeling of it being “hard work” just to attend a group like that. It is very freeing once you come to the place where some pseudo leader no longer controls you. Once your eyes are open you tend to guard your liberty much more closely. My wife and I have talked some about Galatians, and how the principles are basically the same in that book as in these controlling churches. It becomes very understandable why the Apostle called curses down on the men who were trying to ensnare God’s people. Paul definitely violated the “no gossip” rule. Horrifying!…at least to the men he was going after. 😉
January 9, 2014 at 10:01 pm
Eyes wide open –
I completely understand ! Going to BCA *was* hard work.
January 9, 2014 at 3:56 pm
This is good. http://jasondohm.com/has-doug-phillips-repented/
January 9, 2014 at 4:18 pm
I wonder if Jason will ever repent of his transgressions? Sad that those in NCFIC leadership are led by church splitting, Reconstructionists\Theonomists\Dominionist\Patriarchical, scatter the sheep ‘Elders.’ It amazes me that they have the audacity to write about rebuking, repenting and church life, yet they themselves have no idea about any of the aforementioned. Seems like they wouldn’t touch those subjects in light of everything.
January 9, 2014 at 4:28 pm
Hi Mike. I repent every day, and when I’m not repenting, I’m trying to be a faithful elder to the people who are in the church here. Some days I do a better job than others, but I am very aware of who the Chief Shepherd is, and the accountability I have to conduct myself according to His pattern. I thought I should write that post for people who might find it helpful and valuable. My guess is that if I hadn’t written anything at all, the analysis would have been, “See, they always cover for their own.” Some days you can’t win for losing…
January 9, 2014 at 7:01 pm
Thank you, thank you for this article!!!
Other leaders need to step forward as boldly as you have on this issue!!
Bless you !
January 9, 2014 at 7:14 pm
Thank Jason, your article was excellent!
January 9, 2014 at 9:25 pm
Hello Jason, glad to hear from you. I’m hoping the reasons you wrote had more to do with a desire to bring clarity to a tragic situation rather than just avoiding the accusation of “covering for your own”, I’ll give you the benefit of the doubt and believe you did.
I would like you to consider another post, this time it would be good for people to hear from you from the vantage point of being one of Doug’s inside men. Being an elder who failed to keep your sheep from the wolf it would be helpful to hear how you were duped into following Doug in the first place. Was it his charisma? Was it the notoriety from being associated with him? I personally know there were warning given to you about him and his ministry, how did these warnings escape your notice? There were teachings of his (and Scott’s) brought to your attention that had glaring errors, and yet you brushed them under the carpet, why? Hundreds, maybe thousands of people have been devastated by a man that you and a few others gave free reign to do as he pleased, and it turns out he pleased to do a whole lot. What advice or help can you extend to the scattered sheep who have been adversely affected by this man and men like you who should have been their protectors? What could we have done differently back then to help you see this man and his ministry was man centered? What assurance can you give those under your care now that you won’t lead them astray again?
Your message was good, but like others before you the approach you took put all the blame on Doug. Don’t you think it’s time for men like you to humbly ask forgiveness from those to whom you led to the wolf and be honest about the things that blinded you to his destructive ways?
January 9, 2014 at 10:58 pm
Yes, Don Albright. I wholeheartedly agree.
January 10, 2014 at 10:16 am
Thank you, Don Albright, for your testimony of faithfulness to God’s Word and His truth, even in the midst of a very difficult and stressful situation. I am grateful for your comment here and for your gracious challenge to Jason Dohm. When he and Scott are willing to humble themselves, repent and seek forgiveness from those whom they have treated so wrongly, then we can begin to lend some credibility to their public rebuke of other men who have failed to uphold a Christlike standard of conduct. Until then, Jason and Scott have to be held accountable for their lack of integrity. Thanks for publicly asking Jason some of the pertinent questions.
January 9, 2014 at 10:51 pm
I certainly think the Bible represents that repentance involves seeking reconciliation. Jason, you and Scott and the others there have left a trail of destroyed relationships every bit as terrible and far-reaching as what Doug has. And yet you have not even attempted to apologize or seek to make a bridge with those you damaged and damaged seriously. You have never even once publicly (meaning publicly enough that those who were hurt have knowledge of it) tried to build a bridge with the sheep you were a shepherd over at Trinity.
The Bible says that if you coming to the alter to bring your sacrifice and you remember that someone holds something against you, you should leave your sacrifice and go to your brother and be reconciled and then come back to make your sacrifice. You cannot possibly believe that you have made a good faith effort to be reconciled with the majority of the people at Trinity who voted to pass that statement of rebuke.
Faith (in your every-day repentance) without works (seeking reconciliation) is dead.
Physician — heal thyself.
January 9, 2014 at 11:44 pm
I’ll sign my further posts, but Seejay is Clellie Allen’s avatar.
January 9, 2014 at 4:25 pm
Well, some folks have been hoping that others would speak out. This is a definite statement and covers several points.
January 9, 2014 at 11:00 pm
Unfortunately, those in Wake Forest and Rolesville, NC (and Youngsville and Raleigh and points beyond) who have lived through the sad history of Trinity a.k.a. Hope and have watched Jason follow Scott to the point that he was bewitched (think Galatians) into thinking that everything Scott has done and is doing is right, read Jason’s post and thought, “Get the morass of logs out of your eyes, brother, before you try to see clearly about Doug.”
January 9, 2014 at 11:03 pm
I should give my name here — Clellie Allen. My avatar automatically signed me in.
January 9, 2014 at 11:13 pm
Hi Clellie! Welcome! Good to see you! I know that you have MUCH to say about this situation with Scott Brown and Jason Dohm. I will simply tell my other commenters that you, and a couple other commenters, will be speaking from first-hand experience here. You have the floor!
January 10, 2014 at 12:17 am
@Jen — Thanks, friend. I blame Mike for sending me the link to this discussion. LOL. I knew all of this was starting to heat back up after Doug’s “confession” but hadn’t had the opportunity to follow it much because of work and life and … well, you know how it is — once burned, twice shy. I admire you for continuing the good work of bringing all of this into the light.
I’m saddened to see this mess bust open because like you (although not to the extent as you have literally been to hell and back) I’ve lived firsthand the pain of having to be yanked almost bodily out of the aberrant teachings of Scott/Jason/Dan Horn/Trinity/Hope/NICFIC. It was one of the most painful experience of my life as everything gets called into question when something like this happens — everything you’ve learned, believed wholeheartedly. It’s like pruning a grapevine — whacked right back down to the dirt. I am grateful that God loved me so much to do it. And to put up with all my weeping and wailing and gnashing of teeth while it went on. But it hurt, hurt deeply and it echos to this day. I am much, much slower to trust people (especially those in leadership), my radar for legalism is set pretty high (I have to be careful not to be overly critical) and I had to go back to Bible 101 and start over like a newbie. Even down to reexamining the Gospel message itself. If that won’t scare you sober, nothing else will.
While some may dicker over the use of the word, “cult,” I can’t imagine detoxing from something we’d all agree was a cult (like Jim Jones’ group) could be any more painful. While Scott et. al. of course never advocated (to my knowledge) taking one’s own life, they have, with all seriousness, discussed the stoning of wayward children and homosexuals, for example. And Dan Horn in a men’s meeting told Don Albright he was heretical (heretical!) for saying that Jesus brought about a new covenant of grace, bringing people out from under the Law. (a la Hebrews 9:15) I mean, can you imagine being called heretical because you believe what the Bible says in Galatians when it says that the Law can never be efficacious for salvation or for justification? Well, if you’ve been in one of Scott’s churches you can. Because that is what was taught.
It is just all so mind boggling — many, many good (meaning Christian, because Christ makes us good for all you literalists), Bible believing (Biblical inerrancy), loving families were torn apart from one another in violence to hearts, minds and souls. One of the last elders, Jerry Mestas, told us all in a properly convened congregational meeting that Scott had been vicious, actively seeking to destroy the reputations of those who opposed him at that time (like Don Albright, who is Scott’s brother-in-law, Mike Thorpe, a deacon, the other elder, Don Bowen, just to name a few). And yet Scott felt he had nothing to repent for. Neither did Jason.
I’m rambling. This all makes me sad because of that inevitable hurt that comes when the word of God divides bone from marrow. BUT, I am also glad. It is a sign that God is not willing to leave His people believing in a lie. It is a testimony to what he says In Philippians 1:6, “being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.”
January 10, 2014 at 12:23 am
Hello Clellie Allen, and welcome. If you haven’t yet seen my latest article you might want to review that. You seem to have some important insights that could be very relevant to the discussion going on there.
January 9, 2014 at 6:08 pm
So you have resolved this issue?
1. We believe that Scott and Jason mishandled their responsibilities as elders to this body of believers.
2. We believe that they abused their position of trust and authority when they forced a vote of confidence over their leadership.
3. We believe that Scott and Jason were confronted with this and other errors, but they failed to repent when invited to do so.
4. Scott and Jason left our fellowship rather than address these issues and work through them together as the Bible requires.
January 9, 2014 at 8:46 pm
I’m not sure I would conclude that “forcing” a vote of confidence on leadership is ever a sin. Obviously the congregation would still need to vote and collectively decide the outcome of the matter. Some church leaders need to have a vote of confidence.
That being said I’m no fan of Scott Brown or his NCFIC. The idea that youth groups, Sunday school, singles groups and church nurseries are sin because the Bible doesn’t authorize them is laughable. Starting a organization like NCFIC that the Bible also doesn’t authorize in order to straighten out everyone Else’s church is down right hypocritical and hilarious. Scott Brown doesn’t come close to being elder qualified. He is just one of those guys that likes to be in charge and hear himself talk. He couldn’t pull that off at his former church so he left to start his own.
Typical of people like Doug Phillips, they like to continually reminding everyone that we need to be accountable to the church but they flee jurisdiction when they are the focus of correction or set up structures where they are accountable to NO ONE. Doug Phillips is just a bully and a former cult leader. Scott Brown is a bully and an aspiring CULT leader. I think you will find the NCFIC to be a flash in the pan. I don’t believe it will continue to be much of a factor or anything of substantial influence. There aren’t enough naive people after all the VF exposure. I bet you see the numbers in attendance at Scott Brown’s conferences drop considerably.
Hopefully the Christian community is realizing that you don’t need Scott Brown, Geffro Botkin, Philiips or anyone else telling you how to run your life. Just read the Bible, hold your church leadership in very LOW esteem and protect your family from their arrogance. Sure, go to church but don’t accept everything some pastor or para-church leader says just because they are ( essentially) self appointed band leaders. Realize they are quite often poorly qualified, and have lousy intentions.
January 9, 2014 at 9:00 pm
Randy – Here! Here! I’m in total agreement with your post.
January 9, 2014 at 9:33 pm
That you are disgusted with some church experiences is understandable. So was the apostle Paul with reference to some of the activities at the Corinthian assembly. But you are foolishly broad brushing the institution of the local church and you are broad brushing all Christian leadership in the local church–“hold your church leadership in very low esteem”? You are ill friend and you are contagious.
January 9, 2014 at 10:27 pm
I think what he meant was “don’t put church leaders (or anyone else, for that matter) on a high pedestal, because they WILL fall at some point.” We’re all human and we all make mistakes. Respect and love your church leaders, but don’t elevate them to God-status. I learned this the hard way as well. I love my current church leaders and I pray for them, but I no longer expect perfection or automatically go along with everything they might say.
January 9, 2014 at 10:41 pm
New Coven Pastor: Thank you very much, you just demonstrated quite clearly why we as believers MUST hold “pastors” (especially those like yourself) in very low esteem. Let me guess, you are reformed. OPC or ECO, no doubt. Typical
January 9, 2014 at 10:58 pm
I must unfortunately agree with Randy. The church leaders I have known who demanded respect were wolves. The truly humble Godly leaders were ill equipped to handle the wolves who succeeded in supplanting them. Many Godly pastors left their churches and people to go to the mission field because they were unable to fight the wolves. So, I too, hold church leaders in low esteem.
January 10, 2014 at 12:06 am
Well, we should be careful as God’s Word tells us they are worthy of double honor. I’m convinced there are good ones out there… But it also says this, “And the Lord’s bond-servant must not be quarrelsome, but be kind to all, able to teach, patient when wronged, with gentleness correcting those who are in opposition” (2 Tim 2:24-25a).
January 10, 2014 at 1:02 am
Oneh20, actually the WORD doesn’t say that. It says elders that rule well are worthy of double honor. Personally I don’t see most pastors these days falling into the category of ruling well. Most churches don’t even have a plurality of elders as scripture demands. Pastors rule like CEOs and that’s unscriptural. The roles of elder are often merged with deacon and often they don’t meet the qualifications listed in Timithy. That’s not ruling well. They are not to be lovers of money, yet we see pastors spending their time writing books to create wealth instead of visiting the elderly and those in the hospital. We see them holding events and seminars where christian families are charged huge fees to hear the WORD of GOD. That’s just flat out disgusting and right up their with the Catholic Church charging for the forgiveness of sins as they did years ago. That’s not ruling well.
January 10, 2014 at 1:32 am
You’re right, Scott – who rule well. This can be taken a number of ways, but one take is that an elder/pastor who rules well is an elder/pastor who is “truly” biblically qualified. Granted there are many who are not biblically qualified, but the Word stands, so I am taking it that these men are still out there. And God’s Word is clear about a plurality of elders. Agreed. That said, those churches are out there too. I have been a member of at least two of them for several years. I will add, however, that a little leaven leavens the whole lump of dough and I have seen firsthand a pitifully damaging elder board ruin people’s lives.
Finally there are also these verses:
1 Thess. 5:12&13 “But we request of you, brethren, that you appreciate those who diligently labor among you, and have charge over you in the Lord and give you instruction, and that you esteem them very highly in love because of their work. Live in peace with one another.”
Hebrews 13:7 “Remember those who led you, who spoke the word of God to you; and considering the result of their conduct, imitate their faith.”
Hebrews 13:17 “Obey your leaders and submit to them, for they keep watch over your souls as those who will give an account. Let them do this with joy and not with grief, for this would be unprofitable for you.”
So – I think as long as God’s Word is true we should have hope that there are churches out there unlike what we may have experienced. He is faithful, right? We just can’t give up.
January 9, 2014 at 10:43 pm
Randy — the “forced” vote is worded such because the elders called a special meeting not in keeping with the bylaws and held it on Scott’s property rather than a neutral place so that they could exclude those they wanted to and only allow those they wanted to speak to speak. It should be noted that they disallowed others to call meetings — even in keeping with the written bylaws of that time.
Additionally, in the specially called meeting, they prevented proper discussion and would not let anyone table the meeting for a future vote. It was done very hurriedly and not in keeping with any notion of propriety or what one would call good governance.
A properly called-for and thoroughly discussed vote of confidence would have been appropriate.
January 9, 2014 at 11:16 pm
Interesting. I personally wouldn’t call the situation you describe as “forced”. Words like manipulated, deceived, evilly conspired come to mind. How could they have even thought holding a meeting on Scotty’s farm that violates the bylaws would be successful. The more I hear of Scott Brown the more I realize why he was on the Vision Forum board. He is like Doug Phillip’s evil twin (just taller). It’s like these men have zero conscience. The end justifies the means. I lived in Raleigh when all that was going on and heard it was a mess but wow.
January 9, 2014 at 11:28 pm
Maybe you’ll see this, Randy — there’s not a reply button under your followup.) I would call it forced because of the way the whole thing operated like a cult. Stepping away a few years, it’s pretty easy to look back and go, “how did people even agree to that?”
Well, after a steady diet of you-must-obey-your-elders-or-else preaching, people just went along with it. It took a long, long time for people to get out of that cultish mindset of doing things that really are against one’s will but seem so — what’s the word? Inescapable? It’s like battered wife syndrome. Once you get distance, you just can’t believe you let it go on for so long. But when you’re in the middle of it, you’re just mind-numbed to how Biblically unsound it all is and you feel will-less to step out of it.
And I should clarify that the meeting was held in Scott’s South White Street property in Wake Forest, not on his farm.
-Clellie Allen (I should have signed my other posts as my avatar doesn’t have my name in it.)
January 9, 2014 at 11:28 pm
Oh — it automatically ordered it under yours. Good deal.
January 9, 2014 at 11:42 pm
@Randy — the comment, “It’s like these mean have zero conscience” hits pretty close to the mark. The last Sunday at Trinity where Scott was allowed to speak before he was cut loose (at that time we met in Jones Dairy Elementary auditorium), Scott made a rambling speech where he blamed it all on jealous men. And then he went as far as saying that if he was wrong, God would show him. But God hadn’t. Ergo, he wasn’t in need of repentance. He made a very similar statement at congregational meeting held after he and Jason had “stepped down” due to the vote of confidence.
After he made his I-am-without-blame statements, as we talked over all that had happened with our children, we told them that Scott had had two groups of elders, half his deacons and more than half his congregation tell him he was wrong, not in an effort to throw him out, but in an effort to bring him back to truth. And that if they (our children) ever found themselves in a position where that many God-fearing, Bible-believing people were calling them to repentance, they should sit up and take notice. That *is* most likely God speaking.
(The first set of elders to tell Scott he was off course actually told him that he should completely disband what he was doing. Jason joined the elder team just after that set left. Scott married Jason and his wife and has been a mentor/shepherd to Jason for more than 20 years. For Jason to ever see what Scott is doing in all truth will be, and I am not making a joke, an act of God.)
Scott continuing in his work at Hope and NCFIC with any modicum of success is not, IMO, a sign of the rightness of what he is doing. It is more like 2 Peter 3:9 “The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. Instead he is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance.”
January 9, 2014 at 11:22 pm
I used to be pretty chummy with a girl that was/is close to DP’s kids and especially Josh. Maybe more than “just friends”. Anyway according to her Josh is a good kid, just somewhat insecure (small wonder) and overcompensates a little. Anyway, I wish people would lay off him. This situation sucks for those kids. I guess my point is, it’s not his fault if his dad is a jerk, and while I get that that doesn’t give him a free pass to act however he wants, for the love of mercy let’s please just keep in mind that he and all those kids are living in hell right now for something that is 110% not their fault. Surely a litlle kindness is in order, not addIng to the sting by dragging their names through the mud.
January 10, 2014 at 7:24 am
I asked a guy who held Phillips in very high esteem, and who was saying things like, “we just need to pray for him, “etc., what he thought Joshua was thinking/feeling right now. That question silenced him, he immediately looked down and softly said, “I don’t know.” I have been wondering since this mess broke how these kids are going to process all this, especially the oldest son. It also makes me wonder how long the kids have known that Dad and Mom have been leading double lives. Even at my age I cannot imagine all they are going through.
January 10, 2014 at 1:27 pm
My question is did Doug Phillips care when he was dragging Jen’s name through the mud and calling her names, just asking.
It is hard to drag someone name through the mud when his father (Doug Phillips) has done a wonderful job all by himself. As my mom told my 7 brother’s, you better keep your pants zipped and your pants on. DP should have done the same.
He not only brought open shame to the gospel and our LORD Jesus Christ but also to his wife, children and thousands of people he has hurt by is own action. nuff said.
January 10, 2014 at 3:55 pm
[To start forgive me if I mess up details on this set of events: I only heard of vision forum a few years ago: being a homeschooling mom of 6 kids who follows the Duggars, I followed a link and saw her receive the mother of the year award from the Phillips’, was subsequently creeped out by DP touchy feely behaviour with Michelle, and pretty much didn’t pay much attention to DP again until I found out in November vision forum was closing and the reason why.]
I am not sure if in this set of comments or any others the elephant in the room has been addressed or not but I thought I should bring it up. That elephant being polygamy. I would be willing to bet money that the reason this “affair” went on 10 years, his repentance letter is so obviously fake, his wife must have known when it was the nanny and many other details of this whole thing is that Doug Phillips, in his arrogance and extreme patriarchal views, was participating in a polygamous relationship and viewed/views nothing wrong with it. He just knows very few others could know about it since who would approve (good question? there are many in patriarchal circles that condone polygamy even if they themselves do not practice it) and of course, those pesky laws and stuff. That would explain something I read about the nanny having a ring, or being promised marriage and kids by DP? if that is true, then I am convinced. Whether Beall herself is okay with it or just acquiesced, I think that is what we are looking at. Does anyone know the current situation with “Cassandra”? Has she spoken out about it? is she still physically in contact with the Phillips family? sorry if this has already been addressed.
January 10, 2014 at 5:15 pm
Susan, welcome to our blog! Yes, we have briefly discussed the polygamy angle, but you may be right that Beall was just going along with the whole thing from that particular angle, but that they never intended to go public with their private little polygamy party. That is certainly one very good possibility.
As far as I know, Cassandra will not be speaking out at all. That is sad.
While they supposedly are no longer together and no longer have any contact, they do not live very far apart, so there is always opportunity there.
January 10, 2014 at 6:43 pm
Susan, I see you’re a new commenter here. Welcome.
Yes, there is definitely an elephant in the room called polygamy. Doug may not be a literal polygamist, but as I addressed in an earlier comment above, Doug Phillips has been a functional polygamist for some years.
January 10, 2014 at 6:53 pm
January 10, 2014 at 7:41 pm
Yet neither woman had children *for him* Out of the closet polygamists want lots of children
January 10, 2014 at 7:45 pm
what do you mean for him dtod? don’t beall and doug have 8 children? thats lots to me 🙂
January 10, 2014 at 7:50 pm
Doug and Beall wanted to have a dozen children.
When Doug Phillips would perform marriage ceremonies, part of his blessing to the woman in particular was something like this: “May you become the mother of thousands of ten thousands,” the blessing given to Rebekah who was to be the “mother” of all Israel. I think Doug didn’t realize that God had not covenanted with Doug Phillips to start a new nation. 😉
January 10, 2014 at 7:51 pm
I think she was referring to JG.
January 10, 2014 at 7:49 pm
thank you so much TW for the link to the earlier comments, sorry it was pretty much already addressed but that was helpful to read and inform myself as well.
January 10, 2014 at 8:00 pm
No apology necessary. With almost 650 comments now it’s a lot to wade through. I’ve got a couple of articles here with over 1000 comments! I can’t keep up with it myself.
January 10, 2014 at 8:10 pm
Jen: Did Doug/Beall want 12 children to be like the 12 tribes of Israel? This is extremely weird.
January 10, 2014 at 8:38 pm
Observer, no, I got the impression that they were trying to be like the twelve tribes of Israel, but Doug was a little confused about the purpose of that particular blessing for Rebekah.
January 10, 2014 at 10:03 pm
Jen: Nevertheless a crackpot. I used to think education was a guard against this kind of nonsense. And it is not.
January 12, 2014 at 1:24 pm
WomanforFreedom on January 12, 2014 at 11:14 AM
Your comment is awaiting moderation.
PLEASE TAKE A MOMENT TO READ THIS!!
First off I haven’t commented regarding this issue btwn JA and jens gems . But I need to. I would like to start by saying this article gives great advice on how to handle ones’ self online. As a new blogger I neeed to hear it. As a result id like to make a public apology . Privately I did tell mr eston that he scared and intimidated me for asking me to do something he was unwilling but I am able to do, being local. I cc’d Jen so she would be aware. Somehow this got public and JA and SSB is not to blame. I suppose since I’m the one who said those things to him (privately ) that I am to blame and I ask for his forgiveness as well as jens . Mr eston did apologize for scaring me and that should be noted. JA’s arguments go much farther than what am referring to . She had her own things she needed to address. As did others. But if anything I said or did caused any harm I humbly apologize. I’m afraid this whole internet venue is over my head and I just wanted to take a moment to publically apologize if I hurt anyone. This is sincere and genuine though my heart is always deceitful as I am a sinner. I don’t want there to be fighting amongst those who are united in calling out spiritual abuses and I don’t want to contribute to that. JA I’m sorry I didn’t know where else to post this. JA and SSB have never done anything to coerce info from me and from what I know of JA she’s fighting for an amazing cause. Jens gems as well is trying to ferret out truth and hipocracy and I didn’t mean to interfere. Please accept my apologies and let’s move past this so y’all can get to the real work of what you do. I won’t interfere in any way . For those who may be confused I’m referring to jens gems post, Jan 9th at 9:56 a.m. She was referring to what she had thought I had done . JA has nothing to do with my events . I’m my own person and take full responsibility for calling out and hurting mr eston. This grieves me- the entirety of it grieves me. Thank you for taking the time to read this
January 12, 2014 at 1:42 pm
WomanforFreedom, Thank you for sharing the public apology with us and for taking responsibility for causing friction (although I feel strongly that JA ought to have privately clarified some things with Jen before writing her article and making it a public ordeal– and that part of it was not your fault.) I appreciate your comment and your willingness to share what you know and observe about DP.
January 12, 2014 at 1:49 pm
That was really confusing…..Who is JA?
January 12, 2014 at 7:50 pm
Julie Anne of Spiritual Sounding Board.
January 13, 2014 at 9:46 am
InChristAlone, there was another blogger (JA) who wrote a blog article full of lies about us last week. WFF is apologizing for her part in it, for which I am very grateful.
January 13, 2014 at 5:17 pm
Thanks for clearing that up…. these threads move so fast, it’s hard to keep up.
January 12, 2014 at 7:41 pm
Thank you WFM. It’s very considerate what you’ve shared here. I accept your apology and forgive you. I have valued the dialogue we’ve shared and hope that can continue.
I regret that the request that I made from you scared you. That was the last thing I could have imagined would happen. I understand now that my request must have triggered some bad memories in you. I wish I’d known. I understand now some of the terrible things you’ve suffered through. Thanks for sharing those things with me. I ask your forgiveness for not having been more sensitive. I also pray for your healing. May God do mighty things in you and through you.
January 12, 2014 at 7:49 pm
I admire your willingness to set things straight. God Bless
January 13, 2014 at 9:06 am
WomanForFreedom, I was gone all day yesterday, so I apologize for not having seen this sooner. Thank you so much for your explanation and apology. I deeply appreciate it, and I deeply appreciate you as well. I can understand that sometimes we do things that accidentally hurt others. I know you did not intend to hurt anyone in this situation, nor did you intend for this to be a public situation. I am privileged to have gotten to know you a bit and hear your story. God has been extremely gracious to you and I know that He will continue to bring healing to your deep wounds. Often, helping others when they are hurting also ends up healing our own wounds at the same time, so I would encourage you to continue encouraging others here. We all appreciate your sense of humor and the freedom you do have in Christ!
Thanks for being you! You are a special, amazing woman!
January 13, 2014 at 10:06 am
Thank you to both of you for understanding and dealing with me graciously .
January 13, 2014 at 10:31 am
WFF, we’re glad you’re here!
January 12, 2014 at 2:06 pm
T.W. Eston said:
“Yes, Sarah, I was quite aware of that. I wasn’t replying to you re: RC Sproul Jr and accusations about wife spanking, blanket training, drunkenness, etc. However, I’m content to leave the comments by Ghirard and Lindt stand. I’ve checked with several of my sources and they confirm that all of these things are true. They were all going to come out in his Presbyterian trial. Needless to say he begged and did everything he could to get out of having to go to trial so those things, and much more, didn’t become public. His Presbytery decided it would be best to forgo a trial, so after they defrocked him they released him and he fled to Doug Wilson’s CREC.”
(I can’t figure out how to reply to the above comment so I am copy/pasting it here.)
See, I just don’t get this. Why would his Presbytery want to keep this a secret? Wouldn’t they want to warn people about him? What about his poor wife and children? Wouldn’t they want to protect them? What is that quote about evil happens because good men do nothing….something like that. I mean they had the power to DO something! Really upsetting….
January 12, 2014 at 8:14 pm
I’m not really sure what they could have done after they’d already defrocked him. Maybe they should have excommunicated him too? It seems like they were trying to show him something he was unfamiliar with — grace. I do wonder if they regret that now though. We are talking about a wolf in sheep’s clothing. I don’t think wolves are at all moved or positively affected by grace. Wolves just think of those who extend them grace as schmucks and patsies.
RC Sproul Jr’s denomination may have some regrets now about not taking him to trial, even if there was no additional ecclesiastical sanctions they could have imposed on him. It doesn’t get any worse for an ordained minister than defrocking. But a trial would have brought out all the other stuff too and anything he was found guilty of would have been made public. Personally I think that should have happened. But I’m also glad to see an ecclesiastical thug get his due. How often have we seen denominations just ignore abuses of their ministers? More often than not they get away with it. So the fact that RC Sproul Jr was defrocked should give us cause to praise his denomination, not condemn them or claim that RC Jr got away with anything. He’s suffered a blow from which he will never recover. It’s not like he can ever get ordained again by any legitimate mainline denomination.
January 13, 2014 at 1:53 pm
I guess I thought maybe they could’ve reported him to the authorities. But perhaps they didn’t have anyone willing to go on record.
January 12, 2014 at 6:00 pm
Thank you for your graciousness journey girl . May God heal us all
January 14, 2014 at 11:20 am
Somewhere in all this was a thread on Church Covenants.
A few days age, while perusing an old Baptist hymnal, I saw a sticker in the back that read, “Church Covenant” in fancy font with a dotted line on the bottom for signing one’s name.
The body of the covenant said among other basics, “We also engage to maintain family and secret devotion; to religiously educate our children; to seek the salvation of our kindred and acquaintances; to walk circumspectly in the world; to be just in our dealings, faithful in our engagements, and exemplary in our deportment; to avoid all tattling, backbiting and excessive anger.” .. and so on and so forth. Hadn’t ever seen one of these before and never had to sign one during my 30 years of church-going.
But there you have it.
P.S. There is no mention of excommunication of the heretic.
January 14, 2014 at 11:29 am
And don’t forget the ubiquitous, “to abstain from the sale and use of alcohol as a beverage” which still appear in the covenants pasted in the front of many, possibly most, SBC church hymnals.
January 15, 2014 at 3:13 pm
or in the weekly bulletin…..
January 14, 2014 at 11:40 am
Between having a church planter for a father, and then going to multiple post-secondary schools in multiple locations, I was a member of 12 different Southern Baptist churches between the ages of 10 and 30, and I can say with certainty that “that” church covenant showed up at nearly every one of them. But it was seldom referenced. I think the concept has fallen into disuse in the past century, and is only recently being revived in SBC churches.
January 15, 2014 at 2:05 pm
Jen, I have a DP audio disc set called, “Honorable Language: Peaceful, Siblings, Gracious Wives”. It’s un-listened to and it’s your for the asking, or it goes in the trash!
January 15, 2014 at 3:33 pm
Christine V, let me look and see what I have already and I’ll get back to you later tonight. I have a bunch of them coming today! Thanks for offering!
January 23, 2014 at 1:40 pm
I’m sorry it’s taken so long to get back to you. I had asked something somewhere in these comments about what materials you are looking for – DP only or others – and you said something to the effect of having already answered that. If you meant that you replied to my personal email that I had sent, I never received your reply. Anyway, I have 9 full albums and 1 partial album of RCSproul Jr’s Basement Tapes and some other VF material by other presenters. I also have Kevin Swanson Generations With Vision Conference 2010 and Swanson’s Second Mayflower book. Please let me know if you’re interested. Thank you.
January 23, 2014 at 3:44 pm
Been There, I am sorry if I missed responding to you. Some days I just can’t keep up with all the comments!
Yes, we would love to have all those resources for our research. Please email me for a mailing address. Thanks!